DKF
Member
Is Blackwood less brittle than Ebony? In my estimation, it looks very close and every bit as nice.
Blackwood vs. Ebony
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Rifleman1776
Member
The ebony you buy today is pretty fresh cut. It is waxed and shipped about as quick as the tree hits the ground. Meaning it is very prone to cracking, as experiences related here show. I learned this when I negotiated to buy a pallet of it from South Africa a few years ago. African Blackwood, on the other hand, is not as rare and (apparently) is stored for a period of time before getting shipped. I enjoy turning the ABW and like the color. Nice wood IMHO, and less expensive than ebony.
leehljp
Member Liaison
I have some ebony that I have had for a little over 2 years that has never cracked in its normal state. But drill a hole in it and glue it up - and it cracks. There have beem many discussions here on this but is my opinion that the wood moves and when glued with hard glue that does not move, and on a brass tubing, it cracks. It has been on my mine to try gluing some ebony in a pen blank with rubber epoxy and see how that does - probably do that sometime this summer or fall, and then see if it cracks.
Dario
Member
Hank,
Is it possible that the cracking is due to the heat generated during drilling?
Is it possible that the cracking is due to the heat generated during drilling?
leehljp
Member Liaison
Dario,
I personally don't think so. I have drilled several, very slowly, same as I do snakewood. I had one snakewood and one ebony that sat for several months after being drilled that never cracked. But after I glued the tubes in and waited a week to finish them - they did well for a few weeks, then cracks appeared.
I am WELL aquainted with wood movement and cracking in flat work. Except for marquetery and veneering (which uses thin wood), gluing wood in which the grains are going to move two different directions, you will have cracking! Period! Pen blanks move in multi directions, and gluing them on a tube prevent the movement. Breadboard ends on tables are made the way they are so that the wood can move.
I have seen numerous discussions on this forum about wood movement but none that deal with the multitude of wood movement directions on the pen blank, on a metal tube, with humidity and heat. It is not the drill that causes so much problem, but the front to back, side to side, inside to outside and end to end natural <b>movement</b> of the wood, and being a <b>brittle wood</b> that is locked down by non moving glue on a non moving tube, -cracks will happen!
Breadboard ends on tables move as much 3/8 inch over a season (contracting and expanding that much). They are glued at one point - in the center to allow for the movement outward to the ends. If not glued or attached only in the center, it WILL crack the table. And pen blank don't just move in one direction. They move in 360 circle as well as linear, but are glued down to prevent this. Being brittle, it will happen.
The reason that we don't see more of this cracking in pens is because as long as <b>most</b> woods are no more than 1/4 inch thick, gluing will do exactly as in plywood or veneers. Most Pen turners don't even think on this subject. They glue to hold the blank to the tube without giving a thought to the movement question. Most of the time, we don't have to think in these terms, but for brittle wood . . . that is another ball game.
All of this is why I am thinking about the rubber epoxy route. I looked up rubber epoxy on Google and could not find it in the US (only rubber added as a filler to epoxy). We do have rubber epoxy in Japan that cures kind of an off white color and is stiff but flexible. I have used it on other things where minute' movement was necessary. Manny has rubber CA in black. I have it but have not tried it.
I personally don't think so. I have drilled several, very slowly, same as I do snakewood. I had one snakewood and one ebony that sat for several months after being drilled that never cracked. But after I glued the tubes in and waited a week to finish them - they did well for a few weeks, then cracks appeared.
I am WELL aquainted with wood movement and cracking in flat work. Except for marquetery and veneering (which uses thin wood), gluing wood in which the grains are going to move two different directions, you will have cracking! Period! Pen blanks move in multi directions, and gluing them on a tube prevent the movement. Breadboard ends on tables are made the way they are so that the wood can move.
I have seen numerous discussions on this forum about wood movement but none that deal with the multitude of wood movement directions on the pen blank, on a metal tube, with humidity and heat. It is not the drill that causes so much problem, but the front to back, side to side, inside to outside and end to end natural <b>movement</b> of the wood, and being a <b>brittle wood</b> that is locked down by non moving glue on a non moving tube, -cracks will happen!
