Don Wade
Member
Why not use gun metal instead of blk ti with the cost differential?
Don
Don
Gun metal vs. blk. ti.
- Thread starter Don Wade
- Start date
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
alphageek
Former Moderator
Black TI is much harder and thus should have a much better long term wear.
same reason for gold Ti vs other gold
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
Has anyone actually experienced gun metal wearing noticeably?
Russianwolf
Member
I'll let you know as I just ordered 4 of the Vertex Fountains in GM, and 4 in Chrome. I'll be making one as a tester for my use for a while.
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
Mike,
I've carried SEVERAL gun metal pens, but I don't use just one pen, so I'm probably not going to "wear out" the plating. I just wonder if anyone actually HAS worn it out.
Then, my next question will be: Whose pen was it? Rizheng, Dayacom, Berea or unknown (CSUSA could be China or Dayacom). It's time we stopped generalizing and look at specific pen sources and their strengths and weaknesses. I believe one vendor has better quality than the next---but we all call the pen a "sierra" so the confusion continues.
I've carried SEVERAL gun metal pens, but I don't use just one pen, so I'm probably not going to "wear out" the plating. I just wonder if anyone actually HAS worn it out.
Then, my next question will be: Whose pen was it? Rizheng, Dayacom, Berea or unknown (CSUSA could be China or Dayacom). It's time we stopped generalizing and look at specific pen sources and their strengths and weaknesses. I believe one vendor has better quality than the next---but we all call the pen a "sierra" so the confusion continues.
alphageek
Former Moderator
I have seen wear on gun metal... and it was significant wear.... But it was a while ago (2 years) and on a slimline (PSI - but I don't know the 'source' beyond that)... and I don't know if it was a fluke... Because of that after a while, I only used Chrome or the better platings( Platinum or Ti) in slimlines.
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
Thanks Dean, and thanks for drawing that distinction.
PSI offers the "funline" and their regular line. I have never used their gunmetal, but I sold hundreds of their TiGold slims, with the TN on the clip. Never had one come back. Only thing I had against them was the TN.
Just checked their website and, interestingly, they offer gun metal in their FunLine AND in their regular line. Suppose these are EQUAL in quality? If yes, why the price difference?
If not, shouldn't they have different names?
But if they are NOT equal in quality, and they are both called "gun Metal", how can we deduce whether gun metal is good, or not?
See the problem?
PSI offers the "funline" and their regular line. I have never used their gunmetal, but I sold hundreds of their TiGold slims, with the TN on the clip. Never had one come back. Only thing I had against them was the TN.
Just checked their website and, interestingly, they offer gun metal in their FunLine AND in their regular line. Suppose these are EQUAL in quality? If yes, why the price difference?
If not, shouldn't they have different names?
But if they are NOT equal in quality, and they are both called "gun Metal", how can we deduce whether gun metal is good, or not?
See the problem?
Last edited:
jttheclockman
Member
Yes and I had to give the pens away. Now this was some time ago so maybe they have done some new formulas and it is better but I would never trust it again. My opinion
Hey Dean types faster too.
Last edited:
omb76
Member
I have thought the same thing about their chrome comfort grip. They are only offered in the funline not regular line. I always assumed chrome was very durable so I'm confused as to why they won't guarantee it. Made me wonder if the components are of a lesser quality, but not sure how that would be...
alphageek
Former Moderator
You sure?? I just went and looked at the slims and comforts... (so unless you were looking at something else?) Gun metal is in their fun line.... Black TI is in their normal line - I don't see 2 gun metal?
The interesting thing is I remember when they came out with the "fun line" and I've never ordered a fun line kit, so I know this tells me when I had mine from.
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
Search term "Gun Metal" Dean--two words--25ish results.
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
http://woodturning.pennstateind.com/gun-metal
They call the one a "Trimline" and there are several cigars and other "prestige" pens in gun metal. Then there are the "Funline" too.
They call the one a "Trimline" and there are several cigars and other "prestige" pens in gun metal. Then there are the "Funline" too.
alphageek
Former Moderator
I see now... Marketing 101 - whatever you do don't be logical? (sorry - I'm an engineer at heart!)
Yep... clear as mud... I would have to say the ones that I have seen an issue are what is probably now the funline slim and comfort. However, I don't know what that means anymore and my past issues are no guarantee at all of current quality for any brand.
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
Dean, if it makes you feel any better, that was my third, and only successful, search term used.
Changed offerings
PSI has been making some changes in the finishes they offer. They have stopped offering Chrome in some of their lines where they used to have it and they have picked up Platinum. They have dropped Gun Metal in some lines and seem to have replaced it with Black Ti. In addition they are offering Titanium Nitride in some lines where they didn't have it before.
