Close IAP wood chart and remove the forum

[phillywood]

Close IAP wood chart and remove the forum.
Folks I need your vote to ask Jeff to close the wood chart and remove the forum, since giving it a seperate forum caused no visit or contribution to the chart. It became another additional forum that would take space on your screen. I would apprecaite your feed back.

And, curtis, no you can not remove this thread since we need to know the answer.

It's apparent that no traffic and no input was made to the chart after it was moved to the subforum so we need to find out once and for all. the idea of giving it a house in the back stage killed it. Out of site, out of mind.

 

[alphageek]

The idea is sound.... The information you have gathered is good.... Why destroy something that is already there?

Who knows what the next step for it may be - I know that you feel it has died, but I also know that there were others that thought it was taking up too much on the new items. I really believe that there is good places for this kind of information, I'm just not sure we've found the right balance yet.

As for removing this thread - I don't see anything wrong with it (but then I'm new at this part of things)... But you telling Curtis that he can't will have no bearing on that - I fully don't believe he removes things without the proper reasons (or I wouldn't have agreed to join the moderators). However, if he has a valid reason, it will go - no matter what you believe.

As for the outcome of the thread.... You can ask.. Even if 100% of the votes say so... all you can do is ask.

 

[MesquiteMan]

Since you are telling me what I can and can not delete on IAP, why don't you go TELL Jeff to immediately remove the forum?!

 

[phillywood]

The idea is sound.... The information you have gathered is good.... Why destroy something that is already there?

Who knows what the next step for it may be - I know that you feel it has died, but I also know that there were others that thought it was taking up too much on the new items. I really believe that there is good places for this kind of information, I'm just not sure we've found the right balance yet.

As for removing this thread - I don't see anything wrong with it (but then I'm new at this part of things)... But you telling Curtis that he can't will have no bearing on that - I fully don't believe he removes things without the proper reasons (or I wouldn't have agreed to join the moderators). However, if he has a valid reason, it will go - no matter what you believe.

As for the outcome of the thread.... You can ask.. Even if 100% of the votes say so... all you can do is ask.

the point being was that the moving of the threads for info gathering to a sub forum killed it, because now no one even answers my threads for asking for info since they can't see it. I am asking to close it so whatever is there would stay, because they are not my info. it's just he idea of killing a good thing is a turn off.
members come and ask the same info every day and someone answers it, I got something [positive going, but the it got killed. I don't even get answers even when I PM people so, if they have me on their ignore list then why even make an AZZ out of myself.
You see threads for unrelated subjects that almost everyone jumps on it for a reply, and I don't want to become annoyance,by PMing members to put info in the chart. the respond was good when we started it because they could see the thread. I think if we close it then the forum won't be there and no one has to worry about the list and if they want to add to it they will figure out a way. Since we couldn't figure out a way to create a temple for it.

 

[kinggabby]

Have you thought people might have other lives than to answer every PM and email sent ? Yes the idea of a chart is a good idea. But come on you are trying to force it down peoples throats and trying to make them feel bad. Lighten up.

 

[phillywood]

In the months past I put thread in penturing and you removed them and put them in the subforum since I was asking for participation. I meant no disrespect or you taking it that way. I am trying to get to the real answer and ask Jeff to close the subforum for good. and leave the info in the library, since the idea is killed.

 

[kinggabby]

I don't know if you know but every time you post on that forum it shows up when someone clicks new post. So it is being seen. Some times people can't remember a specific wood or non- wood they have worked with. Some people have made hundreds of pens ( I know if I have made that many I could not remember them all )

 

[terryf]

The idea is sound.... The information you have gathered is good.... Why destroy something that is already there?

Who knows what the next step for it may be - I know that you feel it has died, but I also know that there were others that thought it was taking up too much on the new items. I really believe that there is good places for this kind of information, I'm just not sure we've found the right balance yet.

As for removing this thread - I don't see anything wrong with it (but then I'm new at this part of things)... But you telling Curtis that he can't will have no bearing on that - I fully don't believe he removes things without the proper reasons (or I wouldn't have agreed to join the moderators). However, if he has a valid reason, it will go - no matter what you believe.

As for the outcome of the thread.... You can ask.. Even if 100% of the votes say so... all you can do is ask.

What he said!

 

[alphageek]

In the months past I put thread in penturing and you removed them and put them in the subforum since I was asking for participation. I meant no disrespect or you taking it that way. I am trying to get to the real answer and ask Jeff to close the subforum for good. and leave the info in the library, since the idea is killed.

