Sierras Returned for Repair...

SuperDave · Mar 28, 2008

... seems that the transmissions would no longer extend the ink refill but just spin round and round.

Disassembled the pens and damaged one of the acrylic barrels in the process by chipping off a small chunk on the edge.

Further inspection revealed that the cap connector/drive units that fit on top of the transmission, had slipped so far down the transmission shaft, that they were no longer engaged; just free-wheeling. Once they were pulled back up into position, they worked fine.

Realizing that the barrel should keep the drive unit in proper position, I had to look closer at the transmissions. And therein lies the problem. There is nothing to keep the transmission from sliding up into the cap/drive connector. As the client rotates the body to advance and retract the ink cartridge, the transmission can start to unscrew from the nib. Then during normal writing pressure or pressing the pen back through the leather loop that holds her pen, the transmission is gradually forced back up through the barrel and past the tension point inside the cap/drive unit, eventually rendering the writing instrument, now cheap pen, useless and requiring full disassembly.

Now I have to replace the barrel and reassemble the blasted thing. Not happy with these turn of events and will not continue to make and promote these pens, regardless of their popularity. I do not like it when a client has this type of experience with a $70 writing instrument because of a poor design. It makes me look like I sold her a piece of junk.

To have a $17 kit with such a design flaw, is inexcusable... and don't use the "just put some CA on the top of the transmission" fix routine. I can justify putting CA all over a $1.75 disposable Slimline (which ironically you will NEVER have to do)... but not a $17 Sierra.

My rant is over and so is the Sierra future in my world.

[}

]

1080Wayne · Mar 28, 2008

Dave You are not getting my day off to a good start . How long has your customer been using the pen ? Any idea of how much writing she would do ? One failure out of how many ? I don`t write much , but have used nothing but Sierra`s for the last year without a problem . My most popular (and profitable) pen . I will be very unhappy if they start coming back to me . Wayne

SuperDave · Mar 28, 2008

Wayne,

Two out of four that were used for Christmas gifts this past Christmas have the identical issue. They were used for casual writing, which only made me look even worse, as one would expect better more from light use.

I know a lot of people sell them and that they are popular. But when I sell someone on an instrument and extol the virtues of said instrument, only to have 50% of them develop the same problem, I cannot afford the bad rub on my reputation. I am removing the them from my web site post haste.

I am not encouraging anyone to drop them, just venting my frustrations associated with the more expensive kits that have definite design flaws. I focus on higher end sales and work to keep the perception, of quality associated with price, alive in the minds of the clients. I cannot afford returns due to what they consider poor workmanship and quality. It would be different if it were a repair due to something the client did to the unit... other than WRITE WITH IT!

Once I sell out all my remaining Non Sierra ballpoints (assuming I do not have to toss them like the Sierra's), I am going exclusively to fountain pens and rollerballs from the best and proven components currently available. At the same time, I am developing custom components for my own use, so the kits will become a moot point. I am grooming my client base for the new releases but it really stings when something like this happens.

Dave

Nolan · Mar 28, 2008

Could I please get more clarification? I am a little confused. If you had the trans come unscrewed why did you have to take it apart? The sierra pens I have you can just pull the nib section out. I just unscrewed one and pushed the trans section in so that I couldnt get ahold of it with the nib section, so I got a piece of tapered plastic (bic pen) and screwed it a quarter turn into trans section to get "ahold" of it then just pulled it out . I then screwed the trans back onto the nib section then it was as good as new. Are we talking about the same pen / problem?

Texatdurango · Mar 28, 2008

Dave, youâ€™ve got to post some photos of what you're talking about because I am totally stumped!

The Sierra has got to be hands down the simplest pen to turn, put together AND take apart!

Assembly:
1. Turn and finish the barrel
2. Press the clip end cap onto the barrel
3. Drop a refill into the front nib section
4. Screw the transmission into the front nib section
5. Slide the barrel onto the transmission
6 Done... that's it!

Disassembly:
1. Hold nib section and gently pull barrel off
2. Unscrew transmission from nib section
3. Remove refill
4. Doneâ€¦ thatâ€™s it!

With that in mind, I donâ€™t understand how this could happenâ€¦

"Disassembled the pens and damaged one of the acrylic barrels in the process by chipping off a small chunk on the edge."

And donâ€™t understand any of this at allâ€¦

"Further inspection revealed that the cap connector/drive units that fit on top of the transmission, had slipped so far down the transmission shaft, that they were no longer engaged; just free-wheeling. Once they were pulled back up into position, they worked fine."

