Powder Metal Pen Blanks?

[jskeen]

anybody familiar with/used these and care to comment on the care and feeding thereof?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Metal-Pen-Blank...ryZ71234QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

[Firefyter-emt]

("Create stunning custom pens with these real metal (REM3) pen blanks. These blanks are made with 95% of the real rare earth metal that has been atomized down to the molecular level and combined with special chemical binders to form a new composite material called REM3 (short for "Rare Earth Macro Molecular Metal")

Sounds like powdered pearls in resin to me...(and a bit of used car salesman BS added in.)

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

I know of a turner who has made some pens from "REAL" Mokume Gane useing silver and gold, absolutely stunning, this Guy is selling Snake Oil not Mokume Gane. Read the following Quoted directly from his listing.



"These blanks are made with 95% of the real metal that has been atomized down to the molecular level and mixed with a chemical binder to form a new composite material. The new metal has the same visual characteristics of the source metal with a surface hardness that will allow an unbelievable gem quality finish, yet it will turn on a wood lathe with standard wood turning tools."

Sounds like snake oil to me...

 

[btboone]

Interesting concept. The price of the real stuff is so high that there might be a market for that.

 

[leehljp]

I think the fellow might have a knowledge of Japanese. ON the second picture for blanks, the one that looks like a metal with wood grain named Mokume gane - the 'Mokume' means "fine wood grained" and 'gane' means "gold," or "metal" in certain contexts. That is not the common writing for "gold," but then in combinations with other words in context, that probably is his meaning, if he is using a Japanese label.

Revised Add-in: Bruce's explanation below jogged a brain cell for me. "Gane" in this context IS "metal".

I find it highly unlikely that "Mokume gane" is derived from another language given the Japanese meaning for those words and the look of the blanks. But I have seen that happen.

Free Japanese lesson :
The "Moku" part is a reference to wood that has been crafted, and is not used by the average Japanese although they do know it. It is used primarily within skilled woodworking community. Ki or "key" is the more common word for wood. Moku gives the connotation of fine skill used in bringing the wood to its current state.

 

[btboone]

It is a Japanese term meaning wood eye metal from what I have read. It is a real science to properly make mokume gane, which bonds different metals at below their melting points. The metals stay separate but act as a single metal if it is done correctly. The layers are worked to get the characteristic patterns. The process is very sensitive to any oxygen or contamination in the bond, so the metals must each be chemically cleaned and bound under pressure with very controlled heat. Very expensive learning curve, especially when gold is concerned.

 

[follow3]

I might be crazy, but I think you could order a bottle of brass, or bronze, or whatever metal powder from Artstuff, mix it with PR or Alumalite and cast it like any other blank and you would get the same thing.

You could buy enough supplies to cast 20 of them for the price of 1 on that auction.

Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

Steve

 

[btboone]

I would suppose that in order to get just 5% binder that it's a process that takes hydraulic pressure and heat. It looks much more like a solid metal than polyester with metal bits in it. I would be interested to read about the process. The look is pretty much dead nuts to silver and copper mokume. As I mentioned, the stuff is very expensive. I pay a couple thousand dollars for a little 3 x 3" square of it in sheet form for the gold and silver mix. Copper and silver is nowhere close to that, but still plenty expensive. It takes a lot of labor and very specialized setup to make the real stuff. Being that the real stuff is so expensive, I bet pens could sell for a premium if they looked close enough to it.

 

[YoYoSpin]

I've cast powdered metal in poly resin many times, but in nothing like these 95/5 proportions. A normal PR casting might contain something like 2-3% colorant by volume or weight, including powdered metals. So, if it’s true that these blanks are 95% metal, then I'd expect them to be very heavy and dense. Sounds fishy to me...

 

[Texatdurango]

Always interested in trying new products, I sent this vendor an email saying that his product was being discussed with less than favorable results since no one had heard of it.

I thought it would be nice if one or two of us could get a sample to turn and give an evaluation for the rest of the group since if it's just another resin, I'd just as soon stay with Ed's metallic blanks!

