Polishing Compunds?

[Guest]

I picked up an inexpensive "kit" at Harbot Freight.It includes two "bars" of compound.One reddish brown one white and two wheels that mount on a drill chuck.
I was told the brown was tripoli and the white was white diamond.
Are both of these used in conjunction with each other?
I have used the "brown" one and the shine is unbelieveable.
The white one dulls the finish.
Total cost of the kit was $2.50 and I'm sure it is not intended for pen making but then again I figure that Ca glue wasn't invented for pen finishes either.
Can someone give me a few pointers or instructions as to what the compounds are and what they are used for?

 

[William Young]

Eaglesc;
Sorry, I cannot help you with your question but while we are on the subject of finishing "bars", perhaps someone will kill two birds with one stone and answer both our questions.
While awaiting my new lathe to come , I have ordered some start up supplies that I will need for my fist attempt at pen turning. I ordered one bar of Hut satin and one of Hut high gloss because I was told that in order to get a high gloss finish I had to put the lower gloss on as a base.
I am wondering if this will be a stifactory finish on pens and how long it will actually last before showing wear as opposed to CA finishing.
From what I have read, the CA method looks like the one of choice for many but for me as a beginner, the CA looks a little scary to apply so I chose to go one step at a time and learn how to turn and assemble the pens first and use an easy to apply finish and then go on to experimenting with CA or CA/BLO finishing later.

Still readin' and learnin'......
W.Y..

 

[Guest]

I've only been turnig a couple of months,but I started researching and reading long before I even bought a lathe.
As a matter of fact I experimented with CA finish before I used any other when I did get my first lathe and used CA glue bought at a flea market in little tubes 6/$1.00.
After trying crystal coat and seeing the finish fade away overnight I kept working at CA.
I thought I had it hastered until I tried ebony,cocobolo and aAfrican blackwood on 3 consecutive pens.
I vow before I die I will put a CA finish on an ebony pen!

 

[PopaBear]

Hi Bill and Eagle

Welcome to the craft. I to am afraid of the CA finish option but i was told that if you try it you will need to WAX your mandrel and bushings really well to keep the CA from gluing the whole thing into a new ART object.

I havent been turning pens very long either but have found that the Friction polish like Crystal Coat and Mylands require a little finess to get them to work well. I have made some pens that have the same problem that Eagle described and some that still after several months of use look great.

The big secret I have learned with the friction poilishes is that you need to generate some heat when applying them. I use a coat or 2 of Tung oil and then add on the Mylands or Crystal Coat. Make sure when you put it on that its gets hot on your fingers o you can feel the heat. This is what causes the Shellac to dry and build up. You will also need to apply several coats of the polish to get a solid finish.

I have also heard that a sanding sealer needs to be used before you use these to seal the wood so the polish builds on the outside and not soak into the pores of the wood. I havent tried this as yet but i have some in the shop now so i can try it.

I hope this helps.

Mack

 

[Bev Polmanteer]

Bill, I'm dying to know what lathe you ordered! Any accessories?
[)]

 

[William Young]

Hi Bev;
It is explained in this link.
http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=616
5th post up from the bottom.

Are you the same Bev that is on some scrollsaw forums ? You can email that response if you like instead of going off topic here.
W.Y.

 

[Guest]

Originally posted by William Young
<br />Hi Bev;
It is explained in this link.
http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=616
5th post up from the bottom.

Are you the same Bev that is on some scrollsaw forums ? You can email that response if you like instead of going off topic here.
W.Y.

Are you the same William Young that made all the clocks?
Especially the Dome one?

 

[melogic]

I use the HPP satin and gloss wax sticks on all of my pens and I have had no complaints. I have turned over 300 pens and all of them look great. However, I use the highest speed on my variable speed lathe and a leather glove and it burns the hand if you are not careful. I generally put 3 coats of satin and 3 coats of gloss on each pen, sometimes more. I also sand all of my pens to 600 grit sandpaper and then steel wool before I apply the wax.

 

[William Young]

Eaglesc;
Yep, that is me . The fretwork clock guy, Dome Clock and all as shown in a link to my site at the bottom of my messages.

Melogic;
Thank you so much for that information because I was wondering if I had ordered the wrong thing.
After the 600 grit and then the steel wool before applying the two sticks, do you then continue with MM up to 12000 like some do or is 600 and steel wool as fine as you sand them to.
Some of my questions may seem quite basic but I want to get off to a good start and hearing different peoples ways of doing things gives me a chance to pick and choose what I want to try first but it is always nice to have a plan B or C ?? stashed away somewhere up in the grey matter.
W.Y.