Finally, just because you failed to wear green on St. Patricks day and had a bit of bad luck, is no excuse to make comments such as...

"I am not encouraging anyone to drop them, just venting my frustrations associated with the more expensive kits that have definite design flaws."

Design flaws!... come on Dave, hundreds of forum members making hundreds if not thousands of these simple pens and nary a peep, then all of a sudden two in a row... by one person?

Next year green like you are supposed too!

Russianwolf · Mar 28, 2008

one, there is simply no way for writing with the pen to push anything up. The tranny screws onto the nib, so the only way for it to move is by unscrewing it.

Looking at one that I have handy, I'm wagering that the client is over-rotating the pen when she is withdrawing the refill (unscrewing the tranny slightly) then pushing the barrel down to make it "fit" correctly. That's not a design flaw, that's a customer use flaw.

A solution would be to put some kind of spacer in the finial so that the tranny can't move up so far that it can diconnect from the threads.

A quicker solution would be to show the client what they are doing and correct it there. I had a client bring one back to me after two days saing it was falling apart. I showed her that she was unscrewwing the transmission by over-rotating it. She saw the error was on her and went away happy knowing that all she needed to do was tighten the tranny again if needed. (I showed her that the easiest way is to turn the barrrel a half turn extra when the refill is extended and it should be plenty tight)

If I'm wrong on my assessment of what problem you've encountered, then please clarify.

Mudder · Mar 28, 2008

Originally posted by Texatdurango

Assembly:
1. Turn and finish the barrel
2. Press the clip end cap onto the barrel
3. Drop a refill into the front nib section
4. Screw the transmission into the front nib section
5. Slide the barrel onto the transmission
6 Done... that's it!

Disassembly:
1. Hold nib section and gently pull barrel off
2. Unscrew transmission from nib section
3. Remove refill
4. Doneâ€¦ thatâ€™s it!

I have a feeling that I'm opening Pandora's box here but I'm going to give my 2 cents worth anyway.

What I have seen it that there are 2 schools of thought in the proper assembly and disassembly of a ballpoint pen. There are those who think it should unscrew into 2 pieces (IE. the twist mechanism stays in the tube) and those who feel it should come apart into 3 pieces. I happen to believe the latter and my conversations with the owner of Berea have led me to believe that was the intention of this pen.

I believe that there is a way that both schools of thought could be happy with this kit. If you believe that the pen should disassemble into 3 pieces then there is nothing that needs to be done but if you are one who believes that the pen should disassemble into 2 pieces then all you have to do is before you make the kit assemble the twist mechanism onto the nib assembly and put the finial / clip assembly on and take a measurement. Trim the tube to within 1/64" of that measurement and your problem should disappear.

I will not debate whether the kit is flawed or not but I will say that I have made and sold well over 150 of these pens and I have NEVER had one returned. Feel free to disagree with what I have said. I use what has proven to work for me.

gerryr · Mar 28, 2008

I had a customer who returned a Sierra for a similar problem. He had unscrewed the tip and when putting it back together he pushed the transmission in too far and the threads would no longer engage. Don't ask why he did that because I have no idea. I fixed it and put Locktite on the top of the transmission so he, hopefully, wouldn't be able to do it again.

pipeyeti · Mar 28, 2008

When I put the transmission on I snug it up with a pair of pliers(not torquing it,just snug)> Never have them unscrewing themselves. I also do this with cigar pens. Works for me.

ElMostro · Mar 28, 2008

Originally posted by gerryr

I had a customer who returned a Sierra for a similar problem. He had unscrewed the tip and when putting it back together he pushed the transmission in too far and the threads would no longer engage. Don't ask why he did that because I have no idea. I fixed it and put Locktite on the top of the transmission so he, hopefully, wouldn't be able to do it again.

What Gerry said. I fixed it and showed the customer the proper way to insert. BUT, I agree, the kit should have a built-in "something" to prevent this from happening bec although you can expaline to the customer what went wrong as far as the customer is concerened "it is still the pen's problem".[:I]

Eugene

Jarheaded · Mar 28, 2008

Sounds like a problem that can easily be fixed with a bit of duct tape and a hammer.

rlharding · Mar 28, 2008

George, in your point list you say that you 'unscrew the transmission from the nib section'. I have done 25 Sierra's and when I am testing them and get to changing the refill the transmission stays firmly stuck in the cap end. So I have the refill right there.

