Thoughts, observations and encouragement on techniques

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PatrickR

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(Long post)
I was quite active here a few years ago and have gotten back into it recently. I noticed then and still now how tight lipped some are about the techniques used to create some of the most beautiful pens shown here.
First, this does not apply to advice given to new turners. Everyone appears happy to help them out. Second, it does not apply to the segmenting aspect either, there are a lot of people freely helping those that are interested in doing it.
I mainly see it involving the highest end kitless pens. Someone will post a gorgeous example, the maker is and should be proud of their work, but when someone asked how did you do ....? Either "crickets" or a non answer. Like "by hand" or "a lot of practice and a lot of ruined blanks" (I have my ideas why this is but want to keep this positive)
I worked in the sigh industry for many years and it was like that for a long time. You had to go to work for some one to find out the real ways of the trade. Technology has changed that business to the point that the old ways are gone and the masters are dead. It will never be the same. This is happening currently with pens. Desktop CNC machines are common place and will only get cheaper. If the people that hand make high end pens don't share the techniques used, either someplace like here or find an apprentice, these techniques will be lost also.
Food for thought.


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jttheclockman

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Food for thought you want. I do not see what you are seeing. First off there are very few kitless pen makers here and when you say highend that is even down to a handful. If they are showing their work I am sure they use metal lathes and maybe cnc machines or as some silver casting. These are things that for the most part not many people here can even think of playing in that arena. You need drill and taps to do this work and it gets expensive. I know one of the highend kitless makers is Skiprat and he will show you and explain anything you want to know of his work. He has always been that way. Others I am not seeing many.
 

PatrickR

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I could give exact examples but wont call out individuals. The non answer examples I gave were basically exact quotes from the last month. Look through the show off your pens for questions asked and note how many real answers are given. High end is relative and meant as the top tier pens that show up here. True high end pens are already predominantly machine (CNC) made.
A couple examples,
Swaging rings - not uncommon to see, often asked about.
How they accomplished it is never explained. I did a lot of research a few years ago and found only one example of a how to (It was quite old, on another site) and didn't work for me.
Custom clips - commonly seen. Real how to advise never given.
My main point is, if its not passed on it will be gone and faster than you would think.


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Fred Bruche

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Patrick, do you think that there is only one way to make a custom clip? I don't believe there's a single technique to achieve a look, nor it is tied to a person or their equipment... I am convinced most of us could get the exact same material and equipment as Steven (aka @skiprat) yet never achieve his mastery in pen design. And sharing pictures of finished pens doesn't oblige anyone to share the techniques used to make it. In short, I don't understand your whining.
 
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The secret to making a kitless pen isn't equipment. It's patience and nerve enough to try. I've made a fair number of kitless pens using a metal file and a wood lathe. When it comes to tap and die sizes a good part of what decides that is personal taste. I would say the most important tool for kitless is a pair of calipers. For me nib to body I use 8 or 9mm and cap to body 10-12 mm. The best way to find out what questions you need to ask is to start on your first one and ask as you run into issues.
 

jttheclockman

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I could give exact examples but wont call out individuals. The non answer examples I gave were basically exact quotes from the last month. Look through the show off your pens for questions asked and note how many real answers are given. High end is relative and meant as the top tier pens that show up here. True high end pens are already predominantly machine (CNC) made.
A couple examples,
Swaging rings - not uncommon to see, often asked about.
How they accomplished it is never explained. I did a lot of research a few years ago and found only one example of a how to (It was quite old, on another site) and didn't work for me.
Custom clips - commonly seen. Real how to advise never given.
My main point is, if its not passed on it will be gone and faster than you would think.