Breadboard ends on tables move as much 3/8 inch over a season (contracting and expanding that much). They are glued at one point - in the center to allow for the movement outward to the ends. If not glued or attached only in the center, it WILL crack the table. And pen blank don't just move in one direction. They move in 360 circle as well as linear, but are glued down to prevent this. Being brittle, it will happen.
The reason that we don't see more of this cracking in pens is because as long as <b>most</b> woods are no more than 1/4 inch thick, gluing will do exactly as in plywood or veneers. Most Pen turners don't even think on this subject. They glue to hold the blank to the tube without giving a thought to the movement question. Most of the time, we don't have to think in these terms, but for brittle wood . . . that is another ball game.
All of this is why I am thinking about the rubber epoxy route. I looked up rubber epoxy on Google and could not find it in the US (only rubber added as a filler to epoxy). We do have rubber epoxy in Japan that cures kind of an off white color and is stiff but flexible. I have used it on other things where minute' movement was necessary. Manny has rubber CA in black. I have it but have not tried it.
Pipes
Member
I have 2 Ebony pens in use now with customers and so far so good one is a year or more old and the other is a few weeks ! I am always concerned about it . so far thou so good .
PenPal
Member
Blackwood and Ebony.
A friend in Sydney is from Kenya originally and used to trade in Ebony there,the best comes from Tanzania.He went for a holiday 18mths ago and brought back an Ebony walking stick for me,the idea was for me to use it for pens,anyway it turned out to be carved from one huge piece of Ebony ,the handle is D shaped with an elephant centre hand grip with a Gazelle carved on the D shaped sides,it is a crafted delight so it will remain in one piece.I am of that age it could come in handy sooner rather than later.
A lot of African Blackwood brought in but as stated before can be greenish not dry and often heavily stained with black boot polish.The best Ebony I have came from musical instrument people,they will not put up with bad quality.
I have not had after splitting using two part epoxy glue and will try the flexible glue suggested.There is something magical in a crafted Ebony Pen. I use Corian successfully to take the place of Ivory related product,often it comes thicker than coloured Corian and looks stunning. Peter
A friend in Sydney is from Kenya originally and used to trade in Ebony there,the best comes from Tanzania.He went for a holiday 18mths ago and brought back an Ebony walking stick for me,the idea was for me to use it for pens,anyway it turned out to be carved from one huge piece of Ebony ,the handle is D shaped with an elephant centre hand grip with a Gazelle carved on the D shaped sides,it is a crafted delight so it will remain in one piece.I am of that age it could come in handy sooner rather than later.
A lot of African Blackwood brought in but as stated before can be greenish not dry and often heavily stained with black boot polish.The best Ebony I have came from musical instrument people,they will not put up with bad quality.
I have not had after splitting using two part epoxy glue and will try the flexible glue suggested.There is something magical in a crafted Ebony Pen. I use Corian successfully to take the place of Ivory related product,often it comes thicker than coloured Corian and looks stunning. Peter
Rifleman1776
Member
Hank's reasoning is indisputable. But, I'm certain that many of the problems we hear about with ebony come from the fact what we buy today is fresh cut. At one time ebony was used for a multiple of purposes from billiard balls to musical instruments and decorative items. One can still find antiques made from ebony that hasn't cracked. OTOH, Hank has given us something new to think about and his idea for using 'rubber epoxy' is intriguing.
Ron in Drums PA
Member
It wasn't to long ago that Blackwood was considered an ebony. Allot of "ebony" woodwind instruments that where made in the past are really Blackwood. The same goes for billiard balls.
Ebony is so dense that the center of a 4/4 board never really dries. Buy some ebony that is 2" thick and the center will never dry. Another problem is you can not kiln dry ebony that is over a 1/4", it will just crack.
Hank has the right idea, pre-drill your ebony blanks and let them sit for several months before gluing in the tubes and use a flexible glue
Ebony is so dense that the center of a 4/4 board never really dries. Buy some ebony that is 2" thick and the center will never dry. Another problem is you can not kiln dry ebony that is over a 1/4", it will just crack.
Hank has the right idea, pre-drill your ebony blanks and let them sit for several months before gluing in the tubes and use a flexible glue
mdburn_em
Member
I appreciate this discussion. I've learned a lot today, just on this thread. I did have one question. Dario asked if the heat from drilling could have caused the cracking and the answer appears to be no.
