Site Support

[jeff]

Which of the following would you prefer be used to support the site?
(Read the poll comments for more info...)

 

[jeff]

Here's why I ask... Our bandwidth costs are going through the roof. We are now well over 150GB of transfer per month. This isn't surprising, as we have so much great content, thousands of photos, and all this great discussion. However, it was not something I expected to happen so quickly.

If you've priced bandwidth lately, you know this is not cheap. It far exceeds the basic hosting costs. If the trend continues, the amount of donations coming in will not cover the cost. Actually, our cash flow is currently negative and has been for some time. We don't receive enough donations every month to cover the cost. We have money in the bank from previous donation drives which is being drawn down to meet expenses, and donations do trickle in (thanks to all!!), so we're ok for a while. In six months, though, we've got a real problem.

So I'm forced to consider other options. The ones's I've considered are noted in the poll, but perhaps you have other ideas. I have absolutely no intention of ever shutting the doors and turning out the lights, but something has to give. We either need more income, or I have to find a way to keep the bandwidth within reasonable limits. Maybe that means limiting the number of photo or article downloads per user per day, or providing certain content only for supporting members.

Let's discuss! I'm anxious to hear your ideas, posted here or by email.

 

[Jim15]

I think a reasonable membership fee is fine.

 

[rtjw]

Jeff I dont see how you do it. The Iap has a lot of content. You and I have talked about it alot and the answer is still the same. I dont know. I am lucky that the company that I have hosting TPS does not charge for bandwidth. But just the server space can get high. Getting a dedicated server is 395.00 a month.
Members of both forums have been great with donations. But like you said, they dont come enough to pay everything.
I have thought about membership fees and advertising also. But the bad part of that is that I dont think there are enough members to support a membership fee and the advertising wouldnt help much either because most people dont want a lot of ads on the site. I have one small ad that comes with web wiz guide on there right now. I have to pay to have it removed and I am thinking of doing that soon.
I am lucky right now that I dont have to worry about it. I set aside a certain amount of money that I am willing to put on TPS. It should last a long time if I dont have to go to a dedicated server to soon.
So in a round about way, I have no answer for you. Of course you already knew that.[]

 

[vick]

I will admit that I am not good at donateing but will try to be better now that the problem has vome to my attention. I have tried to do my part by making and organizing tutorials. Any way you decide is fine with me but I might suggest another alternative is maybe membership fee to view the tutorials content while general posting remaining free. I assume that the large tutorial files being downloaded adds quite a bit to the bandwith.

 

[thetalbott4]

A membership fee is reasonable. It's no different than donations, except that each person using the site is donating equally and on a regular basis. Maybe it could be set up so that some things could be used by visitors for free (to get them interested) but full participation would require a small membership fee that coveres the basics of what you incur. If you then forsee any shortfalls, I'm sure putting the word out would spark donation drives to cover the situation.

 

[DFM]

If you charge a membership fee, then I am outta here. Perhaps, you can have a fee for posting photos into the photo gallery.

You may also look at cleaning up deleted photos in the gallery. I have deleted some old pens, but it appears that the photos are still on the server. That may save some bandwidth.

 

[gerryr]

I certainly wouldn't have any problem with a membership fee. What does AAW charge and I don't think they have anything like this at all. I pay $25/year to belong to my local woodturning club, we have monthly demos, a little mentoring(not much), a decent library and tool grinder that members can borrow. The amount of information I get here far exceeds the value of what I get from the local club. Would people really leave if the cost was $10-15? Two people can barely go to the movies for that anymore and all you get there is a couple hours of entertainment.

 

[dubdrvrkev]

What about requiring images to be hosted by poster. There are plenty of sites that will host images for free. Or maybe decreasing the amount allowed in albums or the time they are allowed to stay.
Like Mike, I am bad about donations, I just forget.
Would it be beneficial to you if I (we) linked our images to another site? I'm not all that net savvy so I don't know what impact that would have.
Other than that, an acceptably sized header or footer advert can be expected these days.

 

[reed43]

There is a saying nothing in life is free. I enjoy this forum very much, and as such I will gladly pay a membership fee.

 

[Rudy Vey]

I am all for a small membership fee, you may loose a few members/users but that always happens when something costs money (TANSTAAFL).
Donations are also always a good way. The question for me is: how much money is needed to keep IAP running now. These numbers could be the base for a membership fee. Increasing costs of the site can be funded by new memberships, i.e. we always have increased our member number in the last two years.