 

[melogic]

William,
I do sometimes use up to 800 grit. I only use up to 12000 grit on acrylics and stuff like that. As a matter of fact, I am on my 2nd set of wax sticks in 300 pens, and I still have more than 1/2 of each stick left.

 

[pecartus]

I going to jump into this, feet first. There are a lot of opinions regarding to what finish looks best. You will see posting on this site and others about the different finishes available. The most popular finish being talked about right now is the CA finish on woods and there are a few varieties of instructions to do a CA finish, so it gets to be a bit confusing. Most Ca finishes I have heard about has been with BLO and I have also heard some using Tung Oil. I have been experimenting with CA finish now for about a month based on a article written by Fred Munday, It very simple to use and apply but there are some cautions to it as well. I belive that article and others like it are posted here. I have not heard any one using CA on plastics yet, but I'm so darn busy that I sometimes get behind on reading the posts here. High gloss polish used with a rubbing compound is the best for the plastics (acyrlic, celluloid, Mica Pearl and other resin based plastics). There is information about dipping wood blanks into a varnish, laquer or poly, and there is alot of support for this method as well. Since I do a lot of flatwork (woodworking), I tend to stay with the most natural products available for finishes. I use 100% pure Tung Oil and Shellac, time consuming yes, but very beautiful and pops the grain very nicely. I have used Hut Crystal Coat and Shellawax products in the past for pens, I don't particular care for either of these due the problems of finish seperation they tend to have while stored. So on pens I have made my own version of the base these two use and maintain the shelf life intgrity of the Shellac. I mix two parts 100% Tung Oil and 5 parts 2lb blonde shellec and apply this mixture to a wood pen blank that has been sanded to 320 Grit, I apply two coats of my mixture, let set for 2 hours (take off lathe and put on a specialholder I made from dowel rods). After two hours I sand to 1000 grit and reapply two more coats of my mixture. The first mixture was used basically to seal the wood, Shellac and tung oil are both natural sanding sealers. After the second application of mixture I go to 12000 MM sanding and reapply two more coats of mixture. After drying overnight I apply two coats of renaissance wax to seal in the finish and buff. works like a champ. This is not a high production method but on special creative pens it is a good, solid finish. This is what I do and I don't want you to think its the best way, it's a finish that I am comfortable with and so far no one has complained. Good luck in your search for the perfect finish, because I still am searching for it as well. []

 

[William Young]

Patrick;
Thanks for that excellent response. I just so happened to get a litre of 100% pure tung oil just a couple days ago for another reason (we wont go there). Your method seems like a good one and I will probably be trying it as well as other methods . I am not familliar with using dewaxed shellac flakes and the only shellac I have ever used years ago was the hardware store pre mixed variety which I presume would not be dewaxed. So if you dont mind, could you please explain how you mix the flakes and ... .. is it denatured alcohol ? ? to arrive at a 2 lb mixture.
W.Y.

 

[pecartus]

Sure, the formula is easy: 3lb Shellac cut is 3 pounds of Shellac dewaxed flakes with 1 gallon of Denatured Alcohol. 2lb Shellac cut is 2 pounds of shellac dewaxed flakes to 1 gal of denatured alcohol. 1lb Shellac cut is 1 pound of Shellac dewaxed flakes to 1 gal of denatured alcohol. I only use the blonde dewaxed shellac flakes. Blonde Shellac flakes is the highest grade of orange shellac. Orange shellac was used by our ancestors and the blonde has been around for a while but produces a clearer finish with out a lot of ambering the orange shellac used to produce. I only mix a pint at a time because the shelf life is extremely short, so break down the formula above to a pint. 16 oz. to a pound and 8 pints to a gallon. So this would be 4 oz. of shellac flakes into 1 pint of denatured alcohol to get a pint of 2lb Shellac cut. Hope this helps, I have also run across a shellac product that is sold that lengthens the shelf life to 3 years and is clear. Zinnser is the manufacturer sometimes goes under the name Bulls Eye.