I also find that even though I screw the transmission in as finger tight as I can, a couple of test twists and the transmission screws off and it is stuck in the cap end. What I have done is added a few words on my card that tell my customer if the twist mechanism comes loose that they should simply retighten and take care not to over twist in the future.

Given we have over 5,000 members have we (IAP) ever approached a seller or manufacturer and told them the issues and that they should be corrected. Even several hundred not buying their product has to make a difference.

Same with plating quality, have we ever send the manufacturer a letter and talked about the poor quality and ask what will they do to improve it?

bradbn4 · Mar 28, 2008

I had that problem happen once with one of my Sierra pens that I just made.
I was just thinking now that a bit of hot glue in their would solve the problem + give it a bit if cushion to bite in to. I was playing with my first CA glue finish - the kit was a bit damaged - so I ended up giving it away.

The kit was from WoodCrafters - and there was a small blemish in the finish. The finish was fine for my first CA attempt.

Bradbn4 - Having fun in and away from Colorado

SuperDave · Mar 28, 2008

I think most of you understand exactly what I am referring to. For whatever reason, the transmission gets pushed up into the barrel so far you cannot remove it easily without some persuasion... hence the unintended damage to the barrel. Trust me, if I could have easily removed the parts... 1,2,3,... my post would have been a bit different.

Yes, it is an easy kit to make.
Yes the transmission can and does come unscrewed and works its way up the barrel.

Regardless, I cannot justify paying top dollar for a kit that requires loc-tite, hot glue, duct tape and hammer, and then an explanation to the customer that "you are twisting this $70 pen the wrong way, stupid." In fact, I would practically have to give less explanations to my fountain pen clients that buy a $180 instrument... because they work like a $180 instrument... as the client has a right to expect.

Eugene is correct, that anyway you slice it, the client expects a $70 pen to operate like a $70 pen and when it does not, any explanation is still going to come back as being the fault of the person that made it or the cheap components they used.

The whole point for me is:

Why spend $17 and use a wrench, various glues, and then a special card to tell your client that the $70 instrument has a problem and here is how you have to deal with it... and "thank you for your purchase."
I would not accept this from my lathe manufacturer, why shouldn't my client expect to pay $70 and only have to change refills?
I have no problem with anyone else making and selling a Sierra/Wall Street II and handling this issue as they feel is warranted in their situation. For me and my client base, I have a perception to maintain and that is why I spend top dollar on kits and price them accordingly. With that perception comes customer expectations and I have to do my best to manage these expectations and telling them that a $70 instrument has an issue that you have to handle a certain way is not maintaining the perception I want them to have.

Thanks for the responses, even yours TEX

I am glad to hear that others have had the same problem and that you have found a way to address it to your satisfaction, as have I.

Keep 'em round

[^]

Dave

gwilki · Mar 28, 2008

Dave
I agree that Berea seems to intend that the user pull the two pieces of the pen apart, then unscrew the transmission in order to replace the refill. Like you, I had a customer continue to turn the barrel after the refill was retracted and of course the pen came apart with the transmission in the upper part. Thankfully for me, he simply screwed it back together and he didn't force the transmission up into the top part of the barrel. Until he told me what happened, it hadn't occurred to me that it could.
I won't be discontinuing my Sierra's though. I simply permanently install the transmission in the top section of the barrel. It then operates much like my Mont Blanc ballpoint. You extend the refill by turning one way, and retract it by turning the other. If you keep on turning in that direction, the pen comes apart.

Randy_ · Mar 28, 2008

Originally posted by SuperDave

.....Regardless, I cannot justify paying top dollar for a kit that requires.....explanation to the customer that "you are twisting this $70 pen the wrong way.....

I wonder if you would advise a Porche dealer that he should quit selling his cars because several were returned with burned up transmissions and it turned out the new owners were driving the cars without using the clutch? Whether it is a $70 pen or a $70,000 car if you don't operate it properly, there are going to be problems.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion; but I think it unfair to declare the Sierra as a flawed design simply because you don't want to take the time to show your customers how to use it properly. I wonder if you would consider your $180 fountain pens flawed if a couple were returned, damaged, because the owner tried to put the ink cartridge in backward??

From what I see on this forum, the Sierra is a very popular kit and my own experience with the kit, while limited, is nothing but good. I think you will find you have a minority position and a very small one at that.

rlharding · Mar 28, 2008

Hey, why are we bashing Dave for expressing his opinion? If someone is used to using FP and ballpoints they become accustomed to how they are supposed to work. Find one that's different and 'something is wrong'. Do you think I like having to tell my clients how to use my High End Sierra's?