I suggest that you check your facts carefully... You specifically called out Curtis on this one and I looked at the suggestion box threads that started the move... I don't see him in there anywhere.

As for the 'real answer'..... I'm not sure what you mean by that but I don't see any benefit in closing the sub forum. Several other sub forums here are slow moving, but that doesn't mean they should be closed.

 

[ldb2000]

Phillip , this is not the way to go about it . What you were trying to do is a good thing , the chart will grow and become a great reference but it is going to take time . Look at the page views , people are looking and contributing but it will take time to grow . People will add to it but this is not something that can be built quickly . I know you want it to become an instant success but that's not going to happen . You can't force people to join in and brow beating them will just turn them off (Boy , I learned that lesson the hard way) Just leave it the way it is , put up suggestions for new woods and materials and slowly people will add their input , they just have to get used to the idea at their own pace .

 

[gketell]

I personally didn't like the requests posted in the main penturning forum because those requests were beginning to out number the "real" posts of the forum AND there was no way to tell a wood chart request from a end-user post request info or talking about the wood.

That said, I think having it as a separate forum is less useful. As Philly says, no one visits it. But, we are trying to build the IAP wiki and that is what this is, a list of information that we want different people to provide the info for. That is exactly what "wiki"s are about, populace edited information. Why not start a section in the IAP wiki for wood info and post all this stuff there. Then when anyone has info they can edit it as they like. No load on the IAP staff, no load on Philly, and all the info stays available and easily found (provided the search engine searches the wiki too).

My two (or twenty) cents.

 

[alphageek]

It's also in the wiki ... Just need to start putting info into it... http://www.penturners.org/wiki/Raw_Materials

The wiki is still a great idea ... Just need to get enough info to be used more in there...

 

[MesquiteMan]

Believe me, the Wiki is the place that it is and was preferred to be put. Jeff wanted it put there but got push back and did not insist. Instead, he tried to please everyone like he frequently does.

 

[rjwolfe3]

The problem with Wiki is that no one wants to help put it on Wiki. I am still waiting on someone to write a quick tutorial on how to put stuff on Wiki. I had hoped that when it was first suggested that this project be put on Wiki that Randy would jump in and volunteer to show Phil how to do it. Maybe he has, I don't know. I just know in my trying to navigate Wiki that it is apparently not that simple to put info on there or there would be a much greater abundance of info there!

 

[maxwell_smart007]

I agree. The Wiki would have been a perfect place for the information, because it's a continual, never-ending project that needs constant editing.

For that reason, the chart was moved to its own area, so that it would not take over the forum proper. It's still accessible to anyone that wishes to go and add to it - just because it's not on the front page with banners flashing and sirens wailing doesn't mean that it can't be found if someone wants to participate.

I think that this is the perfect project to jumpstart the Wiki project; but you're right, Rob - no one knows how to use the Wiki, and it's daunting because it's rather empty - no one wants to be first, it seems. Maybe a tutorial would be a nice thing to have!

 

[GaryMGg]

Does "Close it" mean "move it back to main area"?
or
Does "Close it" mean "make it read only where it is"?

I think Greg's post (#11) hits the mark.

Phillip, perhaps instead of pushing the IAP Wood Chart down everyone's throat (my perspective of what's been happening), you might consider walking away from it for a while and instead concentrate on teaching yourself how Wiki's work and writing a template and tutorial from what you learn.
My $.035, adjusted for inflation.
Cheers,
Gary

 

[witz1976]

I too think it was being pushed too far. It seemed that every time someone posted something new and unique there was a post asking to fill out the form to add it.
I personally would rather try it myself, screw up and learn how to turn. Sure some tutorials are good, but we do not need it for everything.

Also, and this is just me, but that took some big brass ones to tell a moderator he cannot do his job. This is why I am getting a little tired of this group. People not respecting other people.

 

[kinggabby]

I think that if you might want to move it along faster that maybe you could find that material. In doing so not only do you learn the material but you also improve on your own turnings.

 

[alphageek]

I think a GREAT compromise and maybe the best overall answer (My opinion only) - would be to start moving the information to the Wiki... As each material is moved into the wiki, a final post pointing to it in the materials thread, then the thread is locked. Once all materials are moved into the wiki - then we could close the forum.

So... The wiki quick start is here: http://www.penturners.org/wiki/Quick_Start

If there is questions on how to use the wiki... post them here: http://www.penturners.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=118

Then maybe we can get the wiki off the ground... Think about it ... the wiki could be come a HUGE searchable place if each active member put in just one little edit a week. And I don't mean just materials... Pen kits, dimensions, how-tos....