So what they offered a couple of years ago might not make a good comparison to today. Gun Metal and Black Ti have a very similar look. I think some of the big houses are moving toward the black ti but might hold GM in the low end kits.
For what it's worth I've been selling low end kits for a few years now and have yet to have my first customer complaint about premature wear. Two of the four favored finishes by my customers are 24kt Gold and GM.
PSI has been making some changes in the finishes they offer. They have stopped offering Chrome in some of their lines where they used to have it and they have picked up Platinum. They have dropped Gun Metal in some lines and seem to have replaced it with Black Ti. In addition they are offering Titanium Nitride in some lines where they didn't have it before.
So what they offered a couple of years ago might not make a good comparison to today. Gun Metal and Black Ti have a very similar look. I think some of the big houses are moving toward the black ti but might hold GM in the low end kits.
For what it's worth I've been selling low end kits for a few years now and have yet to have my first customer complaint about premature wear. Two of the four favored finishes by my customers are 24kt Gold and GM.
Trimline
Trimline is a 7mm you have seen elsewhere called Streamline and it is priced about like their slimlines-- it is also one that they still offer in Chrome - go figure. I think it is a take-off on the comfort without the grip.
Trimline is a 7mm you have seen elsewhere called Streamline and it is priced about like their slimlines-- it is also one that they still offer in Chrome - go figure. I think it is a take-off on the comfort without the grip.
China
Their regular line used to be from Taiwan and a I think most if not all of them still are. Their funline have always been made in China - that was the difference in price.
My take on Chrome
Platinum is about as shiny as silver and as durable as chrome, I think some folks are starting to pickup platinum and will move to dropping both silver and chrome....one less item to inventory. I am giving that some thought myself right now - problem is in the cost of platinum, much higher than chrome or silver.
Platinum is about as shiny as silver and as durable as chrome, I think some folks are starting to pickup platinum and will move to dropping both silver and chrome....one less item to inventory. I am giving that some thought myself right now - problem is in the cost of platinum, much higher than chrome or silver.
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
What is the problem with Chrome? I've always thought is was a great pen material.
I don't
Don't let your source see you say that, they are mighty sensitive about that - I call mine G Series (Gold or Gold Tn with gun metal grips and finial) and Le Roi Gold Tn with Black Tn grips and finial. Hard to tell the difference by just looking.
Don't let your source see you say that, they are mighty sensitive about that - I call mine G Series (Gold or Gold Tn with gun metal grips and finial) and Le Roi Gold Tn with Black Tn grips and finial. Hard to tell the difference by just looking.
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
Yes, I understand Berea is trying to "reclaim" their names. Would certainly remove some of the stigma brought on by the imitations that have used "Sierra" and "Cambridge" and "Ultra", etc.
None that I see
Personally I don't see any, I've read a couple of articles that imply that platinum wears better but I don't see anything in the numbers to say that.
Personally I don't see any, I've read a couple of articles that imply that platinum wears better but I don't see anything in the numbers to say that.
Trade Mark
They need someone to send them the address of the trade mark registration office.
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
From what I have heard, they have retained professional help to "handle" that. When in doubt, retain an expert.
Yes, they were CUSA kits from a couple years ago, the newer stuff seems to be better so probably a change in formula.
vallealbert
Member
I do not remember where I read it, but apparently Gun Metal is Chrome with a treatment to turn it dark....is it correct??? I have read a lot about the durability of Chrome....why Gun Metal (if Chrome) do not have the same durability????
arioux
Member
Gunmetal and black chrome are two different plating
Wildman
Member
Several years back was getting Berea chrome Cigar pens from WoodturningZ think paid $2.95 per kit. Ordered some platinum Cigars from Berea on sale for $5.00 per kit. When laid side by side I cannot tell the difference between chrome and platinum.
I made some gunmetal civil war pens and like that plating a lot. I like black TI too!
I made some gunmetal civil war pens and like that plating a lot. I like black TI too!
vallealbert
Member
Thanks Alfred for the info...