Why is it such a crime to expect that the makers and suppliers will sell a decent product.

When are we going to do something as a group to challenge shoddy product, not the people who expose a bad product?

SuperDave · Mar 28, 2008

Randy,

Thanks for the reply. Sorry you are missing or misconstruing the points. But your passion is deeply appreciated.

1. No one was advised to stop selling Sierras. In fact I made the opposite statement. It was, in fact, a choice I made for myself. Sorry my personal choice affected you in such a strong fashion.

2. Driving a $70,000 automobile without using the clutch is stupid, (unless it's an automatic

) not to mention that it would not burn up the transmission, but that is another topic for another day.

3. Twisting a twist pen as twist pens are designed to be twisted, and having the transmission work itself up the barrel, is not the same as using a $70,000 automobile in a way it was never intended to be used. Nice try though. Let me help you out here, if you don't mind. How about a $70,000 automobile that has the transmission lock up at 85MPH on the freeway and the clutch won't disengage the transmission? Now that analogy works for me!

Would the client be allowed to complain to the Porsche dealer because their expectations were not met?

4. You are correct that I am "certainly entitled to my opinion" though you seem to take umbrage to my expressing it, so maybe I am not entitled after all. I will have to reflect on that and get back to you.

5. How much time would you recommend is enough, to show a client how to twist a ballpoint pen properly? Followed by "if it becomes loose and no longer works, you twisted it wrong. Please take it apart and reassemble it and try not to twist it wrong."

6. There must be some basis in truth relative to the expressed, flawed design opinion, as several others have had the same issue and effectively addressed it in many different fashions. Sometimes one learns to accept the flaws as coming with the territory and other times one decides it is unacceptable. You are more than welcome to live with it, as I am to live without it.

7. My $180 fountain pen would not be returned, because a cartridge cannot be installed backward. Maybe upside down[}

], but certainly not backward.

8. I agree with you that the Sierra is indeed a very popular pen and I predict that it will continue to be, but that is just my expressed opinion.

9. I am not seeking a majority opinion. But given the number of responses from members, whose opinions I value and respect, that have had the same issues, I suspect that the position is a bit bigger than you estimate... but has not been discussed until now. That's what these forums are about... in my expressed opinion.

Thanks again Randy and keep those posts coming!

DCBluesman · Mar 28, 2008

Dave and others - The problem cannot have occurred in the manner described. I just went through every measurement and it simply is not possible.

You see, the threads that hold the transmission unit in place will only extend approximately 2.31 mm before the threads disengage completely, thus the unit cannot be further jammed up into the cap unit. The play in that area is approximately 4.73 mm. The transmission unit would, by necessity, have to be jamed up into the cap unit by more than 4.73 mm before the transmission would not engage. I offer a different scenario of the conditions that lead to the failure.

If the transmission was unscrewed from the nib section, which is very possible in a twist mechanism which is screwed together, the customer separated the upper section from the lower by unscrewing the pieces completely. In putting the two pieces back together, the top of the refill was not fully and properly seated in the top section. At that point, the pen could not be compressed sufficiently to engage the threads for reassembly. Rather than rotate the refill until it fully seated, the client forced the sections together, thus pushing the transmission more than 4.73 mm into the cap section, thus bypassing the grip/actuation area. This is why the barrel then rotated freely without engaging the transmission to raise and lower the refill.

Design fault or customer error? I don't know. I do know that if you teach your clients to pull off the top to replace the refill, this problem cannot and will not occur. Can customers botch up a pen without a design flaw? You bet! I have had a customer strip the threads of a roller ball pen by deciding that my screw caps must be snap caps. But with a little self-education and a little customer education, this problem can be avoided 100% of the time.

Randy_ · Mar 29, 2008

I'm not bashing Dave's opinion and I really don't see that anyone else is either. All I did was express an opinion that I didn't agree with Dave's thinking. I think alternative opinions are still permitted, last I checked.

In fact I am actually happy that Dave did make his post. I don't agree with his analysis; but it serves a as good reminder to Sierra sellers and in fact, to all sellers, that they need to take a minute and show their clients how to operate their products. I suspect most of us take the operation of our products for granted and maybe under emphasize customer education a little.

rlharding · Mar 29, 2008

Lou,
sorry, but when I tested my Sierra's the transmission was indeed stuck in the cap section. I can NOT get it out without ruining it. I can pull off the top of almost all (8?) of my last 10 Sierra's that I did all this week - each and every one will have the transmission stuck in the cap.