 

[jimm1]

here we go again

 

[ed4copies]

Phillip , this is not the way to go about it . What you were trying to do is a good thing , the chart will grow and become a great reference but it is going to take time . Look at the page views , people are looking and contributing but it will take time to grow . People will add to it but this is not something that can be built quickly . I know you want it to become an instant success but that's not going to happen . You can't force people to join in and brow beating them will just turn them off (Boy , I learned that lesson the hard way) Just leave it the way it is , put up suggestions for new woods and materials and slowly people will add their input , they just have to get used to the idea at their own pace .

I agree with this new, extremely thoughtful Butch!! GREAT entry, my friend!!!

 

[hunter-27]

Close IAP wood chart and remove the forum.
Folks I need your vote to ask Jeff to close the wood chart and remove the forum, since giving it a seperate forum caused no visit or contribution to the chart. It became another additional forum that would take space on your screen. I would apprecaite your feed back.

And, curtis, no you can not remove this thread since we need to know the answer.

It's apparent that no traffic and no input was made to the chart after it was moved to the subforum so we need to find out once and for all. the idea of giving it a house in the back stage killed it. Out of site, out of mind.

Phillip,

I think you skewed your own poll by stating things the way you did. It was and IS STILL a good idea. Everyone is aware I have rushed into judgement of criticisims against me in the past. Don't get so defensive, let the idea grow and develop. Work with those who are trying to help. It is an enormous undertaking and I respect you for tackling it. That being said I hope you can realize that it is not going to happen at warp speed no matter how hard you push it. Sometimes my friend you need to SLOW DOWN to GO FASTER. You say there was no traffic to the subforum but the view count tells a different story as I see it. Not everyone will use the info, fewer still will help with it. That being said, I think more are and will use it than you may think. Keep on it but be willing to pace yourself and accept the help afforded to you. I don't understand the Wiki, so I can't help you there but in theory it sounds promising. Take care my friend, dont hesitate to give me a shout if you need something. If I can help, I will.

Landon

 

[GaryMGg]

...the view count tells a different story as I see it. ...

Great input Landon. Something not a lot of folks seem to realize:
the Viewing of each post (thread) FAR, FAR, FAR outweighs the responses in nearly all cases.
In business, there's an 80/20 rule: 80% of your business comes from 20% of your customers.
With this forum, I'm guessing it's more of a 90/10 split; maybe greater.

And that's fine. Folks should feel welcome to visit as pleases their nature.
Post, don't post. Just be easy and easy to get along with. :wink:

 

[Skye]

The idea is sound.... The information you have gathered is good.... Why destroy something that is already there?

That.

 

[Sylvanite]

It's also in the wiki ... Just need to start putting info into it...

Is there a wiki template for entries yet?

 

[rjwolfe3]

Not to my knowledge, I think Phil is still hoping someone will help show him how. Or at least show me how and I will put the chart in!

It's also in the wiki ... Just need to start putting info into it...

Is there a wiki template for entries yet?

 

[Snorton20]

Phillip, what you are doing is building a reference to hundreds of woods and such. Collecting all these references takes time. All I can say is thank you and other IAP members that contributed to this reference chart. Don't give up, it's not like this is the only thing on your mind, so don't sweat it. Rome was not built in a day.

 

[alphageek]

I did create a template, and tied one product to it.... That being said - I think the template was more work than it would be without... So I'm still trying to come up with what to do about that.

 

[capcrnch]

Not to my knowledge, I think Phil is still hoping someone will help show him how. Or at least show me how and I will put the chart in!

It's also in the wiki ... Just need to start putting info into it...

Is there a wiki template for entries yet?

I'm working on playing with it to make it wiki friendly.

I'm also leading a viva LeWiki charge right now and talking with Randy..
I've got some ideas cooking in my head where I think the wiki can be streamlined, organized and easy to use for everyone.

 

[phillywood]

Have you thought people might have other lives than to answer every PM and email sent ? Yes the idea of a chart is a good idea. But come on you are trying to force it down peoples throats and trying to make them feel bad. Lighten up.

Dave have you ever contributed? I don't remember sending you any PMs asking you to contribute. You sounded off before, so I left you alone. the participation is voluntary, so if you never contributed then why are you complaining?

 

[phillywood]

In the months past I put thread in penturing and you removed them and put them in the subforum since I was asking for participation. I meant no disrespect or you taking it that way. I am trying to get to the real answer and ask Jeff to close the subforum for good. and leave the info in the library, since the idea is killed.

