Has "KITLESS" outlived its usefulness?

[Texatdurango]

Back in 2008 I used the term KITLESS in a post to describe the new direction I wanted to take my pen making by making pens without the typical bag of parts found in pen kits.

Since then the term has been widely used, quite often being the source of some rather silly debates and even meaningless arguments with some going to great lengths trying to find the perfect or at least the most appropriate definition of the phrase.

Today there are so many folks pushing the boundaries of their pen making skills that the term KITLESS almost sounds like it doesn't belong anymore as a phrase describing some absolutely gorgeous creations.

Wouldn't it sound more appropriate to just say my CUSTOM pen to describe your wonderful creations? Members here can easily see that it has no kit parts and that is why I think it adds no value to the description anymore.

I've actually visited a few member web sites where they actually use the term KITLESS in their pen description. Do we want our customers even thinking of kits or partial kits or no kits when looking at our custom hand crafted creations?

Just thinking out loud! Am I onto something or am I all washed up?

 

[glycerine]

I know what you are saying... but technically "custom" describes all of our pens anyway, whether we use kits or not. Heck, I say we all just use the word "pen"!

 

[jd99]

How about "extraordinary pens", could mean kitless, partial kit, and kit pens; or anything in between.

 

[its_virgil]

I've mentioned in several posts that I never liked the term "kitless" and that other more well know penmakers don't use that term. They just make pens. Thanks George, I thought maybe it was falling on deaf ears.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

 

[Haynie]

I agree. If I was not on prescription narcotics I might be able to form a complete thought.

 

[Glenn McCullough]

I am with you in this one. Kitless says to the inexperienced that something is missing, please explain!! No!
I use the terms components or hardware, removing "kit" from my vocabulary.
I would love to see the word KIT removed from all our and our suppliers' vocabulary.

 

[Gary Beasley]

Maybe "freestyle" would be more apt.

 

[plano_harry]

In other construction hobbies, the term scratch built or scratch differentiates items built directly from raw materials or elements not packaged for the specific end result. Somehow scratch pens just doesn't sound like the right word though

 

[Displaced Canadian]

When I sell/ give pens I don't say what kit it is, I just call it a pen. I think custom is better. I also think some terms like "kit pen" should stay in the shop. Instead of saying sierra kit, how about sierra style.

 

[azamiryou]

I agree "kitless" is sort-of meaningless, but I don't think custom works... to me, that sounds like it's been "customized" by the user or to the user's specifications. So if I design and build a pen from scratch and sell it, that's not custom, but if a buyer chooses a blank and component set and plating and I make the pen for them, that is a custom pen custom-made for that customer.

We all make handmade pens. Almost every pen shown on this forum includes parts that were purchased and parts that the craftsman/artist worked on. Those purchased parts may be commercially made, or handmade by someone else. It's all on a continuum, which makes it very difficult to draw lines.

In the end, they're all pens.

 

[chriselle]

Anything with the word "kit" in it is NEVER muttered outside of the IAP. But amongst ourselves...meh...until one of you geniuseses...:wink: comes up with a better term I'm cool with it.

 

[Jjartwood]

Self Design ?

 

[Holz Mechaniker]

How about we use a term found in the custom automotive shops.
A "One off Custom"

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

I've been one of the biggest naysayers of using the word kit in any fashion or form. I went so far as to calling them component-less but if you think of it they have components, a custom section, custom cap, custom body, in other words a custom pen, with components. So George "Custom Pens", or even just "Pens" but nothing with the words kit or less.

 

[johncrane]

I'm over the word kitless' every pen has parts,lets put it to bed and use (DESIGNER PEN) just my 2cents worth. i like Roy's too Custom pen

 

[Linarestribe]

I like rollerball, fountain or ballpoint the best.

 

[Gary_Claus]

I call all of my pens eccentric.

Definition:

"deviating from the recognized or customary character"

 

[RustySplinters]

As someone who has only made one "kitless" pen, I personally like the term and trying to work towards the ultimate art form in lathe pen making and creating a "kitless" pen.

But I see where you are coming form.. it's become an arbitrary, ambiguous, and overused term that can mean many different things.