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Wow, I looked back at some past pens in the SOYP forum for Feb. You had a couple from new members here that have 4 or 5 posts and who knows if they will even come back. There were a couple very basic kitless pens that everyone knows how to make. The one with the swag rings did answer and said they will try to do a write up. He has a business and is actually a big time pen maker so sharing maybe something that can effect bottom line numbers. Sorry but I do not agree with your assessment. But that is just my opinion. If your are serious about knowing something I would send them a PM and maybe they will share one on one. Many times questions get asked but nothing ever becomes of them. Skil is needed for many types of pen making and to explain every step is just impossible.
 

tomas

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A number of years ago when I was much younger, I played a lot of racquet ball. It was great exercise and I enjoyed the camaraderie. We decided to enter a tournament at the YMCA. There were different skill brackets and we studiously made an effort to make sure we were in the correct bracket. When it came time to play my opponent, he completely took me apart and in the 3 games I only scored a handful of points. My wife and 4 kids were all thereto support me. I was pretty humiliated. I learned the next day that my opponent was known around the courts as a grand master and had won numerous trophies by entering tournaments at lower skill brackets. Sportsman like? I don't know, but I wouldn't do it. I have found the situation mentioned at the top a number of times in various crafty pursuits. Would I refuse to share this type of information? No, but I can understand how someone may have spent a lot of time perfecting a process or technique and may not want to share them. Ethical, probably, but I wouldn't do it.

Many of the members here are totally free with their processes and techniques, even to the point of making tutorials. These are the people I generally pay attention to.

Tomas
 

Dalecamino

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Several years ago, I found myself replying to many private messages to answer questions about this kind of pen making. So I decided to make this meager tutorial to try to help. It is difficult (for me) to try to explain how to's by typing. You almost HAVE to learn hands on. But, I am no teacher either. Trial and error helps. And, BTW you don't need a cnc to make these pens. I can't think of anyone who does. I do know of some who use cnc to engrave designs on metal pens. Hope you get more answers to your questions.
 

jalbert

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Patrick, do you think that there is only one way to make a custom clip? I don't believe there's a single technique to achieve a look, nor it is tied to a person or their equipment... I am convinced most of us could get the exact same material and equipment as Steven (aka @skiprat) yet never achieve his mastery in pen design. And sharing pictures of finished pens doesn't oblige anyone to share the techniques used to make it. In short, I don't understand your whining.
This. Everyone who has moved beyond basic 3 piece kitless pens has specialized in some direction to establish their own methods, and asking "how do you do it" is a very broad question. There are plenty of articles and threads on here that detail the basics of topics like clip making or threading. Search for them, it will be more productive than trying to cajole someone into writing a multi paragraph overview in a post.
Going back to the idea of specialization: certain techniques are only specialized because the makers put in the time and effort to develop them. You imply that people on here are being stingy with their knowledge? From my point of view, maybe people on here are being too demanding with their requests, and have high expectations that knowledge of specialized techniques should be given to them rather than putting in the time and mileage to develop them. On many occasions I've given detailed information on how to do certain techniques and have been met with the response of "oh that sounds like too much effort" or "oh that is going to be too expensive." In some cases the question is even prefaced with "can you tell me how to do xxxx, but I don't want to learn new skills.
There is a considerable amount of information on here...much more than when I started. It's up to the up and comers to apply it and put the time in to expand upon it and develop their own style.
 

FGarbrecht

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I could give exact examples but wont call out individuals. The non answer examples I gave were basically exact quotes from the last month. Look through the show off your pens for questions asked and note how many real answers are given. High end is relative and meant as the top tier pens that show up here. True high end pens are already predominantly machine (CNC) made.
A couple examples,
Swaging rings - not uncommon to see, often asked about.
How they accomplished it is never explained. I did a lot of research a few years ago and found only one example of a how to (It was quite old, on another site) and didn't work for me.
Custom clips - commonly seen. Real how to advise never given.
My main point is, if its not passed on it will be gone and faster than you would think.


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(Long post)
I was quite active here a few years ago and have gotten back into it recently. I noticed then and still now how tight lipped some are about the techniques used to create some of the most beautiful pens shown here.
First, this does not apply to advice given to new turners. Everyone appears happy to help them out. Second, it does not apply to the segmenting aspect either, there are a lot of people freely helping those that are interested in doing it.
I mainly see it involving the highest end kitless pens. Someone will post a gorgeous example, the maker is and should be proud of their work, but when someone asked how did you do ....? Either "crickets" or a non answer. Like "by hand" or "a lot of practice and a lot of ruined blanks" (I have my ideas why this is but want to keep this positive)
I worked in the sigh industry for many years and it was like that for a long time. You had to go to work for some one to find out the real ways of the trade. Technology has changed that business to the point that the old ways are gone and the masters are dead. It will never be the same. This is happening currently with pens. Desktop CNC machines are common place and will only get cheaper. If the people that hand make high end pens don't share the techniques used, either someplace like here or find an apprentice, these techniques will be lost also.
Food for thought.