I suggest that you check your facts carefully... You specifically called out Curtis on this one and I looked at the suggestion box threads that started the move... I don't see him in there anywhere.

As for the 'real answer'..... I'm not sure what you mean by that but I don't see any benefit in closing the sub forum. Several other sub forums here are slow moving, but that doesn't mean they should be closed.

Dan, you got the isuue mixed up.

 

[phillywood]

I personally didn't like the requests posted in the main penturning forum because those requests were beginning to out number the "real" posts of the forum AND there was no way to tell a wood chart request from a end-user post request info or talking about the wood.

That said, I think having it as a separate forum is less useful. As Philly says, no one visits it. But, we are trying to build the IAP wiki and that is what this is, a list of information that we want different people to provide the info for. That is exactly what "wiki"s are about, populace edited information. Why not start a section in the IAP wiki for wood info and post all this stuff there. Then when anyone has info they can edit it as they like. No load on the IAP staff, no load on Philly, and all the info stays available and easily found (provided the search engine searches the wiki too).

My two (or twenty) cents.

Greg, I appreciate your input. the idea of Wiki is fine. I don't have any problems with that. I like you to do a Poll on the use of Wiki, and ask that how many can actually find information on it when you go and click Wiki button? It took me a long time just to find out that Butch entered a chart post under one of the woods.
Here how I got there, clicked the Wiki button so it went to Welcome to IAP-Wiki, then I had to click on every one of those options on the left to figure out that I finally needed to click on Special pages (how many of you know that in order to get to the wood names this is the option you have to click on?), then you have to go under the List of pages and click on all pages then you see this list:


acrylester Acrylic Acetate Advance penturning

then you have to go down the list to find the wood species and click on that. Next you get this pane that gives you info Category: Wood species, now you have to click on this again
now you get a list which is vague and under the W category you see wood species again.

The point is that people complain that this (wood chart) is being shoved down their throat VS. just going to Wiki. They have to go through all these steps that I mentioned and I like to time the darn thing and see how long actually it takes for someone to find out the info.
The wiki is fine, but it needs a lots of fine tuning to do and look decent enough for someone actually navigate in it. what I started her is simple because everyone knows about MS Word.If you download it in MS and follow all the links it jumps like if you do a search in a book.
Now I rest my case. Since people here bicker about it, I want to to ask Jeff to close it so I don't have to ask members to send me the info. and I have to then input them and correct them individually. Also, the file has gotten to 23+ MB and I am not in a position to buy zip program to zip the file to send to Jeff so he in turn upload it on to the IAP. Still, you need someone to manage the data so it would be consistent. Well, I have to put up with members bickering in the background and I can't even ask my own qsn. in penturning forum if it involves some wood for my own info. because in the past when I did it Curtis thought that it was related to wood chart, so it got deleted.
This is why I am asking to close it. that way I go back having my privileges restored without being deleted. I ask my qsn.s in a thread and I am sure few people will answer them and life goes on.
Now , I am becoming the bad guy, because I brought on a new idea. So, whoever is interested then they can figure out a way with the help of new computer experts her on IAp how to input and if they want to input it in the chart.

Thank, to those who responded to this thread. I rest my case. Your answer is the result of the poll.
Best regards,

 

[phillywood]

It's also in the wiki ... Just need to start putting info into it... http://www.penturners.org/wiki/Raw_Materials

The wiki is still a great idea ... Just need to get enough info to be used more in there...

Dean, You put this link on the post , I wonder did you click on it to see wher it takes you some of those names don't even have links. and the info.s are the same things that you can find in better details from other sources.

 

[phillywood]

The problem with Wiki is that no one wants to help put it on Wiki. I am still waiting on someone to write a quick tutorial on how to put stuff on Wiki. I had hoped that when it was first suggested that this project be put on Wiki that Randy would jump in and volunteer to show Phil how to do it. Maybe he has, I don't know. I just know in my trying to navigate Wiki that it is apparently not that simple to put info on there or there would be a much greater abundance of info there!

Rob, I thought same thing too, i waited long enough, but no answer as to how to upload the darn thing to Wiki. When you find out we all gonna be happy.

 

[phillywood]

Does "Close it" mean "move it back to main area"?
or
Does "Close it" mean "make it read only where it is"?

I think Greg's post (#11) hits the mark.

