PMG Opinions

[greeneyedblackcat]

I'm looking to get feedback on the pen making guild, I have heard both positive and negative things about the PMG and would like your opinions. I have custom built a pen with a revolutionary new concept and I am trying to decide if there is any benefit to submitting it to the PMG before sharing it with the masses. Any input would be appreciated

 

[Gary Max]

Personally--------I can't keep up with everything going on here.

 

[edman2]

Some of the finest pen turners in the country. The ones I have communicated with have been very helpful. It depends on what you hope to gain from the membership. If you do it so you can make more money or to boost your ego, don't bother. If you do it because you have a deep respect for the art of pen turning and would be willing to promote its improvment and will work to advance the art, then go for it! You will be in great company!

 

[alphageek]

As one of the people who suggested it to you... I don't know a TON of the history/politics of the PMG... All I know is that some of the coolest custom pens I have seen have come from people who have joined that group. And your pens are in that class.

Dean

 

[its_virgil]

The Pen Maker's Guild has been directly involved in championing penturning and maybe even elevating what we as penturners do to a new level of acceptance. Stylus magazine featured pens made by PMG members in two consecutive issues. These articles were directly related to efforts of a couple of the members. Also, in the last three or four years penturning rotations/demonstrations have been included in several symnposiums including the Utah Woodturning Symposium (9 demos this year and 8 last year), the AAW Annual Synmposium, and the SWAT Symposium in Texas. These demonstrations were also directly related to efforts of members of the PMG.

BTW...I also consider the 3 penturning forums to also have been instrumental in making penturning, and what we as penturners do, more widely known and elevating the awareness of penturning.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

 

[DCBluesman]

Be advised that your submission to the PMG must not be shown anywhere else prior to their review.

 

[greeneyedblackcat]

Be advised that your submission to the PMG must not be shown anywhere else prior to their review.

Yup, I'm keeping this one under wraps for now

 

[aggromere]

You make some wild crazy stuff. I would submit and see what they say. In reading up on it, it seems unique is one of the top considerations.

 

[its_virgil]

With all due respect Lou, your comment is not one of the rules,although, I agree with what you say 100%. I do think a submitted pen should not be shown and discussed on public forums prior to submittal and only after a decision has been made.

From the PMG application instructions: While not a requirement, we suggest that you not show and discuss the application pen in a public forum beforehand.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

Be advised that your submission to the PMG must not be shown anywhere else prior to their review.

 

[Ligget]

Don I have always wondered about that, why should the pen you are going to submit for entry not be shown on forums beforehand?

 

[greeneyedblackcat]

With all due respect Lou, your comment is not one of the rules,although, I agree with what you say 100%. I do think a submitted pen should not be shown and discussed on public forums prior to submittal and only after a decision has been made.

From the PMG application instructions: While not a requirement, we suggest that you not show and discuss the application pen in a public forum beforehand.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

Don, I have not shown or discussed the details of my pen on this forum, my intent was to find out more about the PMG and form my own opinions.

 

[cnirenberg]

Jim,
Personally I can't wait to see what you have to submit, and when you do, post it here afterwards. Your creativity and craftsmanship are top notch and should blow them away. My experience with the PMG members has been very positive, and I know one personally. He has been more than helpful and has been a real inspiration.

 

[its_virgil]

The guild elders who evaluate the submission pen need and want to do so without knowing who made the pen. The only guild elder who will know the maker's name is the one whose turn it is to receive the application and pen. The others will evaluate it without knowing the owner's and maker's name. They would like to make their decisions with total anonymity. I can think of a couple of other reasons, but I think this is the major one.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

Don I have always wondered about that, why should the pen you are going to submit for entry not be shown on forums beforehand?

 

[Daniel]

I am one that has said a lot of not so positive things about the guild.
I want to say some good things about it though. First it is full of some of the best people I know not to mention very dedicated pan makers.

My only real problem with the guild is how it was formed. It does seem to have become accepted as some sort of status to be a member, and that acceptance comes from the penturning community as a whole. As for what the Guild actually contributes to penturning as a whole I really have no idea. My suspicion is that the talent is actually built in groups such as this and then a few manage to make it into the guild.