What about heat from CA curing?
I had some cure on my finger once that raised a blister. That was HOT.[:0]
What about heat from CA curing?
I had some cure on my finger once that raised a blister. That was HOT.[:0]
DKF
Member
As well, thank you all for the replies to this topic.....It seems as though the cracking issue with Ebony is somewhat "gray area"[
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Ron in Drums PA
Member
If you treat ebony like you would treat any wood that is green a lot of your problems will go away.
Bozz
Member
I find this topic very compelling and challenging. Usually the most elegant solution to a problem is the “simple solutionâ€. This may be the case here. Perhaps using a silicone or latex adhesive, such as, caulking, which can be purchased at any of the big box stores, would be the “simple solutionâ€. For the low cost, this certainly would be worth trying, without putting out a large amount of ca$h. These types of adhesives are certainly ‘flexible’.
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IAP is a great place!
Bozz, in Fair Oaks, California
IAP is a great place!
Bozz, in Fair Oaks, California
leehljp
Member Liaison
Bozz,
That is a good idea.
Ron, I agree with you on the treatment of ebony like green wood. I hadn't worked with ebony until I started with pens. Frank really made me think about the black/ebony wood of billiard balls and musical instruments. Just what DO they do to keep those from cracking?
That is a good idea.
Ron, I agree with you on the treatment of ebony like green wood. I hadn't worked with ebony until I started with pens. Frank really made me think about the black/ebony wood of billiard balls and musical instruments. Just what DO they do to keep those from cracking?
Ron in Drums PA
Member
Hank, they use blackwood instead.
Blackwood has better tonal qualities than ebony.
Read my earlier post in the thread
One of the problems is that the "trade names" for various species have changed with the availability of the trees and the needs of the growing woodworkers market for more wood. Other species with similar characteristics are being substituted to meet the market demands. Any given trade name becomes a mixed bag with nobody really know what they are getting. Therein lies a problem with using these "trade names".
It wasn't that long ago that the wood now being sold as "African Blackwood" was called "Ebony", and the stuff now sold as "Ebony" was called "Gabon Blackwood", and it was a plentiful trash wood that was used for shipping dunnage because of its weight, and high resistance to compression. It was not used for anything else because it was too unstable, difficult to dry, and cracked easilly with the least cross-grain tensile stress.
I still think of Blackwood as being Ebony, and that confuses people and makes them wonder if I know what I am talking about most of the time.
Another problem with all of these species is that the old-growth trees are gone. They are being replaced by younger trees with very little if any heartwood, and with very different characteristics.
Padauk and Vermillion are a similar story. The old Vermillion was a wonderful wood with a delicate lace-like figuring with a satin appearance that was stable and cut easilly, and had a delightful but very strong odor of Vanilla that would drive you out of the shop when it was cut. Compare that to the brashy, grainy, unstable wood, and almost scentless wood that is sold today. The only thing they share with a true Padauk, is the color. I have no idea what it is, or if it just a younger faster growing plantation tree, but it sure isn't what I remember as Pterocarpus soyauxii . The real stuff is still available, but you have to know what you are looking for to find it. The problem is that most of it isn't.
It wasn't that long ago that the wood now being sold as "African Blackwood" was called "Ebony", and the stuff now sold as "Ebony" was called "Gabon Blackwood", and it was a plentiful trash wood that was used for shipping dunnage because of its weight, and high resistance to compression. It was not used for anything else because it was too unstable, difficult to dry, and cracked easilly with the least cross-grain tensile stress.
I still think of Blackwood as being Ebony, and that confuses people and makes them wonder if I know what I am talking about most of the time.
Another problem with all of these species is that the old-growth trees are gone. They are being replaced by younger trees with very little if any heartwood, and with very different characteristics.
Padauk and Vermillion are a similar story. The old Vermillion was a wonderful wood with a delicate lace-like figuring with a satin appearance that was stable and cut easilly, and had a delightful but very strong odor of Vanilla that would drive you out of the shop when it was cut. Compare that to the brashy, grainy, unstable wood, and almost scentless wood that is sold today. The only thing they share with a true Padauk, is the color. I have no idea what it is, or if it just a younger faster growing plantation tree, but it sure isn't what I remember as Pterocarpus soyauxii . The real stuff is still available, but you have to know what you are looking for to find it. The problem is that most of it isn't.
