What is your favorite stabilization medium?

[RaisinCain]

Hi guys,

I have been going over the archives here and really enjoy your input.

One thing that I have noticed is the variety of stabilizing mediums used; everything from ready-to-go Minwax Hardener to glue+water to acetone+fiberglass. It has really been a great read.

A couple of things that are sometimes missing from these post is (a) the exact recipe and methods you use (including immersion and drying times) and (b) where you get the materials you use.

Could some of you more experienced guys help out a newbie here? Any information you can give is appreciated, and the more detailed the better. I am just getting ready to stabilize my first batch in the next couple of weeks and look forward to your input. I would like to keep the cost down, and at ~$9.00 a pint the Minwax Hardener is seems a bit pricey. Again, any information is appreciated! Thanks!

 

[Dario]

I use plexiglass-acetone.

Wasn't impressed with the vacuum method (and it can smell nasty FAST). I will try pressure soon.

My solution was thinner than what I'll try this time. I just soak a few pieces of plexiglass on acetone and shake it a couple times a day. Solution should be thick enough after a week. I tend to put more plexiglass in the jar than needed...then pour out the solution to another container. Later, I'll add more acetone (and maybe more plexiglass) to the original glass jug/jar for the next batch.

 

[penbros]

Originally posted by RaisinCain
<br />

A couple of things that are sometimes missing from these post is (a) the exact recipe and methods you use (including immersion and drying times) and (b) where you get the materials you use.

What about measurments

 

[RaisinCain]

[quoteWasn't impressed with the vacuum method (and it can smell nasty FAST). I will try pressure soon.
[/quote]

Thanks for the input, Dario. I am surprised that you did not care for the vacuum method; I seem to remember that you were one of the people that built a great looking setup with vacuum pump that you had purchased at a flea market. Maybe I am remembering incorrectly. If it was you that built it and if you don't mind me asking, why did this not work out for you?

Thanks,
Brad in Dallas

 

[Dario]

Sorry guys, can't help much because I myself am still experimenting (when feel like and find time).

With the vacuum, I let the blanks soak for 2 days and as I said, helped some but not that impressive. Penetration is all the way though and helped my soft blanks to the point that there is no tearout while drilling.

Drying, is just a few days. I think after a week I cannot smell even a trace of acetone in the shavings while drilling.

That is the only stabilization experience I have/can share.

 

[Dario]

Brad it works great...but the fume that it creates is too much. While doing a vacuum, the acetone boils and turns into gas....as I pull out the air...it is getting replaced by gaseous acetone [B)]...so I never really got/attain good vacuum even though my vacuum can pull really good.

Maybe it will work better with a different solution. []

 

[smoky10]

Originally posted by Dario
<br />Brad it works great...but the fume that it creates is too much. While doing a vacuum, the acetone boils and turns into gas....as I pull out the air...it is getting replaced by gaseous acetone [B)]...so I never really got/attain good vacuum even though my vacuum can pull really good.

Maybe it will work better with a different solution. []

I have the same problem as Dario. I use a manifold on mine and I would almost shut it off to keep it from boiling the acetone out.I believe the vaccuum pump from a "seal-a-meal" would work because it would draw it down much slower, I've been looking for one at yard sales and flea markets but no luck. Someone here may have tried it already.

 

[ctEaglesc]

I started stabilizing 2 years ago with acetone and plexiglass.
I wasn't the first but at least among the first. My initial use was to cut down on the amount of CA that I as a new pen turner(About two months) used on my corn cob pens.
Here is a link with the first results of my stabilizing using "bondo wood hardener"
www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=875&SearchTerms=corn,cob,stabilizing

There are A couple of things I have noticed and can make recommendations on based on my experiences.