George

 

[Texatdurango]

As I said above, I contacted the vendor in question and received a reply and he was kind enough to send me a few samples to evaluate since we knew nothing of the material. So without further ado, and without getting into what the blanks are made of, how they are made, where they are made, how much they cost, are they worth it, etc, here is my hands on experience with two samples.

I received two “M3 Metal†blanks, one was called nickel silver and measured ¾†square and was 5†long and weighed 5.4 oz, the other was called mokume gane and was ¾†square, 5†long weighing 3.2 oz.

To put these weights into perspective I weighed some of my other blanks of similar size; BOW = 1.8oz, Kingwood = 2.0oz, stabilized box elder burl = 1.8oz, so these new blanks are much heavier.

Using my skew I turned both blanks to ¾†cylinders with no problems, the blanks were similar to several truestone blanks I have turned as they turned into more of a powder than the firm ribbons one associates with resins and acrylics. Turning these was no harder than several of the truestone blanks I have turned, and were actually easier than several truestone compounds I have turned.

Before doing anything else I sanded both cylinders up through 1500 grit then polished with some Flitz metal polish I had on hand. I decided to make the mokume gane blank first and decided it would look nice with the black titanium plating of the Jr Gent kit.

I have yet to decide how to fabricate the nickel silver blank and am thinking it needs to be a closed end design to showcase its beauty. Any suggestions from you artistic types are welcome.

Drilling and further turning was nothing out of the ordinary except for the sanding. I turn with a skew so had a very smooth finish at the bushing diameter so started sanding with 3M 400, 600, then wet sanded with 3M 1000 and 1500 sheets then switched to micro mesh and continued wet sanded up through 12000 grit.

The accompanying instruction sheet said not to use plastic polish due to the high metal content so I used some Flitz polish which I have used for years on metals and plastics and brought the blanks to a nice shine.

I assembled one kit and the finished pen is also shown below and in conclusion I would say these are nice blanks, definitely NOT junk and no “snake oil†present! Will these replace the burls we use everyday, no, but they, just as any other nice material, will find a niche in our pen turners arsenal. The ONLY downside I see is that being metal, will conflict with the metal parts in most kits used so design selection will be critical to pull off a really stunning pen.

Some Photos….

Turning the nickel silver blank

The nickel silver blank before sanding, lots of shiny particles!

The nickel silver blank after some sanding and Flitz metal polish

The mokume gane blank before turning

The mokume blank after the skew

The mokume gane blank after a little sanding and metal polish

Drilling produced a fine shiny powder

You had to see this in person, looked like diamond dust it was so shiny.

The finished pen. Jr Gent black titanium and nothing but metal polish on the blank........ I like it!

 

[wood-of-1kind]

Thanks for the assessment George. Answered all questions that were floating around my mind regarding this product. Your finished mokume pen looks good but based on the relative high cost/unit, I'll pass up on putting it on my 'to purchase list'.

-Peter-

 

[Darley]

Metal ???? never see drill metal turning into powder, is that some kind of clay??

 

[thewishman]

That is what i call "taking initiative." The material looks very nice and the photos are great. Thanks for the test and results.

Chris

 

[billteix]

I have done some research on this blank, and it is real. I also found some commercially built Rollerball and fountain pens made from similar metals (Mokume Gane). Grason Tighe is the company. Pics on the site are of Damascus metal (Gray black iron and stainless steal. There is also a copper and silver, copper and aluminum. All the pens sell starting at 1300 dollars. I for one am going to order some blocks. I been in contact with the person "Mike" who is making them. He is releasing a Damascus metal blank in a few days and then he will be creating another with gold in it. He also offered to create blanks into what ever metal i might find attractive.

 

[btboone]

I'm sure that Tighe uses the real materials though. His dad is a knifemaker, and they have access to the types of tools and suppliers it takes to get the real stuff. I'm sure Tighe uses a CNC lathe.

 

[btboone]

If you are contacting Mike, can you find out if he can do special sizes, like 1" or 1 1/4" diameter? Thanks.

 

[DCBluesman]

These blanks are NOT mokume gane. They are resin. They may well be mixed with metals and they do imitate mokume gane, but make no mistake...these are RESIN blanks. It's highly unlikely that someone will mistake them for the real thing and even more unlikely they will end up in a $1300 pen.

 

[IPD_Mrs]

While George did a fantastic job giving us a chance to preview the product, after doing a little googling and reading, Lou is 100% right. The product looks good for what it is, but compair it to the real stuff even on a computer screen and at best you can call it imitation. Marketing pens made with this resin and calling it mokume gane would constitute fraud in my book.

With that being said, it still makes for a stunning pen if you can find a good match plating wise to go with the kit as George did.

Anyway my 1/2 cents worth.

 

[Texatdurango]

For crying out loud... doesn't anyone think anymore? Do any of you folks really believe you are going to get custom blended precious metal pen blanks for $20 or $25?

After looking at my photos, did you still think these were solid copper and silver hammered together to form one very expensive metal blend? Did you think I would actually turn solid copper and silver into powdery ribbons on my lathe?

Of course these are not solid blocks of REAL precious metals and darn sure aren't blended metals like Damascus steel. As Mike said above, "the product looks for what it is".

The blanks I turned are a type of resin with metal particles in them, enough metal that it makes a difference if you polish with plastic or metal polish. I used the Novus plastic polish and got a very mild shine, then I used my Flitz metal polish and WOW, what a difference.

As stated, they look good for what they are, why not just leave it at that and either like them or not! They are obviously not going to be for everyone just as some would cringe spending $20 for a desert iron wood blank or $45 on a majestic pen kit or $65 for an imperial kit!

 

[DCBluesman]

George - The point of my post was to prevent those who do not know from making a mistake...that's all.

 

[leehljp]

The early definitions oversimplified Mokume Gane, AND "mokume gane" only refered to the ONE blank that looked like layered metal.

The others are not mokume, as Lou noted, but metalic powders in resin form. The seller did not refer to them as mokume, only the one with the layered look.

Here (in Japan) - mokume is NOT "the literal transliteration of wood+eye". Moku is wood; and me is eye as their kanji characters note. However, mokume in the vernacular means curly grained wood.
#26408;#30446; [#12365;#12417;: KIME] grain (of wood), curly grain
#26408;#30446; [#12418;#12367;#12417;: MOKUME] grain (of wood), curly grain

"Gane" in this context does not mean coins or gold but metal. Gane or kane can mean either and the "mokume gane" context is "wood grained looks in metallic form." Those pens would sell for a pretty penny/yen over here. That fine wood grain look is highly revered here. It resembles the old highly valuable swords too - in all of those layers.

IF you were to see the mokuwood shops you would see the grains of some wood cut to resemble the exact grain pattern noted in the mokume gane pen recently posted.



AS to words and their meaning, it greatly gets distorted in the fact that the kanji characters and english look up of the individual words do not equal the meaning in English as it does in Japanese.

Japanese lesson - Sushi is NOT raw fish. Sushi means "with Rice, vinegared rice, or seasoned rice - but never rice by itself." Think of that the next time you go to a sushi bar in the US and say Sushi to a Japanese. The "raw fish" is "O'Sashimi." The Japanese mind set understands that often sushi/rice is served with raw fish.

 

[IPD_Mrs]

George, now that you have one complete, what do you think of the weight of the pen? Does that heavy of a blank effect balance, or does it have more the feel of say a Jr Emperor? Also what about shaping the blank? Can you do more with the material than just B2B? I have yet to turn any of the truestone so I have nothing to compair this to.

Mike & Linda

 

[Texatdurango]

Sorry for the confusion guys, I need to learn to use quotes so folks will know where my thoughts are directed. I'll try again.

Originally posted by billteix

I have done some research on this blank, and it is real.

billteix, if your research has lead you to believe this is the same material as used in the pens on Grason Tighe's website, please do some more research!

Actually this thread is similar to the recent Truestone thread where some folks were actually shocked when they learned that the $8 blank they purchased wasn't indeed real turquoise or some other semi precious stone!