One of the biggest problems I have with the guild is that non of the people you have to be approved by ever had to meet the same requirment. one set of rules for one person anouther for the rest. My question is where is the proof that the leaders of the guild are even qualified to be in it? Thet qualification rests in only one place. someone that decided they wanted to start a group single handedly decided they belonged. no one ever asked the penturning community who should lead up a "Guild"

I honestly think that Guild should be removed from the name and it be called what it really is. The Private Club of Advanced Penmakers. "Guild" sounds good, but what has it ever accomplished to support that it is in fact a "Guild". In fact what should a group be expected to do in order to be considered a Guild. Isn't a guild supposed to be the people that advance a craft in every way? promote it expand it. have there little booth at every pen show possible, that sort of thing? Those are just some ideas I have of what a Gild woudl be doing. writing articles to have published in woodworking magazines. becomeing leaders in the wood working commuity as a whole. have a prominent presence in any penmaking realted groups or organizations. taking steps to make the craft known to the general public. promoting the idea of pen making in school shop classes. I can go on. To me those things would start looking like a guild to me. one primary job of a guild in my mind is to make room for the guy at the bottom to have a chance. I would not swear to it, But I am not awaire of a lot of that going on in what I call Richards private club of penmakers.

 

[ed4copies]

The Pen Maker's Guild has been directly involved in championing penturning and maybe even elevating what we as penturners do to a new level of acceptance. Stylus magazine featured pens made by PMG members in two consecutive issues. These articles were directly related to efforts of a couple of the members. Also, in the last three or four years penturning rotations/demonstrations have been included in several symnposiums including the Utah Woodturning Symposium (9 demos this year and 8 last year), the AAW Annual Synmposium, and the SWAT Symposium in Texas. These demonstrations were also directly related to efforts of members of the PMG.

BTW...I also consider the 3 penturning forums to also have been instrumental in making penturning, and what we as penturners do, more widely known and elevating the awareness of penturning.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

Rich and Barry get a fair amount of "Ink", Lou and Anthony get a little. How many members are there? And how many have benefited from publicity? That ratio would be interesting.

I would NOT submit, hoping to have my work featured in a mag. or any other type of national publicity, unless you arrange it yourself.

FWIW

 

[jttheclockman]

If I am not mistaken didn't Jeff Powell AKA workinforwood just get in and he showed his pen here before I saw his name in there???? Jeff where are you????

 

[BRobbins629]

I have very mixed feelings about the guild. I have many friends who are members who I respect as penmakers. If you read why it was formed in the first place, it did seem to make sense - a place for more advanced penmakers to share thoughts without all the newbie questions. Many things they have provided in the way of publicity and tutorials are well done and serve the community well.

Like Daniel, the criteria for entry is what always puzzled me. All you need is one really good pen which can be a kit pen and although I don't have any real knowledge of previous submissions, it appears that the criteria has been inconsistant. To me a true guild would require demonstration of knowledge in all the facets of pen making - nib tuning, threading, repair, inks, history, etc. not just one pen.

 

[Russianwolf]

I agree somewhat with Daniel. I have not seen any real benefit to joining the PMG over being a member here and have an issue with one of their requirements.

"They should execute their "masterpiece" for submission along with a write-up of why their submission helps move the state of the art of pen making further. Perfection in fit and finish is expected along with a new or novel application in materials, construction, decoration, design or other unique feature(s)."

Guilds are not intended for the purpose of advancing a craft par se, but for setting a standard level of craftsmanship. Many guilds from the days of lore asked apprentices to make a particular pieces (a workbench for example). Promotion to guild member was based on how well you made that piece, not how you may have added something to it (a screw vice, and dog holes).These items may have made the decision easier for the master, but were not a requirement to gain membership.

By setting the requirement as they have, the first member could make a very nice stock kit pen. Nothing special, just nicely executed and finished. The next person now is required to one up it by making a closed end for example. And so on. My problem is, the first person may not be able to achieve any of the results close to those that later members are required to even gain admittance. From what I can see, PMG isn't a Guild.

 

[jleiwig]

As an outsider who hasn't gotten full blown into pen turning yet, I see much better quality pens posted here than any of the gallery pens on the guild site.

It is my personal opinion that the site and the photography, and the pens are dated last generation stuff. To my mind to be admitted to a guild, you have to have achieved a body of work that culminates in a single work of art that defines who you are as an artist.

I don't know, but I wouldn't want to be compared to a segmented corian pen for admission into the guild. Really? A corian pen? For a group that is supposed to be the creme de la creme?

I guess what I'm saying is how can something be taken seriously as the pinnacle of acheivement when there are first timers here posting better quality stuff?

 

[Daniel]

Ed, I do realize that the members of the guild are some of the most active persons in penmaking. Writing articles, making exceptional examples of our work, being active in demos etc. this still does not establish in my mind that if this is the work of the guild in which then the rest of penturning gains a benefit. or the other way around. I tend to think it is the other way around. As I said I do not know what goes on in the guild. I know a lot of what goes on here. I saw articles being written long before the guild was even an idea. the symposium and people demoing at it likewise.
TO me it is the differnce between is the Gild causing any of this onit's own or jsut grabbing the talent, effort, dedication when it has developed elswhere. there will always be some degree of that as you need to become involved enough somewhere to then qualify to be in a guild. but I have not noticed any effort that I woud consider to be teh Guilds. It can claim that it's memebrs have done such and such. was this accomplishment due to any benefit of being a guild member? If so how, how has the guild specifically facilitated any advancment of penturning in any way? did it fund demonstrations, did it fund the participation of it's members to in any function? did it prepair any of it's memebrs to participate in any way that they could not have gotten from other penturning groups? Extra support or even recognition that opened up oportunities. if so then maybe the Guild is starting to have some impact in a way i think a guild should be having an impact. to me a guild has the power to open doors that otherwise could not be opened. it has the ability to do what other organizations cannot. So far I simply have not seen enough of this for it to be noticed. Not any that I would attribute to the guild. memebrs of the guild writing articles, when they wrote articles before the guilds existance is not a credit to the guild in any way to me.
last time I visited the guild forum very little if anything was actualy happening.

 

[Paul in OKC]

I like the idea of the guild. I agree with what Don said about it advancing the craft of what we, or at least some, desire to achieve in making our pens. I have been a member for some time, though not much of a poster there. Most all the pens shown there get shown here as well. I like a challenge, and the guild is that, IMHO, of something to shoot for. Like what was said above, if you are doing it for ego, or something along that line, I think you will be disappointed. Go for it!

 

[ed4copies]

MY PERCEPTION of the guild is a core group of people who have made contacts in the pen world, with a large "membership" who have little or no say in the guild.

The "guild leadership" can then tell Stylus and Pen World that they have xxxx members, lending more credibility to those leaders' words. And, that handful of folks who meet regularly at the shows, continue to be featured. (NOTHING wrong with this: however, I don't see how the "average member" benefits).

It is a tool for the promotion of penmaking, by promoting a handful of selected "founders" and other more prominent members (define prominent as you see fit).

They make GREAT pens. But, so do a lot of other people who don't need "Membership" in an "elite" group. Wouldn't the world be boring, if we all agreed on everything???

 

[workinforwood]

I did not show my guild pen before I was accepted into the guild. Other than that little fact, I have nothing to say on the subject of the Guild. I get my magazine articles on my own, just hard work and determination.

 

[Daniel]

Before I end up with a mail box full of messages wondering who i have it in for. I want to for once make it clear why the guild calling itself a guild is really an issue for me.

First it is not what a lot of people have accused it of of being. which in a nut shell is that I have some burr up my butt at someone.

It is quite true that penturning is pulling against a general perception that it is what people do when they do not want to do real woodworking.

This is not nearly as true today as it was even just a few years ago. Much of the reason for this change in attitudes has been articles written in woodworking magazines. The presence of penturners work at symposiums, the involvment of pentuners in doing demos. as well as penturning starting to incorporate some degrees of craftsmanship that simply cannot be ignored.

We cannot expect the world to take us any more seriously than we demonstrate we take ourselves. To me the word Guild has a huge indication that this is what the penturning community considers to be the best of it's best. in the case of this guild that could not be further from the truth. the Guild is on fact one persons idea of what is the best of the best. Yet the world will still look at it as penturning as a wholes idea.

Unless anyone was willing to actually take a close hard look at the establishment of the guild this would likely never be known.

