Members Only?

[jwoodwright]

I started turning pens in 1998. Mike Cripps 1996 Book "Turning Pens and Desk Accessories" was my first book. Very little info out there. There was the Internet and some articles by Russ Fairfield, Richard Kleinhenz and others. Then Penn state had the Pen Crafter, a 4-6 page publication, available quarterly. Then Kip and Rex's book Turning Pens and Pencils. Randy Smith had an article on acrylics and Corian in early 2000.
Being in Alaska, was charged extra (Alaska, Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands, Hawaii and Guam) for shipping and handling, then forced to use snail mail as UPS and Fed Ex only offered Next Day. USPS doesn't ship Hazardous Materials; so, couldn't get all the neat liquid finishes. Pen state even had a dipping one that was crystal clear and hard.
So, back to Internet and Russ Fairfield's site and made his "Friction Polish" as I was tired of Hut Sticks. Then Hut produced a book on Pen making. Continued pen turning and joined the Yahoo Penturners in 2003. Come 2004, heard of a new site, lurked and visited and finally joined in 2004. Then Barry Gross's Books were added to my library.
Today, the amount of pen making information is huge. Just about all the Woodworking Magazines have done articles on pen making.

When I joined, everyone shared and was ready and willing to help anyone. Always a big hello and welcome. We had a calm group and we had some real hot heads. Jeff was forced to let some go. This was sad, as some of those who left had great ideas and were true artists. Hot heads don't add any value to a group and I understand that letting them go wasn't a easy choice.
I've learned a lot since then and my pens have vastly improved. Looking at the pictures, I see I'm not the only one to improve. We have so many talented artists. Everyone has something to add and that too makes us strong. This is still one big friendly group where the help is only a question away. If you have a process that is a money maker, I say go for it. If you want to share, then do so. We need to promote pen turning. If you make money, that's up to you and the IRS.
We still have the best group of people, just look at prayers needed or help needed. Willing to help anyone, sight unseen. Just knowing that someone, somewhere is worst off than you are. This is what makes a strong group, Members taking care of Members. This is why I'm proud to be a Member.

I'm done, I know, I was done before I started...

 

[CrazyBear]

In the beginning I would have voted to close at least part of the site to the general public. BUT after reading this thread carefully I realise we cant and have voted no.

Why
Because we have 6 pages of reasoned agrgument from both sides of the fence and no one has fallen out over it. The only reason we have that is because we are comfortable enough with each other( even though many of us are complete strangers) to say what we think and most importantly to LISTEN to what others have to offer.


This is a great site (ONE of two that I visit EVERY DAY) where I have learned a huge amount in a short space of time. That information was freely given and to be honest it has changed me a little. I am more helpfull in my attitude these days.

Lets all agree to Keep the site as it is. To those who are being inovative, this is a great place to show your work. where better to find people who can appreciate what you do, I do not believe that ANY member here would steal another members design and claim it as their own. We cant acount for those outside who are not yet members. Keep the secret but do show us your work, Thats why you created it in the first place

 

[RichAldrich]

I read the forum for months prior to joining. I was reviewing older postings that had pretty much been hashed out. I did not feel comfortable posting at that point. I wanted to achieve some familiarity with the forum. I have been turning about four years and do mostly pens. I was working a project that I needed help with so I had to join and ask a question. I was nervous about how some would respond to it. My question was received favorably and everyone was great that responded.

 

[Daniel]

Ron, Thanks, As I said I am not sure, and I really ment that. I am not in a position to know, or do I pay enough attention to the guild to know. The point i was trying to make was that that the most advanced turners isolating themsleves may, and I repeat may not be the best way to go about achieving advancment. there are two views I see to look at that question. one from the view of the yahoo group and it's format. I don't think you and I could hold this conversation very well there. So yes a side group was very beneficial. in comparison to a group with this format where seperate conversations are going on all the time, not so much. of course the guild may have the issue of stolen ideas licked as well. As far as thing like segmentation. I did not mean to say it did not happen on the yahoo group. I just never saw it on the scale that I can see it here. I suspect partially due to inability to even find it.
Since this thread is about wether the doors should be closed.
What was the impact of the guild, on the yahoo group? last I checked the yahoo group is nearly abandoned. Is that because of groups like this one? which I basically see as simply user friendlier. or as a result that the best of the best isolated themselves and you really cannot find new member help there. I know I stopped going there when it became the norm to practically flame a new member for asking the same old new member questions. I was told by every one of the original members of the guild, that they fully intended to continue to participate in the general group. It has been so long since I have seen a post from some of them, I wonder if they are still even turning pens. So what is the cost and benefit of isolating the best talent? That really could be the not so obvious question in this thread.