 

[billteix]

i am going to do more research for sure. But as stated in this forum by others. None the less these blanks do have the somewhat like Mokume Gane. I know someone who has a ring which suppose to be Mokume Gane i am going to check that out. Mokume Gane. Mokume-gane ( ; ) (pronounced Moe-koo-may Gah-nay) is a mixed-metal laminate with distinctive layered patterns. Literally translating as "wood eye (i.e., burl) metal", the name was borrowed from one type of pattern created in the forging of swords and other edged weapons. Looking at the sample pen here i see the pattern but it really does not look layered more like a mix "butter scotch swirl pattern."

I feel the cost of these blanks is a bit steep "copper and aluminum" are not all that expensive of a metal. I am not sure if there would be a market for this material on a pen. What are your opinions? Being metal like would give them i suppose great wear ablity.

 

[btboone]

Here's a cool article showing what it takes to make a mokume ring. You can see why they are normally thousands of dollars. http://www.mickyroof.com/creating-mokume1.shtml

 

[Firefyter-emt]

Bruce, I am not much of a jewerly guy myself, but that link you provided.... Dang, those are amazing!

PS... I forgot to get back to you, I did get my ring sized up here. But thanks a million for the offer!

 

[alxe24]

I would like to trythis material. I bet you can get your money's worth out of it, without missleading anyone to believe it is the wrong thing. The looks are great and it does resemble the concept of the material. I can't see why one could not sell this for $150 to $200. I sold a stars and stripes emperor for $250. People pay for unique well made pieces.
The question is what is the best price he would give for a group order. People pay $20 for cactus, snake and other unique blanks already.
Who would care about geting some of them?
Alex

 

[Texatdurango]

I would be interested in a few. As you stated, they are nice blanks in their own right regardless of what they are called.

I also believe that if I set these pens in with my other nice kits they would hold their own and sell. Actually the current price pales in comparison to the $45 I just paid for the flag kits which I realize are not made from real flags, just supposed to resemble the concept of a flag!

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

@$35.00 per which is what I paid for the first 2 that I bought no I wouldn't buy anymore but if we could get them down to $20-$25.00 that might work.

 

[Texatdurango]

Perhaps we can convince the vendor to offer IAP members a discount so we won't have to worry about group buys or dealing with Ebay. Sounds like a good idea, why didn't I think of that earlier?

I'd like to see some more interesting patterns and colors myself, maybe some are in the works. I've got some Jr Emperors just sitting naked in a box waiting for just the right blank with a hint of gold in the pattern to match the centerband and clip.

 

[Monty]

I've emailed him about a discount for a group buy. Will post again when I receive an answer.

 

[Monty]

Just had an answer. He has joined the forum and is planning on offering a discount to members. He will post as soon as his membership is verified (or whatever).

 

[MHKogan]

My name is Michael Kogan and I am a representative of the company that manufactures the M3 metal pen blanks that have caused quite a stir here on the forum. First of all I want to thank George for his unbiased review of our product as well as all of the members that have already purchased them.

I am available to answer any and all questions either here on the forum, through email or on the telephone. Please feel free to contact me at info@MetalPenBlanks.com or (888) 478-6745 with any questions or comments.

Now lets put an end to the "Mokume Gane" debate. Our pen blanks are M3 (MacroMolecular Metal) that when we combine two different M3 metals of contrasting colors we get a blank that resembles the Japanese art metal "Mokume Gane". So while it is not "Mokume Gane" in the traditional sense it is extremely beautiful and shares the wood grain characteristics. That is why we named our version "Mokume Gane" M3.

We will be launching our website shortly that will better explain what M3 is and how it is used. Suffice it to say that millions of dollars have been spent developing this material for other industries such as the aerospace industry, automotive and marine. It just happens that it is also a perfect material for turning exquisite pens and other small items.

The material is made from atomized metal. This is metal that is put into a special machine that heats it to a very high temperature and then shoots high pressure water at it causing it to explode into microscopic sized particles resembling a fine powder. The atomized metal powder is then mixed mix with a small amount of resin and other chemicals (depending on its use) which under great pressure causes a chemical reaction. The resulting material is M3 MacroMolecular Metal. It contains as much as 95% of the original metal, it won't conduct heat or electricity, it will patina (iron will rust) but it won't corrode and it won't cause electrolysis when it is combined with dissimilar metals.