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I've wondered about this as well and have observed the same thing and been frustrated by it. I think your questions are valid, but the fact is that many accomplished craftsmen/women like to share and teach, and many just don't. A common reason for not sharing is the belief that hard won skills can only be gained by going through a painful process of trying and failing and trying again, and people don't want to give away for free what they gained through an arduous process. Another obvious reason is protecting the bottom line. I can understand the latter reason, but not the former. Some people are just jerks.

I don't think this dynamic is going to change but you can make an end run around it. I post comments asking about technical issues or questions when I want to learn about a process, and you can very quickly judge who is a teacher and who isn't willing to share. You just have to accept that, and when your questions aren't answered, look elsewhere for support. Often, answers can be found by searching generally in the forums and the tutorials section. There are a surprising number of experts here who have created invaluable resources by freely sharing their knowledge in their posts and how-to tutorials (thank you to all these generous individuals!). If you are lucky, you'll find a mentor -- someone with a shared interest and expertise who is willing to teach, either virtually or in 'real life' (this is how I have learned by and large). And finally, I've found you-tube to be the richest resource for actual technical instruction, as well as other sites that have relevant information (e.g. The Fountain Pen Network). IAP is a great resource, especially for basic kit pen making technique, far less so for advanced techniques, but it does provide a foundation upon which to learn and build. One method that does work is to identify individuals who are generous with their time and advice (you can learn this just by reading lots of posts), and pm them with questions, like "do you know anything such-and-such technique and would you be willing to give me some advice?".
 

monophoto

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One of the leading photography educators in the mid-20th century was Minor White; he headed up the photography program at RIT, and was also known as a writer and quasi-mystic. In short, he was considered by most who knew him as weird.

When asked to describe how he made a particular photography, he often said 'The camera was faithfully used'.

Same principle - keep it a secret!

Several years ago, I had to undergo extensive surgery to repair a detached retina. When I was back for a checkup the next day, my surrgeon commented that his surgical fellow had assisted during the procedure, and that he hoped that I wasn't offended or bothered by that. My response to him was that I'm also a professional (OK, I'm an engineer and I understand that some might not agree that engineers are professionals) and I believe that most professionals understand that part of being a professional is the obligation to train the next generation. On that basis, I replied that I applauded his willingness to allow his student to have an active role in the process

Same idea applies to wood turning - the only way to learn is through lots of practice, and lots of mentoring. But it is true that while mentoring can teach technique, skill is only aquired through lots of practice. So ultimately, no one loses anything by sharing technique; each person fine tunes that technique into a personal skill that can be emulated but never really copied.
 
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darrin1200

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@PatrickR I am sorry that you feel that way. Sometimes there is no tricks or techniques to explain. As an example, making clips. My clips are made using a drill press, a hacksaw, files and lots of sandpaper. It can take me 2 hours to make a simple bent clip. Most of that time, is because I need more practice using those tools effectively. That's not so much technique, as practice. While I have been making bespoke pens for quite a while, I have not done the steps often enough in a short period of time, to increase my speed.
Some things also require expensive machinery. Making two piece clips, often requires milling a slot in the back of one piece and soldering another piece into it. Other than telling you to machine a slot in the back with a mill, there is nothing else to tel. Unless you want to learn how to use a mill to do this, which then becomes a whole different story. On the other hand. I don't use a mill, but I won't explain how I do my slots. The techniques I use are inherently not safe and I won't tell someone to do something they shouldn't. As a note, a small mill is the next thing on my shop wish list.
I think, quite often, people are looking for that eureka technique that will work for them. In reality, most of the techniques used to make kitless pens are basic turning, drilling and taping. Techniques that all require repetitive practice, to achieve super high quality and relative speed.
Techniques seen in the forum, that are new or different, are normally explained. Such as the ring swaging mentioned above. (I'm looking forward to that discussion). You can go back through the IAP posts, and find a discussion on just about every aspect of kitless making. While most of the makers, don't wish to write tutorials or long explanations on the use of files or drills, almost everyone will answer a direct question regarding a problem you might be having.

