Embeded objects in resin blanks

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ldb2000

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After reading about one persons problem with some snakeskin blanks I'm posting this to answer some questions that some may have about these types of blanks (embedded materials blanks , like circuit board , shell , snakeskin , label/photo blanks) . This mainly applies to PR for the first part but all other types of resin for the second part . Remember we are doing things with these types of blanks that the resin really wasn't designed for and as such there can be occasional problems .
One , Polyester resin blanks have a sticky surface to them as part of the design of the resin . This allows any further pours of resin to stick to the surface better then fully cured resin . This sticky surface can be avoided by either post curing the blanks for an hour or more in a low temperature oven at the expense of creating a more brittle blank , or adding a surfacing agent (styrene/wax mixture) . The sticky surface has no negative effect on the blanks other then being sticky and can be turned off without any worries .
Two , Tubes pushing out . The cast object (snake skin , shell , circuit board ... ) has to be stuck to the tube by some method . This means it must be glued to the tube by some method . most glues are softened by heat and in casting there is heat created by the curing of the resin and post curing (if done) . This heat can break the glue bond to the tube causing the tube to break loose . While annoying this can be easily repaired by simply putting a couple of drops of thin CA on the ends of the blank and allowing it to soak in . Also using a barrel trimmer can cause enough heat by friction to break the glue bond to the tube causing the same problem . I always advise using a sanding of the ends rather then barrel trimmers on any cast embedding blanks to avoid the heat problems .
Three , Turning these types of blanks presents another problem . The thickness of the resin over the embedded object can get very thin on certain types of pen kits . Sierras are very popular kits but the thickness of the blank can be very thin and the embedded objects can be very close to the surface of the blank . Sierra Vista's or Wall St III's are the best choice for these types of blanks . Regular Sierra's can be used but special care has to be used in these situations . The phrase "Very light cuts" is used allot around here but in cases of embedded object blanks it is even more important . On a normal Sierra kit there is only a very small amount of blank to begin with at the ends of the blanks and when you add something like a circuit board , that covering of resin is even thinner . If you are not very careful and taking very , very light cuts you can easily tear away the resin from the covering of the embedded object . This requires techniques that take lots of practice with a skew to master . A gouge or carbide cutter tool is way too aggressive to safely turn the very thin resin covering on these blanks and if you try and use these tools you will most likely fail . I'm not going to argue that some have done this with gouges or carbide cutting tools because it can be done but chances are good that you will tear out some resin in most cases . These are great tools for turning down a blank but when the resin gets this thin only a skew or specially tuned scraper can safely do this type of cut .
I hope this answers some questions and helps you become more successful on turning this type of blank .
 
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Gary Max

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Thanks Butch---sure wish I could put words together like that. One thing I did learn today-----I ain't selling any cast blanks on IAP anymore. There's a bottom line and it makes no difference who's blank it is-----anyone can overturn it, plus I have a mountain of wood that needs to be sold anyway.
 

ldb2000

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The Woodchuck is a great tool but it really isn't the right tool for final turning . Even with a gentle touch they are too aggressive . Learn to use a skew with a shearing cut and you will never have a problem taking off .001" per pass .
 

ldb2000

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No problem Gary . Embedded castings are great but people have to learn that they are not like any other blank they will ever turn . The advent of carbide cutting tools was a great thing for penturning but people have to understand how these tools work and what the limitations of these tools are when it comes to finesse turning . Problem is that a number of people here think that they can just power through a blank with one of these tools and are upset when they blow up a blank , they think it was the blank that was the problem . Embedded material blanks require a totally different technique when it comes to final turning , and the use of turning tools are different as well .
I am in no way criticizing the carbide tools , they are great but they are not the right tool in every case . Technically the right tool for final turning these types of blanks would be a specially tuned scraper but unless you regrind your own tools a skew is the next best tool , and the best technique with a skew is a shearing cut , not scraping . The back grind on a skew is not high enough to use it as a scraper for these types of blanks . I'm not an expert on tool edge creation but from everything that I have read , the grind should be closer to 45 degrees for the back grind on a scraper to tone the aggressiveness of the tool down enough to use for the kind of cuts needed for these blanks .
 

ldb2000

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That is great Thom , I'm glad to see you have had no problems with it but the fact still remains that these tools are not the best tools for every type of turning . I use a skew almost exclusively but that is also not the best tool for every type of turning either . There are many types of tools and each one has it's own special type of cut or material it should be used on and for anything out side of this specialty the tool is a little more of a compromise . If there was any one tool made that did every type of cut in every type of material perfectly then there wouldn't be such a large variety of tools out there .
 

glycerine

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Thanks Butch---sure wish I could put words together like that. One thing I did learn today-----I ain't selling any cast blanks on IAP anymore. There's a bottom line and it makes no difference who's blank it is-----anyone can overturn it, plus I have a mountain of wood that needs to be sold anyway.