I suggest you start with a commercial product so you get an idea of viscosity.
I found the Bondo worked well and changed to acetone plexiglass only because of the cost.Acetone and scrap plexi is cheap compared to the commercial product but the fact I had a starting point to work from saved me a lot of time.
Secondly is we are not using the same method of a commercial stabilizing set up.They use pressure and heat.I imagine pressure that is far more than what is safe in a paint pot or pressure cooker. I have posted this analogy before so if you have read this bear with me.
To make it simple lets assume you are using a 50% acetone plexiglass mix. Half liquid half solid.
If you saturate the piece with the solution it will be "completely filled"
BUT the acetone will flash off eventually once it is removed from the solution.This happens almost immediately on the surface but will take time for the liquid to "harden" inside the blank.Even then, the plexiglass ideally needs to cure 24 hours to harden and will continue to harden with time.
The pores that were filled with the liquid under ideal conditions are still only filled 50% because we started out with a 50% solution.
Stabilizing is great, it saves money but will not replace commercial set ups with the equipment we have available.
You still need sharp tools and the surface will not be the same as a commercially stabilized blank.
One more thought.
Woods with oils such as walnut ebony, and others will be bleached out with the acetone if you do not keep your solutions separate.
these are things to consider.

Other observations.
All this talk about the acetone is boiling made me look at what was happening.
If the bubbles are coming from the blank to the point where the secodary vessel is over flowing cut down on the vacuum.
After the piece has given up as much "air" from it that you can you will find reated cycles of pulling a vacuum will allow you to get readings of 25 or 26 inches hg.
that's pretty good for a home made system but you probably won't get them immediately.
Some of these bubbles or foaming is from the solution itself.Remember you mixed air with it when you transferred the solution from one vessel to the other.
A drop in the vacuum gauge doesn't necessarily mean you have a leak.
You are pulling a vaccum but as long as there is negative pressure there is air being released from the blank.The needle on the gauge is is showing the vacuum equalizing as the air is released from the blank.
I have been doing this long enough to know that what I am doing the way I am doing it is working.
Good luck with whatever method you choose[]
I too picked up a pressure cooker(not the cheapo kind but one that is similar to a paint pot and intend to start "playing around with stabilizing" under pressure.
The cost of my 15&1/2 quart aluminum pressure cooker?
$5.00.(insert gloat smiley here)

 

[Dario]

Eagles,

I assure you, the vacuum doesn't last no matter how slow or fast I vacuum. It is almost like having a leak since the acetone evaporates and fill the vacuum fast!

I am also sure that the bubbling is not due to air from the blanks. I had mine bubble for almost an hour and it never ceased...the "air/bubbles" I pulled from the blanks is probably enough to fill a a few twin inflatable mattress already []...no way that the blanks held that much air. I posted a pic before and that one pic shows how wild the bubbling I am getting...it is similar to a boiling water with HUGE bubbles (1/4"-1/2" dia) not the tiny ones you would normally expect.

Be careful with that pressure cooker and check the maximum pressure it can handle.

 

[alamocdc]

I always use vacuum and primarily acetone/plexi, but I'm still experimenting. Set things up with Eagle's help last year. At first I had a leak and couldn't maintain a vacuum. Now it's not a problem (again, thanks to Eagle).

 

[ctEaglesc]

Originally posted by Dario
<br />Eagles,

I assure you, the vacuum doesn't last no matter how slow or fast I vacuum. It is almost like having a leak since the acetone evaporates and fill the vacuum fast!I am also sure that the bubbling is not due to air from the blanks. I had mine bubble for almost an hour and it never ceased...the "air/bubbles" I pulled from the blanks is probably enough to fill a a few twin inflatable mattress already []...no way that the blanks held that much air. I posted a pic before and that one pic shows how wild the bubbling I am getting...it is similar to a boiling water with HUGE bubbles (1/4"-1/2" dia) not the tiny ones you would normally expect.

Be careful with that pressure cooker and check the maximum pressure it can handle.

Dario-
Do you have a valve that allows you to shut off the vacuum chamber once you have pulled a vacuum?

 

[mrplace]

I am kinda new to to vacuum/acetone method. But, I have yet had my vacuum fall under 20hg after I got the majority of air out of the blanks.

I had trouble with my first set-up leaking, so I took everything off and plumbed a nipple with a tee, gauge and then a hose barb. Havent lost vaccum yet. I have had on HOT days the vacuum drop, but when it cooled off, the vacuum went back up.

 

[Dario]

Eagles,

Yes I do. I also tested the setup without acetone and the vacuum held.