There is no course on pen making. Most of the skills, that you say are at risk of being lost, are actually just being reapplied in the making of pens. There has never been a "pen maker" trade. In the western world, there have been people who were known for designing pens, but it wasn't something you "normally" went out to learn. That being said, I have heard of more makers doing demonstrations at clubs and shows.

It's very much like basic pen making. You see a demo, or take a class, to learn the basics. Then you try it yourself and as you find difficult areas, you ask one of the "experts" to help with your technique, to get past the problem area.

This is a great place to learn, but remember that even the "experts" are still learning.
 

jjjaworski

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My first serious job after getting out of the Army was serving a 10,000 hour apprenticeship as a wood pattern maker in a steel foundry that made casting for the railroad industry.

When I would talk with some of the old timers about how they started out in the trade I heard a lot of similar stories. Besides giving them menial tasks, the journeymen would often turn their backs when doing something technical so as not to share a method. It all had to do with protecting their jobs. If you consider that this was after many had endured the Great Depression I can understand this.

For the most part, I never had any issues with journeymen sharing their knowledge and tricks of the trade. Sometimes it has to do with a validation of their skills and knowledge. As with anything, there is more than one way to skin a cat , so I would see different takes and doing the same task.

I remember talking about how to do a specific task that required a way to hold a piece to turn it. The journeyman told me, there are several ways to accomplish it. It all depends on how clever you are.

Some will share and some will not. It is human nature. With the internet there is plenty of material available " IF " someone wants to research it.

If someone does not want to share a technique just respect it .

I for one enjoy this site and have learned a lot of cool stuff. I may not attempt some things but do appreciate the time and skills involved.
 

jttheclockman

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It is good to see quite afew people speak to this topic and basically most are saying the same things. There is information out there and at times it takes time to do research. There is so much research and information packed in threads and in the library here on just about every topic in pen making and you will not find elsewhere. As I mentioned the making of such kitless pens is limited to a few here and yes it seems that number is growing which is great to see. But to make those top end kitless pens is just another step to masters degree and few achieve it because it takes time and dedication. I can say the same thing about segmenting. Then there is many ways to achieve certain looks and never a right or wrong way just a way. I try to explain any pen I make and when asked will answer any questions. Now one thing I will not do and at times it can apply to pen making is give electrical advice on how to because it is unsafe and just like when newbies ask simply questions, things get overlooked and left out because for me or others it is second nature. But to a newbie doing a pen or hooking up a switch or outlet it could be costly. So even if you get your questions answered there probably steps left out to get to final product that for one reason or other did not get explained. I still think for the most part people here are very forthcoming and will help. Good luck.
 

PatrickR

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Good input here.
First i should have been clearer. By "answering questions I was not thinking in terms of giving great detail, but enough info to get someone started or avoiding what will not work. I am a firm believer of learning by doing. I could read a dozen books on say welding but never really know how to do it without actually doing it. Also, this is not personal as some of the replies would try to imply. I thought the title indicated that. Yes, the web is full of information, also full of disinformation, a few words to direct a person to the good information is enough for anyone who truly wants to learn a process.

Fred - You think I'm whining? I don't know how an observation can be construed as such. As stated, this is not personal. I don't remember the last time I asked a question of someone here. I did not imply that it is an obligation to give any information only what I think the outcome could be if it's not.

JT - Effect on bottom line/ Maybe, but competition is good and the number of people that truly make a living from custom pens is minuscule. Sure, there are a lot of people that take commissions and recoup some of their expense but making a living from it is a whole other topic. If you do truly make a living at it, more power to you and please chime in.
The willingness to share within the segmenters is commendable. I think its mostly driven by the fact that they realize there is no way to make money doing it, so why not?

Tomas - The idea of making tutorials was not even considered by me. Covered in the first paragraph.
The idea of I learned the hard way you can too is your option but a little selfish and short sighted.

Dale - Thanks. I had not seen this before. I tried to download the file but it didn't work, I'll try on another machine.
Obviously a CNC is not necessary and from the videos I've seen of craftsmen in Japan and India 3/4 of the tools I have are not necessary. Desktop CNC machines are and will get cheaper by the year soon they will be less than the tools you and I have. With the ability to do 3D renderings these could pump out pens 24/7.