But Gary... What about the watch part blanks that you've been working on??!?
 

JoeHodge1978

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Butch,I have planning to do a snakeskin casting now for almost a year.I got the pressure pot,vacuum pump, and tons of articles on how to cast.But not once did I think of the blank post casting.I have also skinned several snakes and tanned the hides.I really want to thank you for all the inevitable screw ups you saved me from that I would have accumulated trying to turn the snakeskin like a normal blank.I hope your post gets put in the library for others too see.Again I thank you.
 

Gary Max

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Thanks Butch---sure wish I could put words together like that. One thing I did learn today-----I ain't selling any cast blanks on IAP anymore. There's a bottom line and it makes no difference who's blank it is-----anyone can overturn it, plus I have a mountain of wood that needs to be sold anyway.

But Gary... What about the watch part blanks that you've been working on??!?


Guess I will just have to turn them myself--:)--lets see how many shows do I have in the next ten weeks-----maybe a big watch sign for the booth.
 

mick

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Butch, this has become a great thread, very informative! Another thing to add about turning embedded blanks. Too many of us are hung up on making a smooth transition between blank and fittings. We need to modify our thinking and realize it's ok to leave things a little proud when turning something like the blanks mentioned above as long as we make it look like we meant to do it this way. A small bead is ok if you think you're gonna turn down to the material
 

rjwolfe3

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Very timely thread as I was just about to try my fist cast with a Resinsaver mold. I don't have any snakeskin yet but I am trying some other ideas out right now. Thanks for the great advice.
 

its_virgil

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FYI: I've made a couple (actually more than that:biggrin:) of snake skin blanks. I use CA to stick the skins on the tubes. I've had no problems. I post cured some snake skin blanks when I first started several years ago and I WILL NOT post cure snake blanks ever again. Some may but I will not and I see no reason to do so. Set them in the sun and all will be fine.
Do a good turn daily!
Don
 
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burgerman

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Butch,
Thanks for all the great casting tips. Speaking of embedded objects, I have one question, if you don't mind. I'm going to try a watch pen on a Sierra (Vista) I got some watch parts on ebay and have painted my tube black. I plan to use med. CA to attach the parts to the painted tube. I've used both Alumilite and PR, and I plan to use PR for this for the better gloss shine. I use Resin Saver molds. It seems that all those little parts may be perfect little bubble traps for the uncured resin. You said in another post to coat the blank with resin before casting, or doing your pour. Do you mean to coat it with just the plain PR, without the MEKP added in yet? If so, do you think just brushing it on with an acid/glue brush would work well? Thanks much.
 

skywizzard

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Butch, thanks so much for your useful and informative posting. I have done some casting, mostly by trial and error and have encountered many of the problems you outlined. I especially like the idea of using CA on the tube ends after casting. This is a problem I have encountered and as you pointed out the solution is really simple. It just takes someeone to point it out to some of us thick-headed turners.
 

jttheclockman

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Butch,
Thanks for all the great casting tips. Speaking of embedded objects, I have one question, if you don't mind. I'm going to try a watch pen on a Sierra (Vista) I got some watch parts on ebay and have painted my tube black. I plan to use med. CA to attach the parts to the painted tube. I've used both Alumilite and PR, and I plan to use PR for this for the better gloss shine. I use Resin Saver molds. It seems that all those little parts may be perfect little bubble traps for the uncured resin. You said in another post to coat the blank with resin before casting, or doing your pour. Do you mean to coat it with just the plain PR, without the MEKP added in yet? If so, do you think just brushing it on with an acid/glue brush would work well? Thanks much.


Frank

I am sure Butch will answer your question but I would like to throw my 2¢ in and you can use it or not your choice. When casting things like carbon fiber, or metal sleeving or fiberglass sleeving blanks that I cast, I coat the material with resin mixed with the catalyst as if it were a pour. I use Silmar41 and use 4 drops per ounce.