So to make my thought clearer, lets say that I do convince the president of the AAW to take a hard serious look at penturning as a seriously recongnized form of woodworking on it's own. One obvious place to start looking would be a place calling itself the guild. In the event this happened, what would this established and recognized person of authority in the woodworking world find?

Her is just one example of many many examples of some things I have noticed that are not good. there are many that are good but in my mind it only takes a few bad points to undermine the recognition. and any blatant ones tend to cause people to look at penturners and just snicker.

my example is that the very person that established the guild, that took the sole responsibility of appointing it's elders. and that every decisions concerning the foundation of the guild. does not even posses the knowledge of shop equipment that woudl be gained from having read better homes and gardens wood shop series of books. This is not ment to be an insult. is is true Richard publically insulted me over an issue of how to fine tune a band saw in order to get it to cut a straight line when the suggestion I made came straight from such a newbies source of information. as far as I know he does not posses this knowledge even today. the net effect to anyone that does consider themselves to be a serious woodworker is that penturning is a joke.

Even in the penturning community it is pretty much accepted that because it is a guild it must be something worth being in. being a member means you have been recognized as one of the best. But I never see anyone ask, Recognized by who?
who are these elders? and what qualifies them to be Elders? Who decided that these are the people we want set forward as the best examples of our craft?

I think the guild and how it was formed is a huge mistake and underminds the ability of penturning to be recognized as a distinct and serious part of woodworking. It is to easy to assume that Guild means it is an example of penturnings best when in fact it is only the idea of one person and what they think is best. And although this person is making a statment for the entire community He has made it more than evident that any comment from that community is not welcome. To be a member of the guild requires that you turn your back to the very people that have made penturing what it is and make a statement intentional or not that there voice is no longer needed or desired. when in fact the only true input of the guild comes via it's members involvment in that very community.

It is not Richards fault that people will make the assumptions that they will about the name of his group. But does not change the truth that they will, they do, and that for me adds a huge burden to just what his group now demonstrates about what my craft is. very few of the members of the guild would qualify to be leaders in my opinon, and non of the elders are qualified to be elders. no insult to the elders intended but in my mind qualificaton to be an Elder would require far more than just one person deciding to invite you. sorry but resumes would be involved heavily as well as things like history of involvment and accomplishments in the craft.

In contrast, I once read a comment by one of the current Elders that their invitation to no only join the guild, but be an elder, came as a complete suprise. they had no idea that they would even be asked. now ask yourself. is this the attitude and effort that you would expect a person to have to go through to be the leader of the supposidly best of the best. of course for you to be a member you are required to go all out and create original never before seen work. but your leaders didn't even need to have a desire or thought about getting in. something just wrong as all get out in that for me.

 

[Mudder]

..... How many members are there? .......

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PenMakersGuild/?yguid=74663167


According to the Yahoo groups site there are currently 80 members. I have been a member for a couple of years now.

 

[jttheclockman]

I did not know of all the requirements and tried to join just to see some of the photos and was REJECTED. To be rejected into a forum that is on a worlwide net to me is pretty snobish. I just stay here thank you very much. My work will never be world class. I get blown away with the work that is posted here so this is my inspiration. :yin-yang:

 

[Russianwolf]

I wonder, does anyone in the know know if Broadwell or Tighe have been invited to join? I would think that any group like this would try their best to have some of the biggest names as members.

 

[Daniel]

Mike, you touch on one thing I do notice. Everyone seems to have there own idea of what it is. yet nobody really seems to know what it is. Even my worst imaginations are only my imaginations. is the guild really having any of the impact I "Worry" about. the truth is I have not seen any evidence of it after several years of it's existence. Pretty much the Guild is just it's quiet little group. Doing what ever it is doing. It seems to get brought up once or twice a year and tossed around, then it goes back to being it's quiet little group.
By the way, I do agree that in the Yahoo forums format a quiet little group is not only a good idea it very probably is a necessary idea, shoot around here a quiet little area is needed at times. there are times when issues need to be discussed by informed, committed, focused individuals without the distraction of every opinion in the group. That is why when we had a board of directors we took it pretty much off sight for our meetings. we still got flooded with opinions when we announced decisions from those meetings. so I do agree that among the masses is not always the place to make cutting edge advancements. and even if ideas are born among the masses it is not necessarily the best place to develop those ideas. I also believe that it is this removal from the masses that is at the heart of Richards motivation to form the guild.