FGarbrecht - Thanks! It's not just me. HAHA

Jalbert - see my comment to Tomas about the hard way. You make some of the best looking pens I see on here and love to look at them. Wouldn't it be nice if your techniques and design ideas followed into the next generation? Consider finding a pupil/apprentice. There are sign painters living and dead that I know of and admire because they were masters of the craft. I would not have even know about them if they hadn't been willing to go against the grain of trade secrets and put their processes out.

Monophoto - Well put! Thanks!

Darrin1200 - Sorry? Don't be. Again this is not a personal thing at all.


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MRDucks2

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A lot of good feedback here. One comment I would add is that we cannot discount, when asking the "how" question, the background or history of the individual.

Some of those who impress we common folk started with a significant advantage before deciding to make pens.

They may never mention that they do such nice silver work - and have worked as a jeweler.

They make amazing castings that are hard to duplicate - and have a background in chemistry.

They turn with amazing detail and precision - and worked as a tool and die maker for 30 years.

It can even be as simple as they make few mistakes - because their mentor slapped them in the back of the head every time they did.

Explaining the basics or even enough to get you pointed in the right direction may not be too tough. But explaining in enough detail to replicate how to do something that even the maker hasn't actually thought about, but does as an accumulation of knowledge and skills, that's tough. With enough of those who are never fed enough info they may be tired of trying to explain.

"How do you make a pen?"
"First, you grow a tree."
 

Mikeyt

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I make a kit less item that I sell on the internet. Currently I am the only one selling this item that I know of. I get asked frequently how do I make it or how they can make it or get the kit. I don't want to share the process because it took me several years to come up with the process and item. I want to sell them and make spending money. If I share the process. Others may make and sell the item and I am then I am losing money. I like making money and worked hard to come up with an idea and process to make that idea into money and don't want to share.


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Carl Fisher

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Let me lend one more bit of food for thought.

The custom pen market is extremely competitive. Many of us are friends however there are many more out there who are taking the skills and techniques that we have spent years developing and perfecting and have shared over the years and using it to drastically undercut and devalue the custom pen market. As in half the price or more in some cases for "Pretty ink sticks" as they're being called lately (derogatory name for the same design done to death in the same commercially available materials) . So many of us have had to elevate and learn new techniques, some of which are closely guarded to maintain a competitive edge. I can name a fair number of techniques and designs I or other makers have come up with over the past 10 years that are now common place to the point I don't bother with them anymore.

Now that said, I'm happy to share a concept or give enough information for you to experiment and learn to do something on your own. I will hint at how to do something or give enough information that I feel provides you a starting point to figure out the rest. What I won't do is give you steps 1-100 in such a way that I may as well just turn the pen for you and remove any ability for you to hone your craft and develop a sense of style that is your own. That has been a common theme over the years here and feel free to bash me for that opinion all you want. Someone pops into IAP and the first thing they want is for someone to do everything short of hold the tool for them so they can make a $500 pen.

Sorry if that sounds harsh but I tend to say what many are thinking and why many of the high end custom makers don't come back to IAP after their first few years.
 

howsitwork

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I have found the site and people on it, to a person ( almost went non PC and said "to a man") to be helpful and generous when asked about techniques and jigs used etc.

Some of the items are " beyond my ability or interest" by that I mean I am intregued but not so much so that I decide to investigate and try to emulate them with my own take on their creations.

There is an old saying that emulation is the sincerest form of flattery.

I have enormous respect for those who post and give me inspiration and guidance. The best thing about advice though is you can chose whether to take it or not.

For most of us this is a relaxing pastime ( hope that's true from my readings on line over the last few years , if not I apologise to anyone offended ) , however there are those who, quite rightly have spent a lot of time learning and perfecting and make a living from it. They are giving me ideas and I do not expect them to spend time teaching me their techniques for free.

I enjoy the banter and frank, friendly exchanges and long may this continue in a spirit of friendship , respect and mutual understanding.
 

MRDucks2

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I must admit, there has been no instance for me thus far on anyone, including those who far outshine where I will ever be, to answer a specific question that will help my skills or execution. I will ask a very specific question or two and ensure I do not approach anything that would infringe on what I would presume to be their propriety knowledge if they are selling their products.
 