 

[DCBluesman]

Jeff - I hope you don't mind me diggin out this "old chestnut". A year or so ago I suggested that each of us set aside a pen per year and that the proceeds, yes the GROSS proceeds go towards keeping the doors open. We have a ton of members, even if you discount some who may no longer visit. Of that large number, if each of us donated one pen's worth of sales we would probably cover the costs pretty well. In that way we don't have to exclude turners who really may not be able to afford "dues". Also, we allow guests...which should be to the group's benefit.

In terms of housekeeping, I do believe that non-registered guests shouldn't have downloading privileges. Also, the DONATE button on the homepage should probably be made more prominent and, if you are using CSS, you could even have it appear on the forum pages.

What do the rest of you think???

 

[rtjw]

I agree with Lou. Guests should not have downloading privileges. If you dont want to become a member, then you dont get the benefits.
How do you consider GROSS PROCEEDS though. Is it a slimline or an emperor.

 

[dfurlano]

Bottom line is that you need to have a reliable source of revenue. Also I would suggest that you really look at what are the the top three or four activities using the most bandwidth and create a plan to reduce the need. We found on another site that avatars and posted images were the real issue. So we limited avatars to a very small size and all images that were posted clickable thumbnails.

I am willing to donate more or pay a membership and I like Lou's suggestion but you need to keep the issue in front of everyone.

 

[jeff]

Originally posted by rtjw
<br />...I am lucky that the company that I have hosting TPS does not charge for bandwidth.

Johnny, what does TPS transfer a month? I believe what you say, but it's hard to imagine a host not charging for bandwidth of the magnitude we're running. A generous hosting plan would include 10GB. Maybe they have not caught up with you yet []

I ran an ISP for three years, so I'm very familiar with the cost of bandwidth. One of the issues is that in a first class hosting facility (where this server is) you're paying for redundant, uncapped bandwidth, firewall management, etc.

To respond to the email I received that "a $10 a month package should do what you need", I'll say this. Consider just a plain vanilla T1, the basic business class circuit. 1.544 MBit/sec. That'll transfer about 500GB in a month. Price a T1 from a good provider and you'll see that's anywhere from $500-$2000 a month depending on circuit-miles. So if we're using a third of that capacity, you'd pay $150 at the least. We have uncapped bandwidth up to 45Mbps, and multiple redundant paths to the Internet.

I'd be very interested in hearing about ANY legitimate web host who will tolerate a couple hundred gigs of transfer for $10 a month. That just isn't a business model that works.

 

[rtjw]

Well, Jeff i think I get a special deal.[]

 

[Mudder]

Originally posted by DFM
<br />If you charge a membership fee, then I am outta here. Perhaps, you can have a fee for posting photos into the photo gallery.

You may also look at cleaning up deleted photos in the gallery. I have deleted some old pens, but it appears that the photos are still on the server. That may save some bandwidth.

A photo on the server eats 0 bandwidth. It's when your browser call for that picture that bandwidth is used.


I think a membership fee is a good idea and I also think setting aside 1 pen's proceeds is a good idea. Maybe a choice? I do agree with Lou that non registered guests should not be allowed to download. Non obtrusive ads would not be a problem for me either but I hope that all other avenues are exhausted before the ads appear.

My vote for the poll would be a button that is not there "all of the above"

 

[jeff]

Originally posted by DFM
<br />If you charge a membership fee, then I am outta here.

I can certainly understand that option would be distasteful to some people. It's the very least attractive option as far as I'm concerned.

Even if I have to foot the difference out of my own pocket, I'm never going to be "outta here". This is just way too satisfying and rewarding to me.

As an aside, I've had three offers to buy this web site, two from commercial outfits and one from an individual. I could have walked away with a sizeable wad of cash, but it's not something I considered for even a moment. I actually don't feel that it's "mine" to sell. This site really belongs to all of you, I'm just flipping some bits and pulling the levers behing the curtain. But it's quite amazing what a site like this with documented visitor traffic is worth []

Originally posted by DFM
You may also look at cleaning up deleted photos in the gallery. I have deleted some old pens, but it appears that the photos are still on the server. That may save some bandwidth.

Those don't cost bandwidth, just disk, which is dirt cheap.

 

[jscola]

A membership fee is fine with me. I think this a great & informative site!

 

[woodpens]

Jeff - You've done more than anyone could ask. I believe you should be reimbursed for all expenses plus something for your time. I personally don't like ads. My suggestion would be for an annual membership fee that covers all costs. There could be a free basic access level and full access for those who support the site. I would like to see it where a benefit auction would be used toward your access fee. For example, if the fee were $50 per year (just an example) I could auction off some pen blanks. If they sell for $50 or more, I am covered. Obviously, administering whatever method you choose is going to require more of your time.

Whatever you choose, I will support you. Nobody should be expected to do this out of their own pocket.