Personally I would like to see a guild, a true guild be formed. on that is developed on a sound foundation, supported by the penturning community and that really does demonstrate the best of the best that penturning has to offer. based upon the criteria set by the community not an individual.

That would be a monsterous task to accomplish. but should a Guild be easy in any way? Easy to form, easy to become a member of, easy to reamin a member of? should it be setting back watching what is going on or should it be at the leading edge of what is going on? should it be influenced by the masses or the influence to the masses?

Think about it, how much of a guild can the guild be when so many penturners don't even know it exists.

 

[PR_Princess]

Daniel…a rose by any other name. Mike..I don't think that you get invited to the PMG. You have to make the decision to join.

Green Eyed. I think that your pens are unique. I believe that you would do well, should you choose to apply. Personally, I see no detriment in being a member of guild, but I do see some potential benefits. What those turn out to be, will for the most part, be dependent on you. But in the end analysis, what do you really have to lose by submitting your application?

 

[Russianwolf]

Daniel, I honestly think IAP is much closer to being a Guild than PMG is.

In the guild shops of old you had three distinct roles. Apprentices, who were new to the craft and learning the basics. They would at some point graduate to being a Journeyman, who was competent at the craft and was accepted in the guild. And after finding their signature/calling they would become Masters, usually owning a shop.

We have people that fit in all three of those catagories here. How quickly one advances is based totally on their progression. I myself would consider myself a journeyman at best. I'm competent enough that my work can be sold with satisfaction, but haven't yet found my signature style. Others like Steve and Bruce, I would call Masters. They turn out works of art that are original in concept and execution.

But a guild would not survive by excluding the journeymen. Some of the best ideas I've seen have come from people during their journeyman stage. They are thinking constantly about possibilities, and no one laughs when the possibility flops (as they would if it were a Master who should be able to think enough ahead to avoid that).

Back then People could go to a guild shop and they knew that they would receive a quality product. The guild member understood that he not only represented himself, but all the other guild shops. Poor craftmanship would be a reason for them to be removed from the guild (if not killed outright). You could find nice product from non-guild shops, but it was more of a buyer beware proposition.

I would liken it to having your car fixed. If you go to a dealership, it'll likely cost more, but you know it will get fixed and they'll warranty it. Go to a a small garage and the guy may be as good or better than the dealer, or he could put Windex in your transmission to quiet the noise until it breaks all-together (I know someone who had it happen) and charge you the same price.

 

[DCBluesman]

This subject gets side-tracked and misinformation is posted every time it comes up. Let's level the playing field and let the PMG define itself.

About the Pen Makers Guild

Creation of the Pen Makers Guild

The Pen Makers Guild was formed in July of 2003. The Guild was an outgrowth of the explosion in new pen makers joining the Yahoo Penturners Group. The Yahoo Penturners Group had grown from 20 to over 2000. It is now over 3000 strong. With the large numbers of new members, the topics were always returning to the very basics to accommodate that continuing influx of very beginner penturners. There was little opportunity to expand into the more advanced topics of pen turning and pen making. The Pen Makers Guild was formed to provide a forum for those more advanced topics. It was planned that as penturners advanced their skills, they could migrate to the Guild as appropriate.

Membership in the Guild

To help keep the Guild topics from continually returning to the fundamentals and keep the number of members at a manageable level, it was decided that membership in the Guild would require application. A structure, reminiscent of the middle age guilds, was put in place to have applicants submit a masterpiece to the Guild Council for review and potential acceptance. Initially, applicants submitted a photograph and description of their work as their application. This was determined to be unworkable after a short time since a photograph doesn't really show the flawless fit and finish that are required as a minimum for entry. The Guild now requires that the actual pen be submitted for examination by one of the Council Members for physical review. Potential members are accepted into membership after a vote of the five Council Members. The Council Members of the Penmakers Guild are Kurt Hertzog, Rich Kleinhenz, Pat Lawson, Jay Pickens, and Mike Roux.