Carl Fisher

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I must admit, there has been no instance for me thus far on anyone, including those who far outshine where I will ever be, to answer a specific question that will help my skills or execution. I will ask a very specific question or two and ensure I do not approach anything that would infringe on what I would presume to be their propriety knowledge if they are selling their products.

This is a good point. There is a lot to be said for how someone approaches it and the respect they give the other party as well.

If they respectfully ask a very pointed question about part of a technique, that's one thing. If they demand to know start to finish how they did it, that's something completely different.

It sounds to me like you respect the makers and would be comfortable if certain questions were answered with a polite "I'd prefer not to share that at this time".
 

PatrickR

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Carl, i for one would totally respect a polite decline to answer.
Much better than "crickets" or the quasi smart ass ones I have seen.
Anyone who asks about a process with the intent to replicate the pen and undercut the original is a _hitheal.

On design in general - if you come up with one that is a good seller, its just a mater of time before it is replicated. Holds true in any business. Better to develop a recognizable style and expand upon it as time goes.


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I would also say that the more specific the question the easier it is to answer. I've had members PM me questions and sometimes you get a thank you and later a follow up question. Other times it's just curiosity. Either way not a problem. I actually have someone who if we can ever get our schedules coordinated is going to come to my shop and learn how to make a pen. I'm going to show him how to make the usual 3 parts and let him go where the muse takes him. To me it's not a pen, it's functional art and can and should be as diverse as the people making them.
Personally, with the price of kits these days I'm surprised more people haven't gone kitless.
 

tomas

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Good input here.

Tomas - The idea of making tutorials was not even considered by me. Covered in the first paragraph.
The idea of I learned the hard way you can too is your option but a little selfish and short sighted.
PatrickR;

"What we have here is a failure to communicate." I'm not sure what your first sentence to me means, but in your initial post's first paragraph you seem to be implying that tutorials are only for novices. In my experience, a tutorial can be written for any skill level determined by the author.

At no place in my post did I say I am a proponent of, "The idea of I learned the hard way you can too..." What I said was, "I have found the situation mentioned at the top a number of times in various crafty pursuits. Would I refuse to share this type of information? No, but I can understand how someone may have spent a lot of time perfecting a process or technique and may not want to share them. Ethical, probably, but I wouldn't do it."

Tomas
 

PatrickR

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Tomas, my apologies. I miss appointed those comments. I re read your post and there is nothing in it I would disagree with.


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jttheclockman

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JT - Effect on bottom line/ Maybe, but competition is good and the number of people that truly make a living from custom pens is minuscule. Sure, there are a lot of people that take commissions and recoup some of their expense but making a living from it is a whole other topic. If you do truly make a living at it, more power to you and please chime in.
The willingness to share within the segmenters is commendable. I think its mostly driven by the fact that they realize there is no way to make money doing it, so why not?


Sharing is one thing but if it effects one's bottom line then they do have every right to withhold. Now how much they withhold is up to them. Patrick you have not been her long enough to remember but there have been quite afew members that started out here and went on to their own business in the pen making field and many are doing quite well and kitless is one part of their inventory. But I remember when they too were questioned on things and it got some pushback as is now. I remember when the 360 degree herringbone pattern was developed and it was top secret for many years before it was let out. The basic knot was another one and there are many examples. You keep saying passing on information to future pen makers. Where are they coming from. we have no idea who will take those next steps. You see it all the time on etsy and ebay how pen turners undercut each other to make a few dollars. There are those that sell pens for less than you can buy a kit. I got in trouble with this a few months ago so will leave it alone but there is truth there. I do not know what the field for kitless pens market is because I do not play in that arena.

You say there is no way to make money at doing segmenting and I highly highly disagree with that statement. Segmenting is a field that maybe a step below kitless but has some of the same aspects so they are desired and the more higherend segmented pens do sell well. These are things that people just do not see everyday as opposed to that plain jane wood or acrylic blank pen.
 

leehljp

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Way back when, the first circuit board pen blanks appeared here, the seller was a regular member and sold quite a few blanks. Within a few months, a large un-named company was mass producing them and undercutting the members sales. Some people who make their living with custom pens do not post them here (or anywhere) for a reason, and I understand that.