 

[Fangar]

Without reading back through everything... I would say no. You will lose new folks that would decide to register once they saw the great content here. You would also gain tons of folks that register and then are never to be seen of again.

Cheers,

Fangar

 

[ed4copies]

Hey, Fangar's back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nice to see you!!!

 

[Mudder]

Originally posted by jeff

Originally posted by ctwxlvr

BUT, some content should not require membership.

Such as?

My motivation is to possibly address the issues raised in this topic. If we get too carried away on not sharing, we'll end up just talking in vague generalities and I'm not sure that we can continue to push the state of the art as we have.

The only area I would suggest that we close to non-members is "Casual Conversation". It seems that the majority of "flamefests" happen there and it does not show our best.

 

[arioux]

I just did a google on wood pen. Found hundreds of site talking about wood pen or selling them. On top of the list, Woodpenpro, with acces to anyone to the kit price. Should we ask him to make his site private because we don't want people to find out about our profit margin?. Better let them see hour marketing section and see what' involved with pen making beside the kit cost. There were three reseller on the first page. 10' and 10's of articles on pen making on the following pages.
Geee...what do we have to hide . Professionnal secrets? If you want to share do it, if you don't want well don't period. What's next, ask Jeff to invest in a $100,000 firewall to protect your idea?

Go back and read the site mission, that is what brought me to this site and probably many more actual or to be penturners.
You don't fit in that mission? well........... It would be to Jeff to change it but the words "share experiences, and promote the art of penturning" should disapear.

Alfred

 

[Ron Mc]

Daniel,
I understand your point completely. I have always been a huge fan of the Yahoo group but I think what has happened is that the format makes it more difficult to post than other forums.
I think I'll start posting there as well as the IAP, TPS, and PMG to see if I can't liven it up.

 

[Firefyter-emt]

Even I don't have time to read thru all of this, but my thoughts is that I think a partialy open one with member only sections is a great way to go. It would be ncie to be able to talk about things where buyers can not see it. Some people only look at "wow, he only paid $2.00 for that kit, I am getting ripped off" and not about the time and cost it takes to create a pen.

 

[barb03]

I don't post much mainly because I've only made about 30 pens (work too much) and don't feel I have the experience to post anything. I did come to this site and read a few things before I joined and don't think it should be strickly members only. Since I am teaching myself how to make pens I love this site when I have a question I can always find an answer here. You guys are all great! I could understand if the pricing, kits and group buys were members only though.

 

[palmermethod]

I am a paying member of several non-penturning sites. One in particular, requires a paid membership to access their private for sale, wanted or trade ads. All other info is free. I think that is a fair bargain since paying members may offer better deals or trades to fellow members instead of a non-member buying something cheap and selling it on Ebay.

On the other hand, one of the oldest memberships I have is with the Modern Library collectors group, www.modernlib.com. They have just eliminated memberships altogether and are relying on PayPal contributions. And I do contribute what I can to them and others but many sites can't "keep the lights on" on contribs alone.

It's a hard world and the web is being taken over by huge commercial interests. Like Ebay.

I like the feeling of being part of a private group. Where ideas can be shared and business conducted without my name showing up in a paper or 60 minutes. An exaggeration but I'm not paranoid for nothing!

I'll go along with the group but open membership, on all areas, does tend to limit creative(?) conversation.

Love to you all............

 

[jwoodwright]

I owe an apology, when I said "hotheads", I wasn't grouping all those who left or where forced to leave.

We did have some members who "stirred the pot" just because they could. Cozee comes to mind. Then we had members who refused to be labeled or insulted. Eaglesc comes to mind.

 

[sbell111]

One problem with only allowing members to have access to the site is that it is more difficult than it appears to become a member. Yesterday morning, I attempted to sign up, but I never received my confirmation email. Truth be told, I have no idea if this post is even going to take because of that.

The problem that I have with requiring a certain number of posts before a person can view 'special' areas of the site is that it rewards pointless posts.