 

[William Young]

Thanks for that formula . It's a keeper.
Also , I had heard of the Zinnser product but had never followed up on it . So I just finished doing a search on it and here is a link to it
http://www.zinsser.com/product_detail.asp?ProductID=31
I went into the technical section of that site and got as far as it saying it comes in 3 and 4 lb cut but the site was so slow loading on my dialup service that I never did get to the specs about shelf life on it. Maybe someone with high speed service will follow up on that.
They even have it in spray can but it didn't specify any cut on that one.
This might be the easiest way for some of us to try shellac before buying flakes and mixing it.
W.Y.

 

[PopaBear]

Patrick

Thanks for the post!!!.

I just picked up spme 3lb shellac the other day to try on my pens because of the inconsistancy in the friction polish i have had.

Plus i am looking for a finish that will leave the wood grain in tack when using the pen and not appear or feel like plastic like some have said the CA does. Since i havent used the CA yet (yes im a chicken) i dont really know what it looks or feels like except the pics i have seen.

Do you apply the finish with the lathe running or not??? What kind of applicator so you use?? Is it possible to shorten the drying time if you leave the lathe running and apply it like a friction polish?

Some great tips there in your method!!!! Thanks again!!

Mack

 

[PopaBear]

William

I checked out the web site you had but i didnt find anything related to the shelf life of the product. This is the same stuff i got at HD the other day though. I would think since its cut with denatured alchohol that if it dries out you could thin or reconstitute it by adding a little of the same stuff.

Mack

 

[pecartus]

If you search for Shellac Flakes on the internet, there are a lot of articles mixed in with the web sales sites that explain about shellac and the advantages and dis-advantages to shellac. You can also search french polish techniques as well.

Mack; I do this on the lathe at about 1800 RPM, the friction heat does dry the the outer coat of the shellac/Tung mixture (same process as shellawax and Crystal Coat)but since I use a heavier mixture content than they do, I leave it alone for the two hours for it to harden and seal into the wood itself (allows for pentration of tung oil and stabilizes the finish (not tacky). I use a lint free cotton cloth to apply the finish. I soak the cloth before using for about 10 minutes and then put more mixture on the cloth before applying, the friction causes the finish to draw from the cloth for a more even coat. Some people use a French polish method which in itself is a art form to applying shellac.

One of the main reasons why I use the shellac method is the easy repair to the finish if damaged. Man made finishes have to be sanded down to re apply finish to varying degrees. The CA finish which is beautiful when finished properly cannot be repaired unless you completely go back to the base of the finish itself, meaning you have to disassemble the pen and sand back down to the wood itself and then reapply CA to get the look consistency you orginally had. The same applies for laquer, poly and varnish finishes as well. The shellac finish allows you to melt shellac into the spot that is damage, thus less work and after building back up your shellac in the damaged spot, you cannot tell where it was damaged (again time consuming). The main dis-advantage to shellac is with alcohol (any kind), alcohol will damage a shellac finish, I use a renaissance wax that is a micro-crystalline wax that provides good protection against harmful chemicals that damage finishes. Museums use this type of wax to protect their wood antiques. Also another tip on shellac finishes, keep in mind that ambient temperatures and humidity affect the finishing times of shellac. You can compensate for this a little with your mixture but not totally, high humidity areas use less Tung oil more shellac, low humidity and dry areas use more tung oil than shellac, you just have to experiment with it and its easier than it sounds. Rainy days in KC with temps in the mid 80's, I add 1 1/2 parts of shellac to the mixture. KC doesnt have low humidity, so I have never had to add more Tung oil, but I have relatives who live in Southern Arizona that do add more tung oil to the mixture (yep, they like it too and are flatworkers like me). I hope this helps and again I want to stress, this is only one finishing method out of a group of great finishes.

 

[PopaBear]

Patrick

Thanks for the update! I will be using this on my next batch of pens this weekend. I will also be working with the Mylands since i have only used it a couple times on stoppers but liked the finish i got.

I have a hunch that the Tung oil Shellac mix will be the best for me and the effect i want though.

When you mix the tung oil and shellac i am presuming based on your message that you mix half and half if the environment is right.

 

[pecartus]

Mack,

It's two parts tung Oil and 5 parts 2lb blonde shellac cut and apply with presoaked lint free cotton cloth. I run the lathe at about 1800 rpm, but you can run it at a higher rpm if you wish or lower. Add more shellac for higher humidity climates. You can't mess it up they work very well together. Also for a higher shine before waxing, buff out the last shellac coat you apply then apply your renaissance wax and buff it and assemble pen. email me off line if you run into trouble this weekend. I will be around the shop.