Randy_ · Mar 29, 2008

Originally posted by DCBluesman

Dave and others - The problem cannot have occurred in the manner described. I just went through every measurement and it simply is not possible.....

Excellent analysis, Lou!!

Nolan · Mar 29, 2008

Originally posted by rlharding

Lou,
sorry, but when I tested my Sierra's the transmission was indeed stuck in the cap section. I can NOT get it out without ruining it. I can pull off the top of almost all (8?) of my last 10 Sierra's that I did all this week - each and every one will have the transmission stuck in the cap.

Ruth try like I posted and get a bic pen and quarter turn it into the trans section till it grabs then pull the trans out. There is no need to ruin the pen unless you just want to. I did this exact thing on purpose trying to figure out the original post.

rlharding · Mar 29, 2008

Thanks Nolan....now I have to go out and buy a bic

Randy_ · Mar 29, 2008

Originally posted by Mudder

.....I believe that there is a way that both schools of thought could be happy with this kit. If you believe that the pen should disassemble into 3 pieces then there is nothing that needs to be done but if you are one who believes that the pen should disassemble into 2 pieces then all you have to do is before you make the kit assemble the twist mechanism onto the nib assembly and put the finial / clip assembly on and take a measurement. Trim the tube to within 1/64" of that measurement and your problem should disappear.....

Scott: If I understand you correctly, you want to shorten the tube so the transmission is inserted into the finial to its full depth less 1/64" for clearance. That won't work, unfortunately; because when the transmission is pushed into the finial that far the finial will no longer grip the transmission and be able to turn it. If I have misunderstood what you are suggesting, maybe you could add a detail or two so your idea will sink into my thick skull.

Randy_ · Mar 29, 2008

Originally posted by n4631x

Could I please get more clarification? I am a little confused. If you had the trans come unscrewed why did you have to take it apart? The sierra pens I have you can just pull the nib section out. I just unscrewed one and pushed the trans section in so that I couldnt get ahold of it with the nib section, so I got a piece of tapered plastic (bic pen) and screwed it a quarter turn into trans section to get "ahold" of it then just pulled it out . I then screwed the trans back onto the nib section then it was as good as new. Are we talking about the same pen / problem.....

Nolan: This must be a bad night for me. I didn't get Mudder's explanation and now I am not getting yours. I don't quite see how you are using the piece of plastic to grasp the transmission and pull it out of the barrel? Are you somehow grabbing the threads of the transmission? The inside of that end of the transmission is smooth so I don't see how you could be gripping the transmissino from the inside. Thanks. This will be very helpful to Ruth since she seems to have a lot of pens with this problem.

Randy_ · Mar 29, 2008

Originally posted by rlharding

Lou,
sorry, but when I tested my Sierra's the transmission was indeed stuck in the cap section. I can NOT get it out without ruining it. I can pull off the top of almost all (8?) of my last 10 Sierra's that I did all this week - each and every one will have the transmission stuck in the cap.

Ruth: You and Lou are talking about two different issues. You are certainly correct in saying that the transmission gets stuck in the cap when you unscrew the cap rather than pulling it straight off. The end of the transmission is recessed about 3/8" and not real easy to grasp so you can pull it out. Nolan's idea apparently works for him; but I don't quite understand how. I hope he will get back to us with a more detailed explanation as it would be an easy and economical solution. Another alternative would be to use a broken screw extractor......I call them E-Z Outs. Here is what they look like.

As for Lou's comment, he is not saying the transmissions can't get stuck in the caps. What he is saying is that, in the situation described, they can not get shoved so far into the cap that it will no longer grip the transmission and just spins loosely without being able to drive the transmission. His point being that for the transmission to get to that point it must me shoved almost 5 mm beyond its normal position while totally unscrewing the transmission from the "nib" end can push the transmission no more that 2.3 mm so there is some other explanation for the transmission being pushed so far into the cap. To put it another way, when you unscrew the cap, the transmission will be recessed in the cap by about 5/16". But before you reach the situation described by Dave where the cap no longer grips the transmission, the transmission must be pushed into the cap an additional 1/10". It is that additional 1/10" of movement that Lou is trying to account for as it can't happen by just unscrewing the cap.