 

[DCBluesman]

Originally posted by rtjw
<br />...How do you consider GROSS PROCEEDS though. Is it a slimline or an emperor.

There's no real answer for that, Johnny. In fact, many folks don't sell their pens at all. A challenge for them would be to find $20 (a low slimline price) once a year to pay for the value of the site.

I don't remember all of the statistics that Jeff posted a couple of months ago, but I'm sure we have a few hundred folks that are on the site at least weekly. Multiply $20 (or more, hopefully) times 300 very active members and you quickly get to $6,000. $500 a month may not pay all of the bills, but it's a lot more than we're collecting today I'd bet!

 

[airrat]

Jeff I am willing to pay a membership fee or donate more (which I need to do btw). If you dont mind and maybe it will help some understand more. Can you tell us approx how much a month or year this runs. I don't really have a clue.

 

[Ligget]

I would gladly pay a membership fee, whatever it costs.
For all the brilliant content that is in the IAP forum and that helps us make better pens after all!!
But I really think under NO circumstances should Jeff ever have to dip into his own pockets!!![:0][]

 

[wood-of-1kind]

How about a donation of one(1) pen per member and auctioning off the pens right here on the IAP site. I for one would gladly participate and 'talk' with real dollars. I'm also fine with the donation drives that are currently in place, it's a shame that we are unable to generate greater revenue.

How about a proceed from classifieds going back to IAP? I've sold some items here and would be willing to offer a reasonable percentage of my proceeds.

-Peter-[]

 

[its_virgil]

My thoughts on this is to charge a membership fee and even have levels of membership. I love this place and would pay for membership. Many will and many will not. Those of us who enjoy this site, who get lots of worthwhile info from it and who are givers to the site in both pen knowldedge and $$ will continue to do so.

I would give a pen for auction, but someone has to auction it, someone has to buy it, and someone has to run it, and someone has to collect the money....mdmbership fees seem like a such a better way. When my kids were in youth soccer and othere sports, I refused to sell the normal stuff they sell to raise money. I would much rather give an equal amount of money that the candy, etc would raise instead of having my kids and me trying to sell the stuff. Same with pens....Just how many pens can we sell? How often....? Membership has its privlidges and those privledges cost $$$$.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

 

[Ron in Drums PA]

There is a good chance I'm missing something here, so don't shoot me!

http://ipower.com/

250Gig BW per month 10gig HD space for $7.95 a month
500Gig BW per month 15gig HD space for $12.95 a month

 

[jeff]

Well, I'll contact them. I'm guessing it's not guaranteed, uncapped.

 

[dfurlano]

Lets shoot Ron anyways...[]

 

[rtjw]

Ron, the thing about those web hosting plans is that most of them suck. They have their own ways they want your databse to be done, they have their own way to upload files, they have their own way to back up etc. It may sound cheap, but when you are dealing with a lot of information, it just isnt worth it.

 

[Ron in Drums PA]

I like the idea of a memebership fee, even though I cast my vote for donations

I really think the greatest thing about IAP is the easy access that everybody has to this site. Start charging a membership and the personality of IAP will change. I just not sure if it the change will be for better.

 

[jeff]

Some notes about our needs...

The reason you can buy hosting packages so cheaply (not considering bandwidth for a sec...) is because they are shared server environments. It's not unusual for a host to put several hundred sites on one server.

This is not really much of an issue when most of the sites are serving up static content. However, sites like ours use active scripting, which is an entirely different server load profile. Every time you load a page, hundreds to thousands of lines of code execute to query the database, run back-end logic, check permissions, and so on, ad nauseum. Our site started out in a shared environment, butwe quickly had to move to a dedicated server. Last month we had almost 1.2 million page views. That's dedicated server territory.

These shared server environments also play tricks with DNS and mail servers. Instead of giving you a dedicated IP address, they use host headers. I won't go into the gory details, but it's just not the best way to do things.

Then there is the issue of the database. For performance and stability reasons, we use Microsoft SQL Server. Yes, MySQL is free, and we do use it for some things (such as the Y! search databases), but for our purposes, MSSQL is the best choice and just that service is $50 a month. Most shared host environments don't provide this. In fact, the one Ron recommended says this on their web site: "iPower servers do not provide MSSQL (Microsoft SQL) Database capability. We do not anticipate supporting this in the near future."

We also use "server components". These are specialized tools that run on the server and are use by the active scripts to do certain things more efficiently than they could be done otherwise. Things like resizing and manipulating images, generating thumbnails, handling your photo uploads, etc. These things cost money to buy and license yearly, but without them things run a whole lot slower. These are sometimes available on shared plans, but when they are, they're expensive.