With that said, in the case of the watch parts I would not coat them because of the delicate nature of the parts. Yes these can and will be air traps. What I would do is before you add the catalyst to the resin I would warm the resin. I put my resin in a old oven and set the temp to 150degrees and warm for about 15- 20 min. Take it out and add my cat. and stir slowly so as to not cause bubbles. Then I pour in mold making sure it pours down a side so it does not splash and cause bubbles. If you are still concerned then use some sort of vibration for a few minutes. Being the resin is warm the bubbles will flow to the top with ease. That is the way I would do it. Good luck and I am sure others will add their methods.
 

truckfixr

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Thank you very much for posting all this great information, Butch. I'm soon going to try casting some snakeskin for the first time, and you've opened my eyes to several potential issues that I hadn't considered.
 

MobilMan

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Gary--I hate to hear you say you're gonna quit selling. Altho I've never bought from you I've read on here so many times of members bragging on your products. Just because one [maybe two] persons complain about blowouts. Sometime people don't consider the larger kits like the Sierra Vista or Wallstreet 111 and try to get by with the other kits. I've turned many snake skin and circuit pens and never had a problem. I think lack of experience and patience is the the main cause of blowouts--not the maker of the blank being turned. Hang in there, Gary. To me, the prior kits and the ones Butch mentions are a piece of cake compared to the laminated kit my wife bought at Woodcraft. The thing was like xxxxxx down the whole blank. Lots of soaking with CA because of the cuts going against a side grain.
 

MobilMan

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Very good comments there Butch. I think it will help a lot of turners with casting/turning. I've turned a pen with every tool I've got. just for the heck of it. I REFUSE to use a tool in the scraping method. But every pen I turn is done with a 3/4 spindle gouge used like a Skew, just what I've gotten used to. Shavings 4-5 foot long come off a PR blank thinner than a piece of paper.
 

burgerman

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John T,
Thanks for the tip about warming the resin first, then adding the catalyst. I have an old toaster oven that I've used for curing blanks after casting. I assume that would work.
This may be a dumb question, but what type of container do you put the resin in to warm
it while in the oven? Thanks.
 

ldb2000

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As JohnT said Warming the resin will help the bubbles rise to the surface quickly . I'm not comfortable about warming the resin in a toaster oven though . PR vapor is highly flammable and any spark or even glowing heating element could start a fire . I use a specially designed kiln for heating the resin but a simple and safe way to do it would be to place your cup of resin in a bowl of hot water for about 5 minutes . 125 degrees is more then hot enough to thin the resin . Don't forget to wipe off any water from your mixing cup before you pour , a drip of water will not be good for the resin .
I would paint on some resin but be very careful not to trap any bubbles under the parts or knock any parts loose . As I've said before the best way to eliminate bubbles is to not introduce them to begin with . When you mix in the MEKP , keep you mixing stick on the bottom of your mixing cup and stir slowly . The idea is to just mix it , not beat it to a froth . Then when you pour , pour it from one end of the mold in a thin stream that don't splash and add bubbles to the mold . If all this is done right you don't need pressure or vacuum at all and you will have a bubble free casting . Practice makes perfect , don't worry if the first couple don't come out perfect but learn by your mistakes and improve with each casting .
 

burgerman

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Butch,
Thanks very much for the tips. That all makes sense. This should really help me to avoid some pitfalls. I've done some label casting, but have never done it with 3d items attached to the tube. If I ever get it completed, I will post the pen. I've been working on "prepping" watch parts and gears. Geez, that's tedious work. Not sure how I will get the larger gears to bend around the tube. They are kind of "springy." I'll give it a go and see what happens. I have enough parts ready to try at least two blanks. Thanks again for all the great tips.
 

burgerman

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Charlie,
Thanks for the great idea! I've been mulling over similar ideas, but nothing had come
to fruition yet. The thing is, if they will stay bent, this will be great. Some of them are very thin, and they seem to be kind of brittle. I snapped a few while taking out the stems. I'll give it a try, and hopefully they will stay bent. I've got the HF punches, so I'm definitely going to use your jig idea. Then, of course, the Resin Saver mold when ready to cast!
 

jttheclockman

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John T,
Thanks for the tip about warming the resin first, then adding the catalyst. I have an old toaster oven that I've used for curing blanks after casting. I assume that would work.
This may be a dumb question, but what type of container do you put the resin in to warm
it while in the oven? Thanks.


I have never had any problems heating my resin in a toaster oven and I use clear plastic cups that are what they call highball cups. They are pretty strong and stand up to the heat. What I do is preheat the oven before I place my cup in it so I know the temp inside is about 125-150 degrees. If your worried about fires then do as Butch says and use the hot water procedure. A warm resin will definetly help with the bubbles. You will even notice when you stir the mix that very few bubbles are introduced. Good luck with the project. I also plan on making a few of these watch pens when I get back to working on pens in the shop.
 

burgerman

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John T,

Thanks for the additional resin tips. Not sure which way I will go with it. Thanks to everyone for the tips. I'm still working on gluing on gears and other parts.

Charlie, Your jig idea works perfectly! The little gears bend nicely. No tapping with hammer is required. I just lay the pin pinch on top of the gear sitting in the half hole recess and push down and roll it a few times. I used a 10mm hole for use with Sierra tubes. I went with 10mm as it is slightly more of a radius than needed, so when the gear slightly bends back after bending it, it ends up being the exact radius needed. I will post it when I get one case. Thanks everyone for all the tips. I just hope the resin won't cause the CA bond between the parts and the tube to break.
 

burgerman

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gear forming jig

Here's my version:
 

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burgerman

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I know what you mean. Looks like you used African Blackwood for yours. If not, maybe Ebony? Some of the parts are like a solid, chrome disc with teeth. They are very brittle.
I can't seem to bend those. They just crack/break.
 

jtdesigns

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If you are looking for an opportunity to purchase another tool(s), I have been using a HF Dopping/dapping block set or better yet this gem:
http://www.riogrande.com/MemberArea..._330|1284=Dapping+and+Forming+Sets+and+Blocks

I have also been able to form some steel "parts" by a annealing them first then forming with the tool I listed above. I am using micro gears and cogs (they are definitely not watch parts):rolleyes: because I am working on a commissioned pen for race car driver which I will be calling it "Gear Head". Lurkers and trolls Be Advised: this does not in any way infringe upon any copyright or patent. If you must know.......I am using gears from RC Servo motors, fishing reels, etc.

For my IAP brethren, at the risk of diluting a market that I could have created by copyrighting this "concept", I will not pursue this avenue so have at it. :biggrin:
 

bruce119

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If you are looking for an opportunity to purchase another tool(s), I have been using a HF Dopping/dapping block set

Jeff I tried to find the tool you mention above on H.F. but came up empty. Could you enlighten a little perhaps a link.

I have a TON of old golf club shafts. I have split a few they are stepped in size and use a punch. It works OK a little bit of a pain but works. I need to try heat on the steel ones cause yes some of the steel do just brake but I would think heat would discolor the nice shinny steel and blacken or blue it. Maybe it can be buffed out afterward.

Anyway I don't think we're going to see to many folks doing this.

It is a LOT of work and takes a LOT of TIME to do a nice one anyway.

How many 10s of hours did you put into one of those. How can you still see straight:hypnotized:

keep up the good work
 

jtdesigns

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About 4 hours total. I will try and find product number

If you are looking for an opportunity to purchase another tool(s), I have been using a HF Dopping/dapping block set

Jeff I tried to find the tool you mention above on H.F. but came up empty. Could you enlighten a little perhaps a link.

I have a TON of old golf club shafts. I have split a few they are stepped in size and use a punch. It works OK a little bit of a pain but works. I need to try heat on the steel ones cause yes some of the steel do just brake but I would think heat would discolor the nice shinny steel and blacken or blue it. Maybe it can be buffed out afterward.

Anyway I don't think we're going to see to many folks doing this.

It is a LOT of work and takes a LOT of TIME to do a nice one anyway.

How many 10s of hours did you put into one of those. How can you still see straight:hypnotized:

keep up the good work
 

titan2

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If you are looking for an opportunity to purchase another tool(s), I have been using a HF Dopping/dapping block set or better yet this gem:
http://www.riogrande.com/MemberArea..._330|1284=Dapping+and+Forming+Sets+and+Blocks

I have also been able to form some steel "parts" by a annealing them first then forming with the tool I listed above. I am using micro gears and cogs (they are definitely not watch parts):rolleyes: because I am working on a commissioned pen for race car driver which I will be calling it "Gear Head". Lurkers and trolls Be Advised: this does not in any way infringe upon any copyright or patent. If you must know.......I am using gears from RC Servo motors, fishing reels, etc.

For my IAP brethren, at the risk of diluting a market that I could have created by copyrighting this "concept", I will not pursue this avenue so have at it. :biggrin:

You could also check out a wooden version here: http://www.fdjtool.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=DA3135


Barney
 
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