Phillip, perhaps instead of pushing the IAP Wood Chart down every one's throat (my perspective of what's been happening), you might consider walking away from it for a while and instead concentrate on teaching yourself how Wiki's work and writing a template and tutorial from what you learn.
My $.035, adjusted for inflation.
Cheers,
Gary

Gary, I respected your help from the very beginning when you offered it with blanks and other advises. What I am asking is that close the forum and get rid of it then no one can access the forum then the info which is already gathered will be posted as is in the library as read only and that will put an end to all these feeling of (shoving it down members' throat) you guys make it sound like that I am putting a gun to people's head and telling them to put info. in it, which I am not.
I am washing my hands off this because now it's my time to make pens and things. But the point I am making is that if this is open and I buy let's say certain wood and I am having problem with then I can not ask for help in Pen Turning forum just like the rest of you do and get personal help, because the moderators (now three) will push it to the sub forum and I never get my answer. plus, the way the chart is now I have to constantly convert it to the chart format and then add it to the chart which is taking my time, yet alone PMing people to ask them to add.
Which is making me lose my credibility.

 

[phillywood]

I too think it was being pushed too far. It seemed that every time someone posted something new and unique there was a post asking to fill out the form to add it.
I personally would rather try it myself, screw up and learn how to turn. Sure some tutorials are good, but we do not need it for everything.

Also, and this is just me, but that took some big brass ones to tell a moderator he cannot do his job. This is why I am getting a little tired of this group. People not respecting other people.

Dan if you like to practice what you wrote above, then it makes me wonder why are you on the IAP exactly, you seem to do everything on your own? then You don't need IAP's help.
I don't think that anyone on IAP is twisting your arm to like this Group if you think that we don't respect each other. you seem to have lots of growing up to do, buddy.

 

[phillywood]

Close IAP wood chart and remove the forum.
Folks I need your vote to ask Jeff to close the wood chart and remove the forum, since giving it a separate forum caused no visit or contribution to the chart. It became another additional forum that would take space on your screen. I would appreciate your feed back.

And, Curtis, no you can not remove this thread since we need to know the answer.

It's apparent that no traffic and no input was made to the chart after it was moved to the sub forum so we need to find out once and for all. the idea of giving it a house in the back stage killed it. Out of site, out of mind.

Phillip,

I think you skewed your own poll by stating things the way you did. It was and IS STILL a good idea. Everyone is aware I have rushed into judgement of criticisms against me in the past. Don't get so defensive, let the idea grow and develop. Work with those who are trying to help. It is an enormous undertaking and I respect you for tackling it. That being said I hope you can realize that it is not going to happen at warp speed no matter how hard you push it. Sometimes my friend you need to SLOW DOWN to GO FASTER. You say there was no traffic to the sub forum but the view count tells a different story as I see it. Not everyone will use the info, fewer still will help with it. That being said, I think more are and will use it than you may think. Keep on it but be willing to pace yourself and accept the help afforded to you. I don't understand the Wiki, so I can't help you there but in theory it sounds promising. Take care my friend, don't hesitate to give me a shout if you need something. If I can help, I will.

Landon

Landon, I appreciate your kind words. I am by no means in a hurry and I realize what I undertook. I didn't mind it when I first started it, but now I realize that i created more enemies than friends. Then, I thought about it that there only few members who help, including you, Ed, ken, rob, and few others. Then we have all those clicks and when I had the chart on an independent site we got so many people asking me to send them the copy of it, now it seems that no one wants to even bother with it to continue and I am becoming the evil child asking them to input their already info that they are putting it in the show your pens forum in the chart.

I thought we as whole are here on IAP to help each other, now it became just the handful helping all the others. We have silly threads going on all the time and members make all kind of posts, form funny to not so funny and just two or three min. of the info input which they already have posted will not hurt. anyways i did my part and now someone else can steer the ship to the shore, I guess.
Best regards,

 

[phillywood]

here we go again

Jim, with all due respect do you see me saying anything when you post other stuff on other threads? when you wanted to sell me your JD banks I didn't complain about your PMs at all and i haven't seen you even putting a post about those blanks in the chart then you make this kind of comment here?

 

[phillywood]

It's also in the wiki ... Just need to start putting info into it...

Is there a wiki template for entries yet?

Eric, the answer is no. there hasn't been any.

 

[phillywood]

Not to my knowledge, I think Phil is still hoping someone will help show him how. Or at least show me how and I will put the chart in!

It's also in the wiki ... Just need to start putting info into it...

Is there a wiki template for entries yet?

Rob, I appreciate your frankness trying to help. i think you have done enough already by putting most of the info. in and you also got your own projects going. I think it is only fair for others to help now.