There has long been a contrast of opinions on this subject:
• those who would not share at all.

• those who would help some, but make others figure out the steps from hints (A man named Eagle had a strong belief in this philosophy)

• Those who want to see others accomplish as much as possible and offer information as much as needed. Personally, this is what I enjoy.

There is a bible verse that deals with getting others to do more than the teacher (John 14:12); There is a Chinese proverb that says "Out of blue comes deep blue" meaning the student surpassed the teacher. I enjoy that! If I can help, I will.

But I understand other's reason for staying silent or tight lipped.
 

PatrickR

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JT - Off topic a bit but i was active on here when Mr. McKenzie made his first diamondcast blank. To my mind that is where the money is in all this, supply chain. If someone can make pens of any kind and make a living wage + from it great. I just don't see it. Selling a few pens on etsy, consignment or craft shows doesn't creat a bottom line to protect. Apparently the kitless fountain pen world is just as cut throat.


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jttheclockman

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JT - Off topic a bit but i was active on here when Mr. McKenzie made his first diamondcast blank. To my mind that is where the money is in all this, supply chain. If someone can make pens of any kind and make a living wage + from it great. I just don't see it. Selling a few pens on etsy, consignment or craft shows doesn't creat a bottom line to protect. Apparently the kitless fountain pen world is just as cut throat.


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I have said it many times here that selling blanks is a better avenue than selling pens for sure. But again there are those that developed a business and do sell pens well. You need something that sets you apart from the others and you can do well. All depends how much time and effort you want to put into it.
 

jttheclockman

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JT, can you tell me a couple of these pen businesses so that I can check them out?


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I will let you do the research here and go back to some older threads. If you are on FB you will see one very prominent and you happen to mention diamondcast blanks. One made my logo for me years ago. One sells 100,000 pens a year. Maybe not last year. As I said many came through here but not here any more. Check threads with websites mentioned. One sells his pens for $1000's. Case you do not know it but the Gisi's are members here. They do not post but did join and in fact represented us in Penturners world magazine contest and won.
 

PatrickR

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I am not on face book and if i were to google custom pens id go down a rabbit hole. Not happening. Are these businesses unmentionable here? Just want to see what these highly successful independent pen makers are doing.


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jttheclockman

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@jttheclockman

John, the man is simply asking for a little help in locating information about some pen businesses so that he can check them out.
And you are not co-operating. . Even after you told him about the existence of those businesses and their huge successes.
So, just like what was being complained about in the Opening Post of this thread, you are leaving it to him to find out for himself.
I don't think that is consistent with the spirit of this IAP Forum, wherein everybody is encouraged to help everybody else with whatever they ask.
C'mon, John, tell him what he wants to know !

And don't reply to me about this post, John. . I am not going to answer you.
Really Mal.
 

PatrickR

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He has a point JT. A few company names is all I asked for. Who knows, I might see one I just have to have. I have no interest in trying to copy their work or "hurt their bottom line". You have only reinforced the premise of my observations.


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jttheclockman

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I am not on face book and if i were to google custom pens id go down a rabbit hole. Not happening. Are these businesses unmentionable here? Just want to see what these highly successful independent pen makers are doing.


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You should join FB there is a group there called custom pens and you will see all kitless pens. There is a Blind machinist there that makes some of the best pens I have seen and I have my eyesight Dan Parker
 

PatrickR

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https://www.gouletpens.com/ Brian Goulet

https://opusmechan.com/ Dale Penkala
There are others. Not sure what you want me to do. Look back at some of the old threads before 2010 and reead what we were talking about back then. This topic is not new.

Interesting read.
https://www.penturners.org/threads/marketing-kitless-with-component-pens.96427/#post-1389092

Thanks. This is all I was asking.
You say this topic is not new. Do you mean the topic of my original post?


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jttheclockman

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He has a point JT. A few company names is all I asked for. Who knows, I might see one I just have to have. I have no interest in trying to copy their work or "hurt their bottom line". You have only reinforced the premise of my observations.


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I gave you a couple. Gave you a link to this topic before. I gave you a FB page that you should look into. Is there anything else I can do for you???
 
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