Application to the Guild

Any pen maker is welcome to apply for membership into the Pen Makers Guild. They should execute their "masterpiece" for submission along with a write-up of why their submission helps move the state of the art of pen making further. Perfection in fit and finish is expected along with a new or novel application in materials, construction, decoration, design or other unique feature(s). The pen and description is mailed to the selected Council Member for review, photographing, and sharing with the other 4 Council Members. This receiving responsibility is rotated among the Council Members. The Council reviews and discusses the application piece and then vote on the applicant's submission. With five Council Members, there are no ties and a decision is made. Applicants that are rejected are encouraged to reapply. After a decision is made, the applicant's pen is returned to them. More details available here.

Benefits of membership in the Guild

Membership in the Pen Makers Guild is not needed for following the discussions on the Yahoo Pen Makers Guild group and viewing the contents of the Pen Makers Guild website. However, only members of the guild can post to the discussion or add photos of their work to the website galleries. Members are also allowed to use the Guild logo on their personal websites and in their trade show booths.

As far as I know, there are no other promises or assertions.

 

[Daniel]

Lou, It woudl be nice if the Guild could in fact define itself. The truth is that is not the case. the masses define it mostly with little more info than reading the word Guild.
It would also be far more credible to look at what the guild has to say about itself if this was not the third or fourth statement I have seen they have written.

 

[Mudder]

I did not know of all the requirements and tried to join just to see some of the photos and was REJECTED.

John,

The gallery is here and anyone can view:

http://www.penmakersguild.com/

 

[greeneyedblackcat]

Daniel…a rose by any other name. Mike..I don't think that you get invited to the PMG. You have to make the decision to join.

Green Eyed. I think that your pens are unique. I believe that you would do well, should you choose to apply. Personally, I see no detriment in being a member of guild, but I do see some potential benefits. What those turn out to be, will for the most part, be dependent on you. But in the end analysis, what do you really have to lose by submitting your application?

Dawn, Thanks for the kind words, I didn't know this would be such a hot topic. I was just trying to figure out what exactly the pen guild was and why there were so many opinions. I am more than willing to share my ideas with everyone, just looking for the best way to do it.

 

[alphageek]

Dawn, Thanks for the kind words, I didn't know this would be such a hot topic. I was just trying to figure out what exactly the pen guild was and why there were so many opinions. I am more than willing to share my ideas with everyone, just looking for the best way to do it.

Wow.. neither did I... I just know that there is a few here that I have seen make pens that got them into the guild and I think yours 'compete' well.... No matter what you do... Good luck and keep making those cool things.

 

[wdcav1952]

As Lou pointed out, there is almost always a ton of information and mis-information posted when the PMG is mentioned.

I have met Rich K through numerous emails and found him to be a no nonsense person who is more than willing to help anyone who shows some motivation to help themselves. At the Yahoo group, I once asked a question and noted that since I was in a hurry (or something like that) I had not tried to look up the answer myself. Rich point blank asked me why had I not attempted to find the answer on my own. After getting over being a bit pissed, I realized that his answer was like that of a teacher who being asked how to spell a word, told me to look it up. My thought was "how can I look up a word I can't spell?" Well, you open a dictionary and try to get close by spelling as much of the word as you can. On the way, you learn not only how to spell the word in question, but you stand to learn other words that will improve your vocabulary. Like here at the IAP library, there is an incredible source of knowledge at the Yahoo group if you choose to take the time to browse through it. I often have found answers to questions I did not know that I needed to ask. For example, I found that you don't put pens with a fresh CA finish in a closed box before I ruined any pens by doing so.

If I start a new group, I have the right to name it as I choose. For example I might start the Bushing to Bushing Guild. As the founder of the BBG, I have the right to limit access, membership, hair color and whatever else appeals to me. If someone gets angry at me personally because I did not choose that person to be in my BBG when I started it, that has to be their own particular lions' den, not mine. Some of the most ardent opposition to the PMG comes from those who were not selected when it started. The word guild, as other words that have been in our vocabulary for literally hundreds of years, has evolved in meaning. I sincerely doubt that many people picture the medieval guilds when they hear the word.

any of various medieval associations, as of merchants or artisans, organized to maintain standards and to protect the interests of its members, and that sometimes constituted a local governing body

In my opinion, modern readers are more likely to think of a guild as this definition:

an organization of persons with related interests, goals, etc., esp. one formed for mutual aid or protection.

As far as people complaining about their "right" to join my BBG, they do not have that right. A "C" student can whine all they want, but they will not be accepted to an honor society that requires a certain grade point average.