DCBluesman · Mar 29, 2008

Originally posted by Randy_

As for Lou's comment, he is not saying the transmissions can't get stuck in the caps. What he is saying is that, in the situation described, they can not get shoved so far into the cap that it will no longer grip the transmission and just spins loosely without being able to drive the transmission. His point being that for the transmission to get to that point it must me shoved almost 5 mm beyond its normal position while totally unscrewing the transmission from the "nib" end can push the transmission no more that 2.3 mm so there is some other explanation for the transmission being pushed so far into the cap.

Your interpretation is correct, Randy. The other thing that I am saying is that there is a fool-proof method for replacing the refill.

Separate the upper and lower sections of the Sierra by pulling them apart. Unscrew the transmission from the nib section. Remove the used refill. Place a new refill in the nib section. Fit the transmission over the refill, being sure that it fully seats. This may take a little twist or wiggle. The transmission should them comfortably compress the spring before the threads engage. It should not take any significant pressure. Screw the transmission in firmly. Press the cap back onto the nib/transmission assembly.

This is not rocket science. If done correctly, you CANNOT jam the transmission too far into the cap assembly. If you do not believe this, try it with JUST THE COMPONENTS. You will see the pieces and it will become obvious that this is the safest way to insure that the issue does not occur.

Mudder · Mar 29, 2008

Originally posted by DCBluesman

If the transmission was unscrewed from the nib section, which is very possible in a twist mechanism which is screwed together, the customer separated the upper section from the lower by unscrewing the pieces completely. In putting the two pieces back together, the top of the refill was not fully and properly seated in the top section. At that point, the pen could not be compressed sufficiently to engage the threads for reassembly. Rather than rotate the refill until it fully seated, the client forced the sections together, thus pushing the transmission more than 4.73 mm into the cap section, thus bypassing the grip/actuation area. This is why the barrel then rotated freely without engaging the transmission to raise and lower the refill.

Dave,

Given Lou's analogy I do not see where the customer could have brought back anything but a handful of pieces, Please clarify.

Mudder · Mar 29, 2008

Originally posted by Randy_

Originally posted by Mudder

.....I believe that there is a way that both schools of thought could be happy with this kit. If you believe that the pen should disassemble into 3 pieces then there is nothing that needs to be done but if you are one who believes that the pen should disassemble into 2 pieces then all you have to do is before you make the kit assemble the twist mechanism onto the nib assembly and put the finial / clip assembly on and take a measurement. Trim the tube to within 1/64" of that measurement and your problem should disappear.....

Click to expand...

Scott: If I understand you correctly, you want to shorten the tube so the transmission is inserted into the finial to its full depth less 1/64" for clearance. That won't work, unfortunately; because when the transmission is pushed into the finial that far the finial will no longer grip the transmission and be able to turn it. If I have misunderstood what you are suggesting, maybe you could add a detail or two so your idea will sink into my thick skull.

In my continued experimentation with the Sierra pencil I have found that the newer kits differ from the older kits in at least 2 area's. I'm pretty sure that this is due to tolerance issues.

The tubes for the Sierra that I have measured run from 2.205" to 2.210" with the majority running 2.206"-2.207". I have one customer who absolutely loves the size and feel of the Sierra but she is elderly and does not have the strength to pull the pen apart to replace the refill using the instructions that I have provided so I made her a pen that she could untwist the pen into two pieces to replace the refill. What I did was to shorten the tube to 2.050".

She's been using this pen since December of 2005 and she tells me that she goes through a refill about once every 4 months. So far she has had no problems at all with this pen. This works for me, It may not work for others.

CSue · Mar 29, 2008

I haven't been making pens that long. But I've made well over 100 Sierras. A few months ago I decided to get one of the new, expensive kits and make one for myself.

In about 3-4 weeks of use . . . not doing anything with it but twist the writing point in and out to write, I found myself with a pen that didn't "twist" anymore. Sounds like Dave's customer had exactly the same problem.

Frustrated to the MAX, I took it apart and put it in a regular chrome kit sierra. No problems since.

Now, while Lou's explanation is plausible, it was not the case with my pen. Since putting it together, all I did was twist it in and out to write and not write - oh, and then write with it (daily.)

Dave's explanation fits my situation to a tee. Just the advance and retracttion of the ink cartridge

gradually forced back up through the barrel and past the tension point inside the cap/drive unit, eventually rendering the writing instrument, now cheap pen, useless and requiring full disassembly.

I am really hesitant now to make sierra pens with the new (more expensive) metal designs. I will, however, continue to make those Sierra kits I've always used.