Finally, there is tech support. I can pick up the phone 24x7 and talk to our server administrator. These $10 a month joints host so many web sites that they depend on automated systems to create and administer sites, FAQs and knowledge bases to provide tech support, and they are hell to get on the phone.

So while there are other options out there, some of which look good at first, you'll have to trust that I've done my best to balance the cost of our hosting needs with availability, stability, tech support, etc.

 

[Woodnknots]

Why not charge a fee (maybe a percentage of sale price) for all those that advertise items for sale, whether individual or business? Obviously group buys should be exempt, because everyone benefits, and it's not for profit, but why should we be able to profit (monitarily) from all Jeff's hard work and not have to give some back to the "Godfather"? We could do it on the honor system, but it wouldn't be 100% honor system, since the add is there for everyone to see...

 

[gerryr]

I'm not sure if this would work, but would there be a way to charge for each post? If there are 1.2 million page views I would think posts must be at least 200,000 per month. At 1 cent each, that would be $2,000 a month. Of course, Dario and JimGo might have to take out a loan.[]

 

[woodpens]

Originally posted by gerryr
<br />I'm not sure if this would work, but would there be a way to charge for each post? If there are 1.2 million page views I would think posts must be at least 200,000 per month. At 1 cent each, that would be $2,000 a month. Of course, Dario and JimGo might have to take out a loan.[]

Personally, I don't think anything should be done to discourage participation. That would impact the quality of content.

 

[jeff]

Originally posted by airrat
<br />If you dont mind and maybe it will help some understand more. Can you tell us approx how much a month or year this runs. I don't really have a clue.

Tom - Here's the whole story. The total bill for the dedicated web server, access to the MSSQL database server, and excess bandwidth is approximately $350 a month. I've been drawing $250 a month out of the donations PayPal account. I pay the $100 difference.

 

[Jerryconn]

I would be willing to pay a reasonable membership fee. I also believe that the classifieds should pay a small percentage or amount for the listings here. Definitely keep the donations coming in. I also agree with others, you should not have to pay for this out of your pocket. There is a large amount of great info. here and I have improved the quality of my pens dramatically by picking up tips/ideas available. It is a great place and I want the flow of info. and ideas to continue, I will do my part to assist with that.

 

[jeff]

Originally posted by gerryr
<br />I'm not sure if this would work, but would there be a way to charge for each post? If there are 1.2 million page views I would think posts must be at least 200,000 per month. At 1 cent each, that would be $2,000 a month. Of course, Dario and JimGo might have to take out a loan.[]

There were 8191 posts in April.

One thing to remember is that while some of the ideas are good, their implementation is difficult. There is no canned mechanism to charge for posts, or ads, or the like. Making that work fairly and smoothly would be a big job.

With very very few exceptions, the "big number" posters have already donated way more than a penny a post.

Interesting statistics: On an average day: 250 <b>members</b> and 300 <b>unregistered guests</b> visit. Since we started accepting donations, 187 individuals have contributed. Some of those 187 have donated multiple times, some more than a dozen times.

The point is that 187 people (well, 188 if you include me) support this site. I'm not griping about that. Not everyone is in a financial position to donate. The whole purpose of this site is the free and open exchange of ideas and education, and that includes people who can't or choose not to donate.

Great discussion!

 

[PenWorks]

Well about the only bandwidth I know, is the width of a centerband []

I am all for an annual membership. I like Virgil's idea of level of membership.
Several sites do this for those that help support sites.

This is a great place to hang out, Jeff and the members have made it that way.
It still is a shame, that this place is supported by less than 5% of the membership.

 

[Dario]

Originally posted by woodpens
<br />

Originally posted by gerryr
<br />I'm not sure if this would work, but would there be a way to charge for each post? If there are 1.2 million page views I would think posts must be at least 200,000 per month. At 1 cent each, that would be $2,000 a month. Of course, Dario and JimGo might have to take out a loan.[]

Personally, I don't think anything should be done to discourage participation. That would impact the quality of content.

Gerry,

This will be counter productive...before you know it no one will be posting anything "meaty" anymore (not that I do []).

Anyway, it is a shame that only 188 members donates/support this site! [:0] I know that some really can't even if they want to, but I can't believe it will be this low percentage wise to the member count.

I am for an annual membership and classifieds fee (or percentage). Pop-up ads will be the last option for me.

 

[Dario]

Originally posted by DCBluesman
<br />I do believe that <b>non-registered guests shouldn't have downloading privileges. Also, the DONATE button on the homepage should probably be made more prominent</b> and, if you are using CSS, you could even have it appear on the forum pages.

What do the rest of you think???

I agree with Lou.