ren-lathe
Member
funline vs the rest
The major difference between the so called funline (cheap low quality) & the others is the way they are plated. The better pens are rack plated this done by putting the individual parts on large racks. These racks are insulated except where the part contacts the rack & the hooks that the rack hangs from. The rack is lowered into the plating solutions and hung from copper bars that are positively charged there are two other bars on the sides of tank that have a negative charge. The solution that has the metal dissolved in it is conductive. The cheap ones are barrel plated. They dump the parts into a barrel that has electrodes inside, it is lowered into the solution and rotated. the same reaction takes place but the current is less & the electrical reaction is not constant hence lower amount of metal sticking to the parts. but it is much cheaper since you do not have to pay someone to rack & unrack the parts
The major difference between the so called funline (cheap low quality) & the others is the way they are plated. The better pens are rack plated this done by putting the individual parts on large racks. These racks are insulated except where the part contacts the rack & the hooks that the rack hangs from. The rack is lowered into the plating solutions and hung from copper bars that are positively charged there are two other bars on the sides of tank that have a negative charge. The solution that has the metal dissolved in it is conductive. The cheap ones are barrel plated. They dump the parts into a barrel that has electrodes inside, it is lowered into the solution and rotated. the same reaction takes place but the current is less & the electrical reaction is not constant hence lower amount of metal sticking to the parts. but it is much cheaper since you do not have to pay someone to rack & unrack the parts
Not chrome
Gun metal is not a chrome based finish. It is a "black" nickel plating designed to imitate Black Ti.
Gun metal is not a chrome based finish. It is a "black" nickel plating designed to imitate Black Ti.
Not necessarily
Funline is not a good name to use - funline is a PSI trademark for a specific line of slimline kits. The plating being discussed involve much more than just slimline kits
Rack plating in MUCH more expensive an as near as I can find out only the truly high end kits are rack plated because every piece must be attached individually to the rack in such a way that the attachment spot is hidden because leaves a tiny spot that is not plated (where it was attached) so you should be able to tell if a kit is rack plated.
Tumble plating can provide perfectly good plating if the thickness of the plating (a function of time and solution) is controlled.
The lower end kits will have a thinner coating than the more expensive also - for instance silver is usually no more than 5 microns, where sterling silver is as much as 4 times thicker. That is the reason they will wear faster - much more than the method of applying the plating from what I've read.
Funline is not a good name to use - funline is a PSI trademark for a specific line of slimline kits. The plating being discussed involve much more than just slimline kits
Rack plating in MUCH more expensive an as near as I can find out only the truly high end kits are rack plated because every piece must be attached individually to the rack in such a way that the attachment spot is hidden because leaves a tiny spot that is not plated (where it was attached) so you should be able to tell if a kit is rack plated.
Tumble plating can provide perfectly good plating if the thickness of the plating (a function of time and solution) is controlled.
The lower end kits will have a thinner coating than the more expensive also - for instance silver is usually no more than 5 microns, where sterling silver is as much as 4 times thicker. That is the reason they will wear faster - much more than the method of applying the plating from what I've read.
Last edited:
PenPal
Member
A most interesting ramble about platings, predudices of sourcing, hints at greater inside performances. When I was young one slogan used was if you cant afford a Dodge dodge a Ford. Not sure if this ever affected Ford Sales.
In purchases of health products the American and Australian Govt Authorities only give the nod of approval to the products that pass stringent tests of provan viability.
In Pen Making I am in awe of the people who can make a brass sleeve as accurately as they do consistantly producing pen kits for the real pricing ie Wholesale that they do.
Now because we as users feel we want outstanding product for less and less all of the makers over the world are faced with this dilemma. So they in their wisdom produce a product for all to consume at prices from and to satifying the present market.
Personally we could give vailed expression of the good and evil on all products however also to my knowledge no one person on OUR Forum has an exact knowledge of the finite detail necessary to make a definitive statement that will hold up in court of all the pen kits being manufactured and sold. A bit like asking Coca Cola their formula or as Rolls Royce when questioned about true HPower were known to reply adequate.
It is a nonsense to interpret from predudice ie shape , size, colour, durability etc without truly knowing the finite facts. These include the methods of use, how they are treated, used in a building site environment etc. My own experience in the family where my son uses his as he works on large industrial sites,drops from his pocket several floors to concrete below, my mates wife the other day her pen slipped from her purse in the car park then run over.
In this litigeous society and age at the minimal prices charged for Pen Kits no manufacturer
is prepared to guarantee plating etc with a lifetime guarantee. If you read the fine print on products any lifetime guarantee is suspect.
So we the users are led by the sellers who are led by the wholesalers and makers to believe their products are the one and only or the best because...................................
I have deep respect for the dealers on the forum they are damned if they do or damned if they dont but courage and empathy or bias has to become evident at some time or another
our privilige is to pay our money to whom we choose and hold just as strong feelings as they do on any subject and discuss it freely.
We in Australia have a buy Australian program, you read on the forum Buy American and I do, my Mum said son try to pay cash and you can hold your head up and shop where you choose. Naturally the balance in all countries of home product, costs vary we all seek higher wages, conditions etc.
In the meantime we get what we pay for and look for the best value perceived for our money, try to give courtesy to everyone thank you for the providers of Pen Making be they
hardware, timber or artificial materials such as carefully constructed blanks, the inventors of new methods,the people who commit to the library articles, the strong volunteers and to the owners of this forum.