The problem is the word "kit". We in IAP use it because it sets some pens apart from others. But it cheapens our pens in the thoughts of any buyer! Who would buy a pen made from a "paint by number" instruction booklet.

Why not call them rollerballs, fountain pens, and ballpoints? A sierra style ballpoint or (as for kitless) a turtle fountain pen or HBR and ebonite rollerball.
Thats my $.05

 

[keithbyrd]

THis whole thing can be confusing to people - I like the idea of Custom Pens - each one to me is customized - shape, body materials, finial mods etc. Many shows (I just tried to apply in 4) will not let you in if you use parts from kits! I think getting away from the word kits is good but many venues we try to sell in uses or abuses it.

 

[PenMan1]

In the automotive world, including cars, trucks, motorcycles and boats, a "kit" automobile is perceived as much less valuable because it was built from a bag or box of "kit" parts. In fact, in our State, a "kit" car must go through rigorous testing and inspection before it can be licensed for the highway. About 3 in 10 "kit" automobiles make it through this process.

Even lower in the automotive world, is the "kitless" vehicle. Those who make the decisions on highway safety regard a "kitless" vehicle as one that is home made and doesn't use the box of "kit" parts that must comply with highway safety standards before they can be sold to "kit" car builders. Less than 1 in ten of these vehicles is ever cleared for highway use. Many potential buyers of these cool creations are hesitant of purchasing such a vehicle, simply because replacement of a part may require expensive custom fabrication.

On the other side of this equation, are the custom builders. Jessie James and OCC come immediately to mind in the motorcycle world, as does Summerset in custom Yachts. These builders get the very top market prices because they use industry standard parts and tooling, and comply with all highway safety standards.

IMHO, OCC builds "kit" bikes, yet they command a premium price simply because their audience views them as custom builders.

Perhaps what you call your creation, as well as the standards used does affect/effect its perceived value in the market place.

 

[Daniel]

Good discussion, and one I consider well worth debating. I have used Custom, Hand made, and Hand Crafted when presenting my pens to customers. Never Kit, or Kitless
I don't even like the term Kit when talking shop on this group. I may buy a Kit to make a pen but after that the term Kit is lost.

I also like the detail of thought this issue is being given. Pen making, penturing has come a long way in the last 10 years as far as it's reputation among other crafts people. Many of the styles have become recognizable by the general public as well. To have something that stands out is something worth presenting with a lot of thought and care.

I have always like Custom but my ears are up as to soem of the other suggestions. Bottom line. Kitless has got to go even among those talking shop. I agree it served a purpose as it focused many to move away from the ready made components and the sheet of instructions on how to make a pen. But many are no longer kit building or even just pen turning. they are now into what I have always considered pen making.
I considered the 50 cal pen the first pen I truly "Made" now some suppliers offer a very poor representation of that in kit form. So be it that is life. I just hope many penturners eventually move away from that offering and attempt to make one from scratch. It is not about suppliers selling kits to me. it is about members of this group stretching themselves. And that effort deserves a distinguishing and respectable title.

 

[wood-of-1kind]

Very good discussions in this thread. However, I do sense that some of "us" get a little bit too "defensive" and "insecure" as we approach our target (customer) and somehow try to convey and receive acknowledgement from the work that we offer. Yes, we make pens and fine writing instruments but let's not get too full of ourselves and get overly sensitive to words and categories such as "kits", "component less kits", "customs" and any other deriviatives.

When all is said and done, we make pens that most are very happy to receive or to purchase from us. Let's keep on keepin' on...

 

[Timebandit]

But then what will call the new "Kitless " Kits that everyone is after these days. Seems everyone and there dog wants a "Kitless" kit, which to me is an oxymoron First the word Kitless shouldnt be used, then turning Kitless into a kit....seems to be going backwards not forwards to me. I stopped using the word after my second one i think. Mine are just pens. They all use some sort of components.

 

[IPD_Mr]

Artisan crafted hand art.

Seriously it is a pen. Do you see major manufacturers using anything other than the design name? I can see the Pen World ad now:

Omas A Kitless Wonder

 

[Carl Fisher]

I see the term "kitless" as used only within our community of turners. I don't think I would ever say kitless to a customer or even state that the others are from kits of any sorts.