I hope that I have answered some questions and removed some of the mystery of M3. I will address the "Group Buy" in my next post.

 

[MHKogan]

A number of members have requested some special pricing for forum members or perhaps a "Group Buy" and we are willing to accomodate. The materials and the processes involved here are really quite complicated and expensive and we have worked very hard to get the pricing down to where it is today. That being said if we are selling direct to the forum members rather than selling through eBay we can pass the 5% savings to the members. So members that send me an email requesting M3 pen blanks and pay through PayPal will receive a 5% discount.

"Group Buy"
Currently our volume discount is buy 5 get 1 free which is a 20% savings. We will extend this 20% discount to the group as follows:
1)Send us an email with your order before Friday December 14th
2)Include the words "Group Buy" in the subject line of the email
3)Pay for your order through PayPal
4)Pay a flat $5 shipping and handling fee
5)We will discount the order by 20%

Current Pricing:

Copper, Bronze, Brass, Stainless Steel, Nickel Silver, Iron, Aluminum
3/4"x3/4"x5" = $25 ($20 as part of the "Group Buy")
1"x1"x6" = $35 ($28 as part of the "Group Buy")

Mokume Gane M3- Copper and Aluminum
3/4"x3/4"x5" = $35 ($28 as part of "Group Buy")
1"x1"x6" = $45 ($36 as part of "Group Buy")

Coming Soon: "Damascus Steel M3"

 

[mrplace]

Originally posted by btboone

Here's a cool article showing what it takes to make a mokume ring. You can see why they are normally thousands of dollars. http://www.mickyroof.com/creating-mokume1.shtml

Here is a guy who makes it in Argentina.
http://www.aescustomknives.com.ar/docs/tutorial12.htm

If you want to buy the REAL stuff this guy has quoted me larger diameter pieces.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Mokume-Gane-bar...ryZ41369QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

[btboone]

I looked into getting the equipment to do it myself. It's a very expensive learning curve, especially with the precious metals, which are better for rings, so I bite the bullet and pay others that have the learining curve down for it. Time is money as well, so the cost of the stuff, even if very expensive avoids the money lost in using your time.

 

[Gary Max]

Heck I talked with Mike yesterday on the phone---I will post a couple pics of the pens I turn as soon as the blanks get here. We are always looking to add high end products to our inventory.

 

[alxe24]

Just to clarify. is the group buy for 5 pieces minimum? or a couple as well?
Thanks for your the assistance.

Originally posted by MHKogan

A number of members have requested some special pricing for forum members or perhaps a "Group Buy" and we are willing to accomodate. The materials and the processes involved here are really quite complicated and expensive and we have worked very hard to get the pricing down to where it is today. That being said if we are selling direct to the forum members rather than selling through eBay we can pass the 5% savings to the members. So members that send me an email requesting M3 pen blanks and pay through PayPal will receive a 5% discount.

"Group Buy"
Currently our volume discount is buy 5 get 1 free which is a 20% savings. We will extend this 20% discount to the group as follows:
1)Send us an email with your order before Friday December 14th
2)Include the words "Group Buy" in the subject line of the email
3)Pay for your order through PayPal
4)Pay a flat $5 shipping and handling fee
5)We will discount the order by 20%

Current Pricing:

Copper, Bronze, Brass, Stainless Steel, Nickel Silver, Iron, Aluminum
3/4"x3/4"x5" = $25 ($20 as part of the "Group Buy")
1"x1"x6" = $35 ($28 as part of the "Group Buy")

Mokume Gane M3- Copper and Aluminum
3/4"x3/4"x5" = $35
1"x1"x6" = $45

Coming Soon: "Damascus Steel M3"

 

[MHKogan]

The "Group Buy" discount is good for any quantity. Buy 1, 2, 3 whatever and get the discount as if you bought 100.