Personally, I've never turned a pen. Therefore, I'm not going to be able to post my awesome accomplishments. My wife and her dad do the pen turning.

They got into this game because her dad, who was rounding out his seventies, began to be inactive. Our fear was that unless we got him into something that he enjoyed doing, we would lose him. She got him to take a penturning class at Woodcraft with her and he enjoyed it; so they have been making pens. They haven't been making fancy pens like many of you are, but their pens are often very nice.

My part of it is supply-side. I source wood and pen kits for them, stabilize the unstable, and make PR blanks. While I have p0ut to good use some of the things that I've read on these forums, mostly this information merely tweaked my previous processes, rather than revolutionized it. The perfect example of this is vacuum stabilization. I had been doing it in a pickle jar for a long time when my jar's lid's seal went bad. I noticed here that people were using paint pots for this, so I bought one and converted it to use. Once you think 'paint pot', you don't really need specific instuctions to make it work.

Regarding 'stolen ideas', if a person is concerned about that, they shouldn't post their work online. Personally, if I see that someone has made a cool pen, I'm going to think about how we could make something similar. If I figure it out and Cathy can make it, we'll sell the thing and not feel bad about it.

You see, I don't consider us to be in direct competition with any of the other participants on this site. If we go to a big show and notice that someone is selling a pen that we don't have or has a popular wood that we don't, I'm going to suggest to Cathy they we get on that bandwagon and I'm not going to feel a darn bit bad about it and I would totally expect anyone else to do the exact same thing.

That's my rambling position. I wonder if it will post.

 

[GaryMGg]

... "... he only paid $2.00 for that kit, I am getting ripped off"....

This and similar arguments have been offered on numerous accounts and I personally believe it's a straw man.

Here's a pen that uses a $6.00 kit: Darryl's Segmentation
Knowing the effort involved in making that pen, I'd put a retail value of $300 on it.

IF I made it, would I be bothered if a potential customer knew I had roughly $6.00 worth of hardware in this $300 pen? I couldn't care less. The kit is a vehicle to carry the workmanship. If they don't want it because it's `a rippoff', they can go elsewhere.
Good luck to them.

In the scenario above, I stated the value of the actual kit used but it's a minor item compared to the overall value of the pen. If the 6 bucks throws you for a loop, imagine it's a $25.00 kit; the relative value of the kit compared to the overall value of the pen is negligible. It's not the kit's cost that matters when we're talking about craftsmanship.

BTW, there are forums on this site that ARE only open to members. [:0]
If you haven't been through at least one of them, you've missed a tremendous learning experience. [8D]

 

[RogerGarrett]

I haven't taken time to read all the pages of opinions here - so my viewpoint may already have been represented by someone [)] but here goes:

I joined the IAP after reading a great deal of the forum over a period of many days. I typically do not join groups unless I can see what has been going on in the group by freely reading the content. In fact, while I am a member of a very similar Pen Group online [}] I am unable to access much of the information if I don't sign in. As a result, I very rarely use that webiste. Some of you are members there as well.

I like the IAP just the way it is!

Best,
Roger Garrett

 

[drawknife]

Poll question as stated is whether the entire discussion forum should be members only, I think that should be a no. Being a fairly new member that strikes me as sort of elitist. Had it been that way when I ran across it in Google I would have probably passed on it.

Daniel's comments intrigue me somewhat, I might be the only one that didn't know there was a group that had seperated itself from the rest of us, if thats how it works.

 

[W3DRM]

Wow, this question has certainly generated lots of discussion! As a very new member (I joined in Oct of 2007) I would like to say that I have mostly lurked on this site after joining. I wanted to see what the group was about and whether it appealed to my needs. I have gleaned much more information from this forum than I have given. This is a friendly forum and provides its members quick responses to their questions. The sharing of ideas is phenomenal!

I voted NO on making this a members-only forum. To me it would diminish the value of the forum and most likely make others look elsewhere. That would be a lose lose situation in my mind. I am a member of another woodworking forum that just recently posed the same question about limiting viewing and posting to members-only. The question was hotly debated but eventually the owners of the forum decided to leave it alone.

I wonder how many lurkers grab the links of the members posting here to see what pens they are making and then eventually make a purchase. For those of you who sell on-line, do any of you ask your customers where they found your website link? You might be surprised to find that some of them were just lurkers on this forum.