 

[loglugger]

Dario, for a experiment pull a vacuum without the blanks in the jar, just the Plexiglas and acetone.
RaisinCain, I use poly 60%and acetone 40% ( it’s what I have handy )and pull a slow vacuum, stop momentarily if it bubbles to much, once you get a full vacuum let it bleed off slow and redo a few times, When all the air is out of the blanks it will quit bubbling. I use a valve to shut off the vacuum hose and hold it over night. On soft wood or corn cods this can take awhile, some times 2 or more days if you don’t keep right on it. I cut and drill the blanks before they go into the ply. The poly will take about a week or more to dry depending on the weather. Listen to Eagle.
Bob

 

[RaisinCain]

First of all, thanks for the great discussion. Its' been great to follow.

Just out of curiosity, where to you guys get the fiberglass? I've never worked with fiberglass before, so is there more than one kind or anything I should steer clear of?

Can you put dye in with the acetone\fiberglass blend and do the dyeing and stabilization at the same time?

Thanks!

 

[alamocdc]

Plexiglass, NOT fiberglass! And I get it in scraps from glass shops for free.

 

[RaisinCain]

Thanks Billy; I meant Plexiglass but that was a great catch; will save someone a lot of itching![]

 

[Dario]

Eagles,

Here is my post with a pic of the setup http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14577&SearchTerms=vacuum

Note that though I didn't install the gauge, I can hear the "fizzle" when I release the vacuum via the valve.

As I said, when tested without the solution...I get the "fizzle" even after overnight. With the acetone, it almost is none existent after a while.

What's odd is after the long vacuum run the exterior of the jar is actually freezing cold [:0]...and my garage is HOT!

This post by mwechtal and pssherman probably explains it much better...

Originally posted by mwechtal
<br />

Originally posted by pssherman
<br />Dario,
How much vacuum are you pulling? The vacuum pump that you are using looks like it could pull a deep vacuum. If it is pulling a deep vacuum then you are very likey evaporating the water still in the blank. The resulting water vapor will form bubbles just like air does. If the bubbles stop shortly after closing the valve and then restart when the valve is opened and the vacuum pump is on, then the bubbles are from water vapor not air.

Paul in AR

Paul,
You may be onto something there. That does look like a pretty stout vacuum pump. However I don't think that's water boiling. Water boils at 100 deg. C (212 deg. F), and acetone boils at 56 deg. C (133 deg. F). Now, I'm almost positive that the dissolved acrylic (plexiglass) will modify the boiling point, but it should still be lower than water. So, I think what we have here is acetone boiling. The bubbles will always form easier on a rough surface like wood, so it would look like something boiling out of the wood. Somebody with some chemistry experience less than 2 decades old please check me on this.[]

By the way, I hope everyone knows that acetone fumes are explosive. If that jar gets overstressed and breaks, it looks like a lot of vapor will be released. I would only do this in an explosion proof fume hood, or outdoors. I'm learning a lot here, and I'd hate to hear about losing someone in a huge fireball.[][xx(]

Mike

<br />

 

[wood-of-1kind]

Originally posted by RaisinCain
<br />
Can you put dye in with the acetone\fiberglass blend and do the dyeing and stabilization at the same time?

Thanks!

Yes.I primarily stabilize and add a dye mixture to my acetone bath. I do NOT add plexi. My interest lies with adding 'colour' to my blanks rather than hardening the wood. Have had mixed success with the penetration of colour. Some woods soak up the colour better than others (sycamore & maple work well for me). I'm currently doing some fig blanks and I may post the results if they colour successfully.

-Peter-

 

[Rifleman1776]

My favorite technique for stabilization is to mail to a friend who does it for me at a very small fee. Then he mails back to me when done. Very easy and effective. [][8D]

 

[Rifleman1776]

BTW, those glass jar set-ups scare the *bleep* out of me. I know it is done a lot by those here and elsewhere. But the idea of a glass jar under vacuum or pressure, full of chemicals imploding or exploding is discomfiting.