How many other people are walking around with one of those that "defected" and haven't said anything?

KenV · Mar 29, 2008

It is really hard to make things "fool proof". Fools can be so inventive.......

Nolan · Mar 29, 2008

Originally posted by Randy_

Originally posted by n4631x

Could I please get more clarification? I am a little confused. If you had the trans come unscrewed why did you have to take it apart? The sierra pens I have you can just pull the nib section out. I just unscrewed one and pushed the trans section in so that I couldnt get ahold of it with the nib section, so I got a piece of tapered plastic (bic pen) and screwed it a quarter turn into trans section to get "ahold" of it then just pulled it out . I then screwed the trans back onto the nib section then it was as good as new. Are we talking about the same pen / problem.....

Click to expand...

Nolan: This must be a bad night for me. I didn't get Mudder's explanation and now I am not getting yours. I don't quite see how you are using the piece of plastic to grasp the transmission and pull it out of the barrel? Are you somehow grabbing the threads of the transmission? The inside of that end of the transmission is smooth so I don't see how you could be gripping the transmissino from the inside. Thanks. This will be very helpful to Ruth since she seems to have a lot of pens with this problem.

Randy I think Lou has done the best at putting this into words, I only did my experiment cuz I was trying to understand the possible problem. Like the easy-outs you posted I used a plastic pen to lock into the stuck piece so it could be pulled out. I did this so as to not hurt the pen parts. I sell lots of these and just wanted to get clarification on the issue, I feel this is something that with a little education to the customer and it wouldnt be an issue.

Randy_ · Mar 29, 2008

Originally posted by DCBluesman

.....Your interpretation is correct, Randy. The other thing that I am saying is that there is a fool-proof method for replacing the refill......

I'm not sure your method is fool-proof, Lou; but, certainly, it would eliminate 99% of the problems.

Originally posted by DCBluesman

.....This is not rocket science......

The other point worth making is that Lou's suggestion of pulling the cap rather than unscrewing it should not be a foreign concept to most folks. You have to "PULL" the cap to change the refill in Cross and slimline pens.

bitshird · Mar 29, 2008

Originally posted by SuperDave

... seems that the transmissions would no longer extend the ink refill but just spin round and round.

Disassembled the pens and damaged one of the acrylic barrels in the process by chipping off a small chunk on the edge.

Further inspection revealed that the cap connector/drive units that fit on top of the transmission, had slipped so far down the transmission shaft, that they were no longer engaged; just free-wheeling. Once they were pulled back up into position, they worked fine.

Realizing that the barrel should keep the drive unit in proper position, I had to look closer at the transmissions. And therein lies the problem. There is nothing to keep the transmission from sliding up into the cap/drive connector. As the client rotates the body to advance and retract the ink cartridge, the transmission can start to unscrew from the nib. Then during normal writing pressure or pressing the pen back through the leather loop that holds her pen, the transmission is gradually forced back up through the barrel and past the tension point inside the cap/drive unit, eventually rendering the writing instrument, now cheap pen, useless and requiring full disassembly.

Now I have to replace the barrel and reassemble the blasted thing. Not happy with these turn of events and will not continue to make and promote these pens, regardless of their popularity. I do not like it when a client has this type of experience with a $70 writing instrument because of a poor design. It makes me look like I sold her a piece of junk.

To have a $17 kit with such a design flaw, is inexcusable... and don't use the "just put some CA on the top of the transmission" fix routine. I can justify putting CA all over a $1.75 disposable Slimline (which ironically you will NEVER have to do)... but not a $17 Sierra.

My rant is over and so is the Sierra future in my world.[}]

Dave, I had the same thing happen to the first Sierra I sold, TWO DAYS after I sold it, I found the best solution for me was to tighten the transmission to the end of the nib section not so tight as to damage the threads but snug enough that it wont unscrew either.used a very small pair of channel lock pliers about 2-1/2 inches long.
It's a shame that a pen that looks that good has a design flaw but look at it this way, if you do tighten it up good, and it stays in place Toss out the kit refill, put in a good gel refill it will last several years under normal use then the customer comes back to you and you replace the refill and make another 3.00 profit

[B)]

bitshird · Mar 29, 2008

By the way I also had a fit getting the transmission out of the barrel, I'm not ready to giv up on Sierras, they are the easiest pen to make, and they sell well, I do like the pen trick, I used a piece of UHMW to get the tranny out,

Randy_ · Mar 29, 2008

Originally posted by Mudder

.....In my continued experimentation with the Sierra pencil I have found that the newer kits differ from the older kits in at least 2 area's. I'm pretty sure that this is due to tolerance issues....