As far as customers are concerned, these are ALL hand crafted pens/pencils/stylus/whatever

 

[mpmopc]

I have been referred to a pen maker, like a clock maker. I guess what it boils down to is I make pens, create pens, create fine writing pens.
Phil

 

[BRobbins629]

Within the forum I actually think kit, modified kit and kitless are very appropriate descriptors. When used, I know exactly what you are saying. To think that this group could ever agree to using another common terminology is absurd. That being said, whether I use a kit or not, I try to come up with a unique descriptive name for each pen I make. So to answer you original question, I don't think kitless has outlived its usefulness any more than kit has.

 

[IPD_Mr]

But then what will call the new "Kitless " Kits that everyone is after these days. Seems everyone and there dog wants a "Kitless" kit, which to me is an oxymoron

They are not asking for a kitless kit, they are asking for a kitless tool kit for beginners. Big difference and quite a reaonable request for someone wanting to learn and venture towards this side of the craft.

 

[jd99]

How about craftsman's pens.

I am a craftsman, I can take raw material like steel and produce a precisley machined working tool, I can take wood and make a peice of fine furniture, I can make just about anything I need from what ever material I choose.

If I make a pen is it not a "Craftsman's Pen"?

 

[Timebandit]

But then what will call the new "Kitless " Kits that everyone is after these days. Seems everyone and there dog wants a "Kitless" kit, which to me is an oxymoron

They are not asking for a kitless kit, they are asking for a kitless tool kit for beginners. Big difference and quite a reaonable request for someone wanting to learn and venture towards this side of the craft.

I understand what people want and please dont start an argument over it. It is a reasonable request but still an oxymoron. And it was really a joke as to what they will now be called if "kitless" is removed. Thats what the rolled eyes little guy was for, to show sarcasm.

Edit: And just to add, others were wanting more than just a tool kit, they wanted feed and clips and things, so this is beyond a tool kit. Not that it would have happened that way, but many were pushing for something like that.

 

[dow]

The word "component" is defined as "a constituent part; element; ingredient."

I make pens. I make them out of components. Some components are made by others and I purchase those components ready-to-use for my pens. Some components are made by me from raw materials. So it seems to me that it's as much a misnomer to call them "component-less" as it is to call them "kitless." I make pens. I sell pens. I believe that I will call them "pens."

 

[nativewooder]

Good discussion! Nice to see everyone able to discuss and not scream and throw things!:biggrin:

 

[dow]

Good discussion! Nice to see everyone able to discuss and not scream and throw things!:biggrin:

It's early yet. :biggrin:

 

[Andrew_K99]

Good discussion.

For me, the word 'kit' implies that there are going to be instructions to follow and if 10 people sat down and made one they'd all be relatively similar in final appearance.

For me, the word 'kitless' suggests that instructions don't exist and the final product is determined by builder.

For the purpose of the IAP I think both are relevant and accurately describes the process of making these pens.

In talking to a customer I would never use either kit or kitless to describe a pen. First kit makes it sound like anyone can do it and kitless, well, it just doesn't sound professional IMO.

AK

 

[Displaced Canadian]

Good discussion! Nice to see everyone able to discuss and not scream and throw things!:biggrin:

Oh really. I just sent a bag of dog doo doo to you and gave the UPS driver very specific instructions on what to do with it when you answer the door.

 

[jd99]

Good discussion! Nice to see everyone able to discuss and not scream and throw things!:biggrin:

It's early yet. :biggrin:

Yep I just went an got my helmet, just in case...... LOL :biggrin:

 

[bitshird]

George once again you show a degree of wisdom! I too agree with you.

 

[Texatdurango]

Good discussion! Nice to see everyone able to discuss and not scream and throw things!:biggrin:

Oh really. I just sent a bag of dog doo doo to you and gave the UPS driver very specific instructions on what to do with it when you answer the door.

We'll see what happens........ My cousin works for UPS and I got him to track your order and RETURN TO SENDER with instructions for the driver to sit it on the doorstep and light with match! :biggrin:

 

[Texatdurango]

From now on when showing a pen, I intend to just say..... "Here's a nice pen!" or "Here's one of my most magnificent creations that will surely make your jaws drop".... whichever is appropriate! :wink:

 

[mredburn]

I kind of like "a simple Pen" myself