There has also been some discussion in this thread regarding the PMG and it's member-only status. Personally, that becomes a challenge to me to learn the techniques and to develop my own technical skills to a higher level so I can one day submit my "masterpiece" to the Guild for their review and hopefully their acceptance. Basically, it's up to me to make the decision to grow in my knowledge of pen making. If I choose not to then I can only blame myself for not being able to join the elite group in the PMG.

 

[gregorymatherly]

I think the Forum should be open to ALL persons who have a comment or suggestion, to exclude anyone from the making an important opinion on Pen making might deprive the rest of us of a valuable suggestion a newcomer might have who has not signed up yet. We should welcome everyone.

 

[hunter-27]

I think some should be available but not ALL

 

[rhe221]

By the Gods... all this talk of snobbery and arrogance and greed. If Human society hadn't made it this far without the sharing of ideas we would still be in the dark ages after the fall of the greater Roman Empire caused the secrets of concrete to be forgotten for 100s of years.

It is the sharing of ideas and art that has caused the great cultures of the world to thrive and grow in greatness and beauty. 1000s of years of free enterprise, open training with the sharing of knowledge and expertise, be it in idea based theory or hands on showing of how to do something of better quality or the skill of making something with even more beauty would not have allwed us today to enjoy the masterpieces of wood, stone, metal and glass that infests the world over for us to draw inspiration from.

Keep things free and open for all to see and learn from, and let whose whi hide their secrets be the Great Masters they so claim themselves to be. So what if they scoff at people "borrowing" ideas. Michealangelo or Donetello today would find Great joy in the fact that their art has inspired generations of greatness since they made the creations they did. If sertain people want to hide their best work, then let then, for there is a great chance anyhow that somone has alreat used that technique in another art form or wood craft somwhere else and others are seeing it there. History will judge them as what they choose to let the world see them as, untill they decide to make history for themselves amongst their peers.

Keep it open to all. Share beauty knowledge and let the world grow stronger.

 

[RonInSpringTX]

Maybe I shouldn't throw my 2 cents in 'cuz I've only been a member for a few months, only been a turner for 3 yrs, but have been a woodworker for 25+ yrs. I don't think this site should be restricted in any way. I know I've not made that many posts but still, the knowledge I've learned has been good, not something that should be "members only". If someone wanted to know how I finished a pen, or a set of shelves, or an entertainment center with, I'd tell them. I'd tell them how I made it, i.e.cut it, sanded it, put it together, & finished it, the time it took and ALL the SETBACKS that were involved. This would, (I hope), make that customer/person appreciative of the effort & would gladly pay my price. (which many have done) I look to this site on knowledge on turning pens. Maybe there's a different site for bowls, thought about starting that. Anywho...as far as the "stealing" or stuff being copyrighted or patented, gimme a break!!! This is a CRAFT & you can't get a patent on a craft!!! My wife makes those dolls that you stand up in the corner, we call them "Pouty Babies" (most relate to "Time Out" Babies, whatever) We've had several people ask if we could make them in an Astros uniform, or Rockets or whatever. My wife can do anything on a sewing machine, but she can't do that, because they are copyrighted! If the customer buys the infant sportswear then, sure, she'll make it. Same thing on here!! I've wanted to maybe look into casting Astros pen clips/tops or whatever but I can't!!! Nobody on here is "stealing" a design for a pen/whatever. More power to them if they download that pic/whatever....it's up to them to make it. I designed a kitchen paper towel/ kitchen towel rack with stained/swirled glass that catches the sun in spring/summer months. What do I want for that?? ZERO!!! IT'S A CRAFT!!!!!!!QUIT WHINING!!!!!

okay, I'll get off my soapbox now!!!
thanx all, Ronnie

 

[TellicoTurning]

Jeff,
I didn't read all 7 pages on this topic, but enough I think to suggest maybe limit posting to members... i.e., you can read, but to post you have to register. I run into this on other forums I visit.

 

[Jarheaded]

Jeff,
I sat and read this forum for about a year before I decided to join. If I had to join before I could see what it was about, I would have moved on to the next forum site. I also have several kids that are learning how to make sawdust in my shop and they read a lot of the posts and come in with questions about things that they want to learn to do.
Thanks, Johnnie

 

[dweir]

I am still a noob to this board, but here is my .02 I think that some sections should be closed to non-members, but the general forums should be read-only and require one to sign up before posting. I used to run a BBS back in the early 90's and was a Fido mail hub/tosser for a large part of Central Florida. I used to limit access (time) for non-members, more time for members, and even more time to ones that "contributed" either money or shareware files..
JMHO.