Scott: You said one difference between the new and the old Sierras is the tube length. What is the other?

Originally posted by Mudder

.....The tubes for the Sierra that I have measured run from 2.205" to 2.210" with the majority running 2.206"-2.207".

I have a half dozen or so of the older kits and they all measure 2.208"-2.210".

Originally posted by Mudder

.....I have one customer who absolutely loves the size and feel of the Sierra but she is elderly and does not have the strength to pull the pen apart to replace the refill using the instructions that I have provided so I made her a pen that she could untwist the pen into two pieces to replace the refill. What I did was to shorten the tube to 2.050".

That is very interesting!! If I have interpreted correctly "HOW" Lou measured his Sierras, that should put the transmission so far into the finial that grip should be lost and the cap should spin without activating the transmission. I wonder if the finial on the newer Sierras is different as well. Guess I need to get out the vernier and make a few more measurements to see if I can resolve this apparent conflict. (Note: I'm not questioning the accuracy of Lou's measurements; but I may not be correctly interpreting how they actually relate to the pen.)

Randy_ · Mar 29, 2008

Originally posted by CSue

.....In about 3-4 weeks of use . . . not doing anything with it but twist the writing point in and out to write, I found myself with a pen that didn't "twist" anymore. Sounds like Dave's customer had exactly the same problem......

Dave's explanation fits my situation to a tee.......

Actually, that is not quite correct, Sue. If you will notice, Dave said when he pulled out the transmission a little so it was not seated so deeply in the cap that it worked just fine. You said your cap just spins when the transmission is properly seated. It sounds like you have a defective transmission with one of two possible problems. Either something has failed inside the transmission so it spins without activating the refill or the transmission barrel has been compressed enough (diameter reduced) so it no longer fits in the cap tightly enough for the cap to activate the mechanism. Your problem sounds very much like what happens occasionally to transmissions in the slimline pens.

When you changed to a new transmission the pen worked OK. Dave did not have to install a new transmission....all he had to do is reposition the transmission so it properly engaged the cap.

Randy_ · Mar 29, 2008

Nolan: Thanks for the picture. Great idea!! I would never have dreamed that you could grab the smooth interior of the transmission in that fashion; but, obviously, you can. You learn something new here every day.

SuperDave · Mar 29, 2008

Originally posted by Randy_

Originally posted by CSue

.....In about 3-4 weeks of use . . . not doing anything with it but twist the writing point in and out to write, I found myself with a pen that didn't "twist" anymore. Sounds like Dave's customer had exactly the same problem......

Dave's explanation fits my situation to a tee.......

Click to expand...

Actually, that is not quite correct, Sue. If you will notice, Dave said when he pulled out the transmission a little so it was not seated so deeply in the cap that it worked just fine.

Dude, get a grip! Just where did I make this statement??[}]

You said your cap just spins when the transmission is properly seated. It sounds like you have a defective transmission with one of two possible problems. Either something has failed inside the transmission so it spins without activating the refill or the transmission barrel has been compressed enough (diameter reduced) so it no longer fits in the cap tightly enough for the cap to activate the mechanism. Your problem sounds very much like what happens occasionally to transmissions in the slimline pens.

When you changed to a new transmission the pen worked OK. Dave did not have to install a new transmission....all he had to do is reposition the transmission so it properly engaged the cap. What!!!??? Where do you come up with these "facts"???

Actually, that is quite correct Sue. As I stated:

"Further inspection revealed that the cap connector/drive units that fit on top of the transmission, had slipped so far down the transmission shaft, that they were no longer engaged; just free-wheeling. Once they were pulled back up into position, they worked fine."

1. No where did I say that I pulled out the transmission a little...[}

]
2. ALL I HAD TO DO WAS PULL THE CAP/DRIVE UNIT BACK ON TOP OF THE TRANSMISSION TO GET IT TO WORK PROPERLY![}

]
3. Randy, do you always speak for other people and get your facts screwed up this bad?[}

]
4. Dude, you are trying way too hard to redeem yourself and looking like a [

)] in the process. If you cannot get your facts straight and make accurate quotes, you have absolutely no business speaking on behalf of other people, especially me. So do me a big personal favor and speak only for yourself... PLEASE!

Sierras Returned for Repair...

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