GBusardo
Member
After reading this thread, I have come to my own conclusion. IMVHO, ebony cracks because of wood movement. When wood dries, it moves, just like any other wood, and being a brittle wood, it cracks that much more. So, both Frank and Lee are most probably right, they were just coming from different directions. If ebony were really used as billiard balls, why would they crack? The wood would swell and shrink with humidity, but there would be nothing holding it back. With that same thought, I have had a 2x2x10 piece of blackwood sitting in my shop waiting to be turned into bottle stoppers. Don't you know, after a few months sitting there, I had a very large crack down the middle. Now I had some extra pen blanks [] Don't know why I am posting this, just thinking out loud.
] Don't know why I am posting this, just thinking out loud.Glass Scratcher
Member
The, oboists, and clarinetists that I new back in my music days used to clean, dry, and oil their instruments and then look for cracks. One oboist I knew was on her 3rd oboe...
Ron in Drums PA
Member
Here are some interesting links about Blackwood and Ebony
African Blackwood (Dalbergia melanoxylon)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalbergia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_blackwood
http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/blackwood,%20african.htm
Ebony (Diospyros ebenum)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diospyros
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebony
http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/ebony,%20gaboon.htm
http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/ebony,%20misc.htm
African Blackwood (Dalbergia melanoxylon)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalbergia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_blackwood
http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/blackwood,%20african.htm
Ebony (Diospyros ebenum)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diospyros
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebony
http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/ebony,%20gaboon.htm
http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/ebony,%20misc.htm
Fred
Member
Gary, thinking out loud is good. Anyone else hearing (reading) you begins to share their thoughts and that's what this Forum is all about.
Has anyone ever boiled these woods to try and let the internal stresses become "relaxed"? I have yet to use these woods, but soon will.
I now boil all my newly arrived blanks, both bowls and pens, and then let them re-dry and become accustomed to my area of the world. So far I have had no problems with anything splitting, twisting, etc. Most of the wood is 5.5"x6" in the case of pen blanks, and the bowls are 6"x7" up to 12"x6". BTW, I use the turkey fryer pot from Northern Handiman (Harbor Freight chooses to not carry these items). Propane tank supplies the fuel. Put it together, attach the tank, fill the pot with clean water, light the flame, bring it to a boil, THEN add the wood slowly. Use the top or you will be adding more water in short order! NEVER LET THE POT BOIL DRY!!
I always boil for one hour per inch of thickness of the wood. CHANGE the water if it becomes stained when going to a lighter color of wood as any stain will go into lighter colored woods a bit. []
Has anyone ever boiled these woods to try and let the internal stresses become "relaxed"? I have yet to use these woods, but soon will.
I now boil all my newly arrived blanks, both bowls and pens, and then let them re-dry and become accustomed to my area of the world. So far I have had no problems with anything splitting, twisting, etc. Most of the wood is 5.5"x6" in the case of pen blanks, and the bowls are 6"x7" up to 12"x6". BTW, I use the turkey fryer pot from Northern Handiman (Harbor Freight chooses to not carry these items). Propane tank supplies the fuel. Put it together, attach the tank, fill the pot with clean water, light the flame, bring it to a boil, THEN add the wood slowly. Use the top or you will be adding more water in short order! NEVER LET THE POT BOIL DRY!!
I always boil for one hour per inch of thickness of the wood. CHANGE the water if it becomes stained when going to a lighter color of wood as any stain will go into lighter colored woods a bit. [
]Fred,
Once a year I go to my parents land in Northern CA and dig up manzanita roots and root burls and I recently was told that after digging them up I needed to boil them. I called my parents and they are getting a 55 gallon drum for me to do this.
Thanks for seconding the opinion!
Once a year I go to my parents land in Northern CA and dig up manzanita roots and root burls and I recently was told that after digging them up I needed to boil them. I called my parents and they are getting a 55 gallon drum for me to do this.
Thanks for seconding the opinion!
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