Dave

 

[JD4x4]

Hi all. I'm a brand new member, and I feel a bit bad about joining really, because I've yet to make my first pen (but I've got the supplies.. start in a few days!!), and therefor can't actually call myself a penturner.. but here's my p.o.v. and why I voted yes:

I don't care for 'elite' people, groups or orgs, and hate businesses that have a "closed" product market & pipeline. But at the same time I understand that there are things that should be, well, regulated for lack of a better word. There are some who feel that in today's world market there are enough 'customers' for any amount of vendors. I know this from my 20 years with automotive manufacturers as I have heard it from within oddly enough! I'm not so sure I agree with that line of thought completely though, but generally any product market is likely to be larger than most would imagine. I worked for a self-named "niche" market vehicle manufacturer who also had a very strong customer base that were enthusiasts, and our employees were also product "zealots". I find hand-crafted pens a similar subject in a lot of ways. Having said that, I think it's necessary to have a philosophy that promotes both a product and a craft, and encourages enthusiasm for the product and the craft, and protects "market stature" as well as livelihoods that depend on it.

Whew- Meaning I joined because I appreciated the artistic and the technical aspects of pen making and wanted to learn more because I think I'm going to LOVE doing this, but I am also looking for income and wanted to find and share resources & techniques because if I'm any good at it I currently need $$!. Lastly, I'm also aware of how the internet can change things for both good as well as bad.

In my mind, I'm looking for a site that promotes the art & craft, but also protects the professional who thinks of it as an art & a craft (not "e-Bay for pens"). I'd like to see two sites in one- a public as well as a somewhat private section. There should be some "hoops to jump through" to learn/discuss advanced techniques of an artistic & production nature, and probably for sharing of volume suppliers, etc. My opinion.

 

[ransom]

OK, I just joined this forum so I could post questions. I also participate in othe Forums unrelated to this one so I am not new to this environment.

Actually it sounds to me like there are a bunch of elitists here who have decided they don't want to communicate with the unwashed masses. I was hoping I would be able to get some friendly advice on making pens. I clearly am wrong.

Look it's just making pens folks, this is not some earth shattering theory that should not be shared.

too bad.

I'm outa here and I'm sure you're glad you don't have to lower yourselves to my lowly level.

 

[Proud_Poppa_of_2]

Clifford -

I think if you had looked through the forums more before posting, you would have seen that we're all about sharing information without regard to the experience level of the person in need. You also would have seen by the comments in this particular thread and from the results of the poll that spawned this thread that the majority of us are in favor of keeping the forums public.

If you think this isn't true, post a question and see what kind of response you get. Better yet, take time to introudce yourself to us in the "Introductions" forum and see what kind of a reception you get. This is a community and we treat each other as such. You can choose to be a part of our community, or you can choose just to pass through town. The choice is yours. But, please be fair and refrain from judging us until you truly get to know us.

 

[alphageek]

Wow... All in all Cliffords reaction surprises me. Anyone "familiar" with msg boards, and a director level position at work should know that there is a variety of people - and everyone has there own opinions.

However, I have to say - I havn't been here and for him to say there is elitists here that don't help - nothing can be further from the truth. This is by far the best board I've been on (and the only one where I've won something 'for nothing'). The whole board is viewable w/o even creating an account. Even this thread wasn't about elitism, it was about protecting things from being stolen.

Now that i'm off my salt box - I hope Clifford isn't "otta here".. I think he'll find things are way friendlier than he thinks. And just to say it again - THANKS again to all who have helped me move my hobby along.

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

Clifford have you read any other threads on this forum? Today alone there were over 30 replys to question from new members,had a member from England show how to make a closed end mandrel.You called us a bunch of elitists boy are you off base.For a guy who spent 27years with IBM and now works for the school system I'm sure glad your not teaching our children,we sure don't need our kids learning to jump to conclusions without merit.You really needed to read all the different forums here before insulting most of us with words like ELITISTS,UNWASHED MASSES....Come to think of it yep I'm an Elitists if it that means that I read into a post such as yours as someone who ............never mind have a good life.






you

Originally posted by ransom

OK, I just joined this forum so I could post questions. I also participate in othe Forums unrelated to this one so I am not new to this environment.

Actually it sounds to me like there are a bunch of elitists here who have decided they don't want to communicate with the unwashed masses. I was hoping I would be able to get some friendly advice on making pens. I clearly am wrong.

Look it's just making pens folks, this is not some earth shattering theory that should not be shared.

too bad.

I'm outa here and I'm sure you're glad you don't have to lower yourselves to my lowly level.

 

[its_virgil]

Sounds to me like he is trolling....don't take the bait!
Do a good turn daily!
Don

Originally posted by ransom

OK, I just joined this forum so I could post questions. I also participate in othe Forums unrelated to this one so I am not new to this environment.

Actually it sounds to me like there are a bunch of elitists here who have decided they don't want to communicate with the unwashed masses. I was hoping I would be able to get some friendly advice on making pens. I clearly am wrong.

Look it's just making pens folks, this is not some earth shattering theory that should not be shared.

too bad.

I'm outa here and I'm sure you're glad you don't have to lower yourselves to my lowly level.

 

[Daniel]

Hey Folks, it is pretty obvious to anyone that spends even a little time around here that Clifford is way off base. I just don't want to see anyone get really bent over a comment that has nothing to do with reality. Discussing issues that effect long time penturners with more invested in the craft is just as much support as helping the new turner.

 

[Poppy]

I think Don hit the nail squarely on the head.

Originally posted by its_virgil

Sounds to me like he is trolling....don't take the bait!
Do a good turn daily!
Don

 

[RonInSpringTX]

hey Clifford, this blog didn't start out talking about your subject, but it sure has started too!! You CAN get ANY info you want on here, for free!!! If someone doesn't know the answer to your problem, chances are they will find it, or already had it & post a link, or whatever!!!What do you need help with??? Beside's your attitude towards the site?? I'm about to ask a question in a new post, can't wait for the help I get for that. Like the Pittsburgh Pirates in the 70's....& Sister Sledge said...
"We are family...all of my brothers & me" or whatever... lol. (I'm an Astros fan anyway!!) Clifford, you are more than welcome, believe me, if you're just starting, you'll need our advice!!!!!

 

[boxxmaker]

I believe forums should be open to anyone,but they would have to join before being able to post or get into certain sites.As for stealing ideas,if somebody wants to steal an idea,they will figure out a way to do it.

 

[goose]

i just join the forum,an belong to many hunting forum's an a call making forum..
i voted no an here is why.artist an there creativeity should be shared...idea's are like a small snow ball on the side of a mountain.as it goes down hill it grow's.
as it collect's more snow.

it's great to share knowledge with other's an if someone asked me the how to's i'd help them.
an they will either find a better or easier way,an share the knowledge with other's.

see-ya
steve

 

[igran7]

I'm sorry, but I really don't understand why this is an issue. Why such opposition & resistance to becoming a member. If someone is interested in pen turning and wants information regarding the process, then they should create a user profile and be done with it. It doesn't cost anything, there aren't any stipulations or obligations imposed. If someone wants to puruse the pages of IAP they should be a member. I was a member for two years before I posted any pictures or participated in any discussion. I was not harmed in the process, nor did ANY member pressure me to participate. This is a place where like minds can gather to share like ideas with one another, if someone is not interested in the ideas, then this isn't the association for them, if they are interested then join. Simple as that.

 

[PaulStroik]

I am a new member to this forum. Since this was the first thread since joining I decided to immediately jump in and vote. I voted NO and here is my reason. I have been considering joining the Turning Community for some time but decided to do some research first to determine if I would really enjoy this hobby. This site was one of several I have been watching for information on Turning as well as members participation and their attitudes. I stay away from sites that are not monitored for SPAM advertising and where members do not get along. Attitude makes or breaks a forum IMO. So far, I have found this site to be very good so I am onboard.

 

[rherrell]

And we're all glad to have you on board, Paul. Why not go over and introduce yourself, it's painless!

 

[medicsteele]

Having someone register (for certain forums) should pose no problems. The site itself should remain open to encourage fellow pen makers. The site as it stands is FANTASTIC and as a relatively new pen maker I am continually amazed at the amount of expertise displayed, and also very thankful to all posters. I have just taught my grand daughters, aged 10 and 11 how to turn pens and they visit this site to get ideas. Thanks to all.