 

[ctEaglesc]

Originally posted by Rifleman1776
<br />BTW, those glass jar set-ups scare the *bleep* out of me. I know it is done a lot by those here and elsewhere. But the idea of a glass jar under vacuum or pressure, full of chemicals imploding or exploding is discomfiting.

Interesting comment from a guy who stuffs gunpowder in a metal tube and then sets a spark to it on purpose with his eyes directly behind the point of explosion.
I am not concerned about a jar imploding as long as I am not in the jar.( as many will attest that won't happen)
Think of how John Glenn and the rest of the Mercury Astronauts must have felt.

 

[wood-of-1kind]

Originally posted by cteaglesc
<br />[I am not concerned about a jar imploding as long as I am not in the jar.( as many will attest that won't happen)

I'll drink to your good health, Eagle[]

-Peter-

 

[punkinn]

I use a vacuum set up (my BF's pump from his veneer jig) and the Minwax Wood Hardener. It works wonderfully. I keep the vacuum on for about an hour after it stops bubbling completely (and it bubbles for quite a long time with some woods). All in all, blanks stay in the solution/vacuum for about 3 hours or so. Then they come out, hang to dry, and I turn them the next day. Easy-peasy. I reuse the Minwax (just keep pouring it back into the bottle when I'm done) and it goes quite a long way.

Nancy

 

[Rifleman1776]

Originally posted by cteaglesc
<br />

Originally posted by Rifleman1776
<br />BTW, those glass jar set-ups scare the *bleep* out of me. I know it is done a lot by those here and elsewhere. But the idea of a glass jar under vacuum or pressure, full of chemicals imploding or exploding is discomfiting.

Interesting comment from a guy who stuffs gunpowder in a metal tube and then sets a spark to it on purpose with his eyes directly behind the point of explosion.
I am not concerned about a jar imploding as long as I am not in the jar.( as many will attest that won't happen)
Think of how John Glenn and the rest of the Mercury Astronauts must have felt.

[][][]

 

[Kaspar]

Has anyone attempted stabilization with hide glue? I will be venturing in that direction soon.

 

[whatwoodido]

I have been playing with dyes to see how well vacuum works and what I have found is that the wood fibers act like a filter, they actually filter out most of the dye. I do get some dye throughout the blank so I am getting liquid saturation, but he amount of dye making it into the wood is very limited. I expect that the stabilization should have the same problem, particularly with thicker stabilizing materials.

I tried stailization with sanding sealer, figured it would still take dyes, stains, and finishes quite well. I found the same thing, good liquid pentration, but not particularly good saturation of the hardening properties.

Drew

 

[bonefish]

The only hide glue I have ever used dissolved when it got wet.

Bonefish

 

[ctEaglesc]

Actually after re-reading the subject question I realized the simple answer for me is CA glue.[]

 

[terrymiller]

Just curious has anyone tried the Clear Penetrating Epoxy yet I have not had the time or money yet so I am just curious.

 

[bonefish]

A few days ago, someone wrote about using epoxy resin and a pressure pot to stabilize wood.

If I remember, this person said that the results were better than anything he had used up until that time.

I don't remember the post, but it is probably in the archives.

I didn't look it up because I'm feeling lazy this morning.

Bonefish

 

[Gadget]

Hey guyd i have been fooling around with aceatone/plexi in a pressure pot and have ended up with a big mess and blanks that have verry little penetration. I stumbled across this article http://www.northcoastknives.com/northcoast_knives_tutorials_hints_tips3.htm and i will modify it a little i think heat is one of the keys. Im gonna try heating the blanks with the wood hardener to about 200 degrees for a couple of hours. A hot plate should be good (no open flames im looking to have fun with my hobby not to get blown up) Then im going to place the solution into the pressure pot and draw a vaccum and then switch to pressure. I think that experimenting with times under pressure and vac is the only way to get it right. My only concern is how the wood hardener reacts with the wood and finishes. It might be a while but i will let you know how it works.

 

[ctEaglesc]

I like the part where you mention no open flame.
Have you ever heard of spontaneous combustion?
A burner on a hot plate does not know any given temp.
It heats up at it's max temperature until either you turn it off or it shuts itslf down.
There is still a chance of sparking.
I wish you well but there are somethings even I won't try.
HAve you considered sharpening your tools?)[]

This concept was mentioned a long time ago on this forum when the subject of stabilizing was in its' infancy.
IIRC correctly the original potser gave up on the idea, I hope you have better results.
BTW have you ever heard the joke about the dead red neck who's last words to his buddy were:
Hey! watch this!
[xx(]

As far as the link to the knife maker.
knife scales are much thinner.

 

[Dario]

Originally posted by Gadget
<br />Hey guyd i have been fooling around with aceatone/plexi in a pressure pot and have ended up with a big mess and blanks that have verry little penetration. I stumbled across this article http://www.northcoastknives.com/northcoast_knives_tutorials_hints_tips3.htm and i will modify it a little i think heat is one of the keys. Im gonna try heating the blanks with the wood hardener to about 200 degrees for a couple of hours. A hot plate should be good (no open flames im looking to have fun with my hobby not to get blown up) Then im going to place the solution into the pressure pot and draw a vaccum and then switch to pressure. I think that experimenting with times under pressure and vac is the only way to get it right. My only concern is how the wood hardener reacts with the wood and finishes. It might be a while but i will let you know how it works.

I won't do it with heat. Much as I hate sending blanks to be commercially stabilized....I will do it that way first before doing it the way you described.

I put more value to my families well being (me included) and my house.

 

[wdcav1952]

Gadget,

Quite simply, don't use heat. I used that method two years ago. Fortunately, the only thing that was ruined was my glasses. No, I didn't use open flame; I used hot water. When the bottom of the Minwax gets hot enough, it erupts through the cooler upper layer and splashes anything it the way.

For what it is worth,

 

[cozee]

BTW have you ever heard the joke about the dead red neck who's last words to his buddy were:
Hey! watch this!

I thought it was, "Here, hold my beer!"

 

[cozee]

Has anyone tried predrilling blanks with a smaller than needed (3/16 or so) pilot hole to aid in the saturation of the stablizing mixture? This would also allow for quicker exiting of trapped air.

 

[alamocdc]

Originally posted by Gadget
<br />Hey guyd i have been fooling around with aceatone/plexi in a pressure pot and have ended up with a big mess and blanks that have verry little penetration. I stumbled across this article http://www.northcoastknives.com/northcoast_knives_tutorials_hints_tips3.htm and i will modify it a little i think heat is one of the keys. Im gonna try heating the blanks with the wood hardener to about 200 degrees for a couple of hours. A hot plate should be good (no open flames im looking to have fun with my hobby not to get blown up) Then im going to place the solution into the pressure pot and draw a vaccum and then switch to pressure. I think that experimenting with times under pressure and vac is the only way to get it right. My only concern is how the wood hardener reacts with the wood and finishes. It might be a while but i will let you know how it works.

Gadget, my grandmother used this method, so it's not at all new. No, she didn't stabilize blanks, but she did can fruits and vegetables (as does LOML) using a hot water bath. The only difference between what this guy does and those of us using vacuum systems is the added heat. You'll note that he said at the end that the jar will seal with a vacuum. Yes, it may open the pores of the wood some. But I'm not sure I want to heat the chemicals we use to nearly 200 degrees. Just my thoughts.

 

[DCBluesman]

If folks insist on heating the chemicals we use, at least check out the flashpoint of the chemicals. Here's one source. http://tinyurl.com/lg5av Note that the temperature is the number of degrees below 32*C. For example, acetone at the equivalent of 64 degrees F a spark can ignite acetone vapors! As you increase the temperature of the acetone, you increase the release of vapors, thereby increasing the risk of explosion. Be careful out there!

 

[Kaspar]

Originally posted by bonefish
<br />The only hide glue I have ever used dissolved when it got wet.

Bonefish

Can hide glue be made waterproof? Yes, by adding 1/2-1% aluminum sulfate. Exposure to formaldehyde fumes will render dry hide glue insoluble.

<b>Can hide glue be made flexible?</b> Yes, by adding 5% (based on the weight of glue) glycerin. Increase the amount by increments of 2-3% of the glycerin to achieve greater flexibility. This works well when gluing canvas to the back of a tambour door.