Let me specify that I have never and almost certainly will never apply for membership in the PMG. I enjoy pen turning and admire the artistry of others who go far beyond my simple B2B efforts. I also appreciate the help and information I get directly and indirectly from other pen turners be they PMG members or not. Certain members I mentally place on a pedestal because of the common sense information they share.

Finally, with regards to the PMG, if you like the PMG and what they do, fine. If you do not, that is fine also, but please do not try to bring it down and demean it to others. Simply ignore PMG posts if you do not approve of the PMG. Calling out individuals by name to belittle their accomplishments is small and mean spirited and diminishes the person who does so.

 

[greeneyedblackcat]

As Lou pointed out, there is almost always a ton of information and mis-information posted when the PMG is mentioned.

I have met Rich K through numerous emails and found him to be a no nonsense person who is more than willing to help anyone who shows some motivation to help themselves. At the Yahoo group, I once asked a question and noted that since I was in a hurry (or something like that) I had not tried to look up the answer myself. Rich point blank asked me why had I not attempted to find the answer on my own. After getting over being a bit pissed, I realized that his answer was like that of a teacher who being asked how to spell a word, told me to look it up. My thought was "how can I look up a word I can't spell?" Well, you open a dictionary and try to get close by spelling as much of the word as you can. On the way, you learn not only how to spell the word in question, but you stand to learn other words that will improve your vocabulary. Like here at the IAP library, there is an incredible source of knowledge at the Yahoo group if you choose to take the time to browse through it. I often have found answers to questions I did not know that I needed to ask. For example, I found that you don't put pens with a fresh CA finish in a closed box before I ruined any pens by doing so.

If I start a new group, I have the right to name it as I choose. For example I might start the Bushing to Bushing Guild. As the founder of the BBG, I have the right to limit access, membership, hair color and whatever else appeals to me. If someone gets angry at me personally because I did not choose that person to be in my BBG when I started it, that has to be their own particular lions' den, not mine. Some of the most ardent opposition to the PMG comes from those who were not selected when it started. The word guild, as other words that have been in our vocabulary for literally hundreds of years, has evolved in meaning. I sincerely doubt that many people picture the medieval guilds when they hear the word.

any of various medieval associations, as of merchants or artisans, organized to maintain standards and to protect the interests of its members, and that sometimes constituted a local governing body

In my opinion, modern readers are more likely to think of a guild as this definition:

an organization of persons with related interests, goals, etc., esp. one formed for mutual aid or protection.

As far as people complaining about their "right" to join my BBG, they do not have that right. A "C" student can whine all they want, but they will not be accepted to an honor society that requires a certain grade point average.

Let me specify that I have never and almost certainly will never apply for membership in the PMG. I enjoy pen turning and admire the artistry of others who go far beyond my simple B2B efforts. I also appreciate the help and information I get directly and indirectly from other pen turners be they PMG members or not. Certain members I mentally place on a pedestal because of the common sense information they share.

Finally, with regards to the PMG, if you like the PMG and what they do, fine. If you do not, that is fine also, but please do not try to bring it down and demean it to others. Simply ignore PMG posts if you do not approve of the PMG. Calling out individuals by name to belittle their accomplishments is small and mean spirited and diminishes the person who does so.

Sounds logical, Hey Cav, are you accepting applicant's to that BBG guild ? What color hair do I have to have for admittance? (GREEN???)

 

[jttheclockman]

John,

The gallery is here and anyone can view:

http://www.penmakersguild.com/

Now here is the best information I got out of this topic. Thanks Scott. When I submitted my application I put down I was interested in seeing the gallery and was told it was for members only. I just thought it was another pen turning forum. Did not know it had such a history. HA HA I can see their pens.:tongue:

 

[wdcav1952]

Sounds logical, Hey Cav, are you accepting applicant's to that BBG guild ? What color hair do I have to have for admittance? (GREEN???)

Catman, I just checked - the approved hair color is graying and thinning!

 

[penhead]

WHAT...wait a minute...you have to have hair to get into the BBG..??!!
Well, that's not fair.

How can it be a guild then, you saying back several hundred years when the word guild was first stated that all men had hair...I don't think so..... %>)

Catman, I just checked - the approved hair color is graying and thinning!