Kind regards Peter.
In purchases of health products the American and Australian Govt Authorities only give the nod of approval to the products that pass stringent tests of provan viability.
In Pen Making I am in awe of the people who can make a brass sleeve as accurately as they do consistantly producing pen kits for the real pricing ie Wholesale that they do.
Now because we as users feel we want outstanding product for less and less all of the makers over the world are faced with this dilemma. So they in their wisdom produce a product for all to consume at prices from and to satifying the present market.
Personally we could give vailed expression of the good and evil on all products however also to my knowledge no one person on OUR Forum has an exact knowledge of the finite detail necessary to make a definitive statement that will hold up in court of all the pen kits being manufactured and sold. A bit like asking Coca Cola their formula or as Rolls Royce when questioned about true HPower were known to reply adequate.
It is a nonsense to interpret from predudice ie shape , size, colour, durability etc without truly knowing the finite facts. These include the methods of use, how they are treated, used in a building site environment etc. My own experience in the family where my son uses his as he works on large industrial sites,drops from his pocket several floors to concrete below, my mates wife the other day her pen slipped from her purse in the car park then run over.
In this litigeous society and age at the minimal prices charged for Pen Kits no manufacturer
is prepared to guarantee plating etc with a lifetime guarantee. If you read the fine print on products any lifetime guarantee is suspect.
So we the users are led by the sellers who are led by the wholesalers and makers to believe their products are the one and only or the best because...................................
I have deep respect for the dealers on the forum they are damned if they do or damned if they dont but courage and empathy or bias has to become evident at some time or another
our privilige is to pay our money to whom we choose and hold just as strong feelings as they do on any subject and discuss it freely.
We in Australia have a buy Australian program, you read on the forum Buy American and I do, my Mum said son try to pay cash and you can hold your head up and shop where you choose. Naturally the balance in all countries of home product, costs vary we all seek higher wages, conditions etc.
In the meantime we get what we pay for and look for the best value perceived for our money, try to give courtesy to everyone thank you for the providers of Pen Making be they
hardware, timber or artificial materials such as carefully constructed blanks, the inventors of new methods,the people who commit to the library articles, the strong volunteers and to the owners of this forum.
Kind regards Peter.
Last edited:
vallealbert
Member
Thanks Smitty....
tool-man
Member
I have a friend who is a salesperson and uses pens quite heavily in a variety of environments. So I give away a few and get some feedback. To give you an idea of usage a Parker style gel refill lasts her about a month.
I have seen the beginnings of wear on her pens with regular gold, gunmetal and chrome fittings in time frames of 3-6 months. But I can not tell you which source supplied them as I use several.
JerrySambrook
Member
Sorry Smitty "Gun metal is not a chrome based finish. It is a "black" nickel plating designed to imitate Black Ti."
Gun Metal or gunmetal is an alloy of 88 percent copper, 10 percent tin, and 2 percent zinc. In some cases, the zinc is replaced with lead. In other cases there is lead added with the zinc as well.
If it was a nickel-based alloy, then it would have very good wear characteristics.
Sorry
Gun Metal or gunmetal is an alloy of 88 percent copper, 10 percent tin, and 2 percent zinc. In some cases, the zinc is replaced with lead. In other cases there is lead added with the zinc as well.
If it was a nickel-based alloy, then it would have very good wear characteristics.
Sorry
Last edited:
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
Help, Jerry!
I know copper is used as a base plating because it is very conductive. But how can a "GunMetal", which appears dark, have 88% of it's material RED?? Or is copper NOT red, in it's native state?
I know copper is used as a base plating because it is very conductive. But how can a "GunMetal", which appears dark, have 88% of it's material RED?? Or is copper NOT red, in it's native state?
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
Black Nickel
The formula you are showing there looks more like bronze to me than anything else .... the traditional formula for bronze that I was taught in high school is 90% copper 10% tin but the formula can vary widely - I don't see why they would call the formula you list gun metal rather than bronze.
Hi Jerry, I won't dispute what you say and I don't pretend to be a plating expert. I found a source that said gunmetal or gun metal on pens is a "black nickel" plating (I had the quotes wrong in the first post) and about the same wear characteristics and some of the softer metals. I Googled "black nickel" - and they seem to be saying it is a nickel/zinc plating that has much worse wear characteristics than nickel.
The formula you are showing there looks more like bronze to me than anything else .... the traditional formula for bronze that I was taught in high school is 90% copper 10% tin but the formula can vary widely - I don't see why they would call the formula you list gun metal rather than bronze.
Last edited: