Best Solution for stabilization?

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BigguyZ

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OK, I just recently bought a cheap GAST pump from eBay, and started doing some stabilization. I first tried a home made brew of a Acetone- Plexi solution. That seemed to go well, but if I put too much a vacuum on it the Acetone would boil.

What's the preferred solution to stabilize, and when doing so, how long do you keep in a vacuum? The container I used didn't seem to want to keep a vacuum very well, so I'm looking at getting a HF pressure pot (I've been looking for these on sale, but no dice... :( ).

Is there a good primer/ intro/ article on stabilizing your own blanks?

Thanks!
 
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rjwolfe3

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Ultraseal makes an excellent product but its very expensive. I hear Minwax Wood Hardener works well but have never used it. Other then that, others would have to chime in.
 

joeatact

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I have used Minwax Wood Hardener it does ok but I found Acetone- Plexi solution works better for me especially for corn cobs. I pull a vaccum for a while no problems. I did hear though that the acetone fumes will eat up the seals in the pump
 

Rifleman1776

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#1: I didn't know there were any "cheap" Gast pumps. They are quality items.
The "boil" is from air escaping out of the wood that is being replaced by your stable solution.
My Gast pump has filters on it. I'm hoping that the fumes won't eat up the seals with the filters in place.
It is my understanding tha Min Wax hardener is simply acetone with plexi dissolved in it.
Myself, and others, participated in testing and reviewing Ultraseal. Do a search here and read about the product.
 

KenV

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Frank -- as pressure is reduced the boiling poiint (liquid to vapor) temperature is reduced. Acetone vaporizes easily and at lower pressure will boil off. It is possible to pulle some gases out of the wood, and at lowered pressure, to "boil out" some of the moisture in the wood but Ficks Law will work --

the boiling of solvents at lower pressure is why the wood treatment industy predominatly uses "pressure treatments" (though they do use a mix of techniques with empty cell methods where after fulling the wood with preservatives, they suck out a lot of it to decrease the bleeding).

The more volitile the solvents, the lower the boiling point -- Naptha and acetone have low temperatures of vaporization and will boil off easily.
 

BigguyZ

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#1: I didn't know there were any "cheap" Gast pumps. They are quality items.
The "boil" is from air escaping out of the wood that is being replaced by your stable solution.
My Gast pump has filters on it. I'm hoping that the fumes won't eat up the seals with the filters in place.
It is my understanding tha Min Wax hardener is simply acetone with plexi dissolved in it.
Myself, and others, participated in testing and reviewing Ultraseal. Do a search here and read about the product.

It was a used pump from eBay. $60 shipped is pretty cheap, IMHO. But I do know they are a quality product! Not a 5 CFM model or anything, but it'll work for mostly what I want to do.

Buyt the bubbles are definitely the acetone boiling. I tested the container with only the solution- no wood- and it was clearly boiling. As pressure decreases, the temperature at which a liuid will boil also decreases. So the pressure get's so low (about 28" of HG) that the acetone literally boils.

I had a filter, but it doesn't get everything. The fumes eventually condense and spit out the exhaust! I will run the pump with nothing attached afterwards to "Purge" the acetone fumes, but I'm still concerned about wear to the pump.

Did the ultraseal work well?

BTW, I have heard that the home brew acetone + plexi is the same thing as wood hardener, just a whole lot cheaper! But another option I've heard of is using a 50/50 mixture of white wood glue and water. Not sure how well that'd work, but I have seen a few positive remarks about it.

Anyways, I intend on trying a few options out, but wanted your thoughts as well. So far, I've heard of using the wood hardener (either Minwax of home brew), polyurethane, woodglue/water, and ultraseal... Anything else?
 

Rifleman1776

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OK, I larned sumptin'. Acetone 'boils' under a vacuum. I use a paint pot that I can't see through.
Glad ye got a bargain on the Gast.
Now, you have me worried about ruining my Gast. Oh, well, I'll just run it until it stops working right then will get rebuilt. I will purge after uses though.
The white glue and water idea is intriguing. Could be expensive to experiment with, though.
 

RHossack

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The white glue and water idea is intriguing. Could be expensive to experiment with, though.
naw ... it's pretty cheap ...

Pardon the rust on my new-to-me $100 scroll saw ...

I think I paid $3 or $4 for the white glue, the water is free and the pickle jar was $3. I bought the brass fittings at HF except the 'T' and the check valve is from ACE.

picklejar001800.jpg


I used J-B Kwick on the threads and did a quick pull and can get 20" of vacuum even with it leaking air around the rubber hose.

vc003800.jpg


This also boils, or I call it foams as the solution is pulled into the wood and takes about 15 minutes.

I'm building a new fancy rig for an article I'm writing for a bamboo rod publication with a large wide mouth jar I picked up at Target that I can place a smaller jar into this and just use a lot less glue + water to get the job done.

For this I'm using a 12v Tire Pump that I picked up at the local thrift store for $2 and converted it from a compressor into a vacuum machine.

The only downside I've discovered is that:

1 - if the 12v tire pump isn't continuance duty it does get hot.

2 - First time I tried it I opened the wifes trunk, put it in there and closed the lid after I turned it on to test it at 2AM. This thing was noisy enough to set off the car alarm :eek:
 

Rifleman1776

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I'm in the process of a test with white glue right now.
I used Probond in water. The glue was less than 50%.
I put two pieces of spalted, partly spunky, maple in the solution and pulled 23 inches for about 20 minutes. At the end, it did not appear that much solution had been consumed by the wood. The pieces are drying right now.
Tomorrow, I'll cut into them to see what happened.
I have an initial feeling that the solution was too thick and that around 25% would work better.
My "expensive" comment came from the fact that, if I adopt this method, I will have to buy the white glue by the gallon.
But, if it is a good stable method, I would prefer because it is not a volatile solvent.
 

RHossack

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I'm in the process of a test with white glue right now.
I used Probond in water. The glue was less than 50%.
I said 50% but I was using the eyeball method of measuring and I used Gorilla glue because it was 'white' and outdated so got it cheaper.

I got this idea from Russ Fairfield when he did a demo at our pen club meeting and showed us how he did it ...

Also wonder if there is a different viscosity between glues?
I put two pieces of spalted, partly spunky, maple in the solution and pulled 23 inches for about 20 minutes. At the end, it did not appear that much solution had been consumed by the wood. The pieces are drying right now.
Tomorrow, I'll cut into them to see what happened.
I didn't use a stopwatch either just guessed. I let it go until it stops foaming.
I have an initial feeling that the solution was too thick and that around 25% would work better.
That may be true ... I have some spalted and cracked ash and russian olive I'll do this weekend to see how it does.
My "expensive" comment came from the fact that, if I adopt this method, I will have to buy the white glue by the gallon.
But, if it is a good stable method, I would prefer because it is not a volatile solvent.
Understand ...

Now this should be said that it stabilizes to the point where I can turn the wood without blowouts and not as a finished product ... still need to use CA or whatever your favorite method of finishing is ...
 

RDH79

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Im useing the Min wax right now. 2 bottles $18.00 I think there 12 oz cans not sure. I have 16 very dry and soft barn board blanks in a vaccumn. As I was pouring the minwax on the blanks i could hear it sucking it in. Comes out to a buck a blank. Hope it works. Rich H.
 

ElMostro

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I posted this a while back but it applies to your question so here it is again.
Eugene.

Disclaimer: I am not an expert, these are techniques that I use and work for what I do, there are likely better (read more expensive) ways to stabilize wood out there so this list is not all inclusive. First I will give you my definition of "stabilizing wood" for pen turning. "To take a piece of wood that is too soft in its current state and and harden it (stabilize it) in order to make it turnable.

METHOD 1: (the simplest). Use Minwax wood hardener. Pour a can of Minwax Wood Hardener in a glass jar big enough so that a normal pen blank (aprox 3/4" x 3/4" x 5 1/2") can lay flat. Drop the blanks in the jar and close lid tightly. Wait until blanks sink plus one day then take out and let dry. The Minwax will saturate the blank and harden the fibers. It will not fill wormholes or repair cracks. Depending on the type of wood this can take from 2-5 days and drying will also take a few days. (DO NOT PUT IT IN A TOASTER OVEN TO SPEED UP DRYING...unless you like to turn burnt wood...DAMHIKT)

METHOD 1A:If you want to speed it up you can place a weight (do not use a wood block bec it will absorb the hardener) on top of the blanks so that they do not float. Make sure the liquid completely covers the blank and follow steps above.

METHOD 1B: If you want to speed it up more and plan on doing this for many blanks you can set up a paint pressure pot and apply pressure to the blanks while submerged in the hardener. This is what I do and apply 80 psi for about 24 hours and by then the blanks have sunk. (I tried vacuum once but it foams up and wastes most of the liquid AND over time the acetone will destroy the rubber parts in the pump)

Method 2: Requires Acetone, acrylic (Plexiglas) air compressor and a paint pressure pot . Make sure it is acrylic because if not it will not work. Pour the acetone in a tall mason jar about half full. Cut the Plexiglas in 1" squares. I use a bolt cutter for this just make sure you have eye protection bec the plexiglas has a tendency shoot out when it cracks. Put the pieces of Plexiglas in the acetone jar and close tightly (acetone evaporates very quickly). Sit jar on a shelf out of the way and shake it every 4-5 hours. Depending on the quantity of Plexiglas and acetone it may take a few days to dissolve into a syrup like slurry. Take another jar like the one from the minwax method and pour the slurry in the jar. If you have a clump at the bottom of the mason jar leave it there and pour more acetone in it. Set it on a shelf and shake it at least twice a day. Keep repeating this until the Plexiglas is completely dissolved and transferred to the larger jar. Make enough so that the large jar is no more than half way full but full enough to cover the blanks if submerged. The final solution should have the consistency of water. Once the solution is ready put the blanks you want to stabilize in the mixture, weigh then down with something so they stay submerged put the whole thing in the pressure pot put the lid on as per instructions and apply pressure. Again I apply 80 PSI. Apply pressure for about 12 hours then release it, let stand for several hours then apply pressure again. I do this about 4 or five times over a 3-4 day period. After doing this several times release the air, open the pot and take out the blanks and set them out side to dry. Do not stack them on each other bec they will stick. The acetone evaporates and the dissolved acrylic hardens inside the wood fibers. One additional benefit is that wood treated like this is easier to turn and finishes easier. You can use vacuum BUT remember that acetone disolves rubber so unless you have a filter on the vac pump the acetone fumes may damage the rubber in the pump)

Method 3: Requires Mineral Spirits, oil base poly, air compressor and a paint pressure pot. Make a 50/50 mix of poly and mineral spirits. Again, not more than 1/2 full for the large glass jar. Follow the directions above for the plexi-tone, the method is the same but the mixture is what is different.

Method 4: Requires Allumilite, air compressor and a paint pressure pot. This falls more under "casting" VS stabilizing but is a method I copied from Curtis and use for blanks with cracks, holes, and missing chunks of wood. Mesquiteman (Curtis) covers it very well, see link.
http://builtbydoc.com/WorthlessWoodBlanks.pdf

As others have mentioned Ultraseal also works very well.

Then you can always send your stuff out to be professionally stabilized, big machines do the same thing as above but the liquids are different and under a lot more pressure with the final stage being that they "cook" the blanks which some times distorts them. The price is about $10-15 per pound with a minimum number of pounds required. You send them 5 pound of wood they treat it and weight it then they charge you by the pound. So 5 pounds of punky dry wood can weigh 15 pounds by the time they get done with it. Yea, I know what you are thinking...that is why I use the methods above.

And Finally ""Caution""; Do this only in a WELL VENTILATED area (out doors) and use eye and breathing protection, in addition to gloves AND don't smoke. All of these chemicals release vapors that are bad for your lungs and eyes and are flammable. Safety first!

Again; This is the way I do it, it works for me but may not work for you.

El Mostro
 

KenV

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White (Elmers) glue and water is an old turners trick -- I learned it for two purposes .

One was to deal with checks that appear on end grain as the water swelled the wood and the glue held the crack closed. The other use was to add solids to soft spots on turnings like bowls. The soak in solution method was used (before pressure pots). Penetration was variable, but about 1/4 inch is what I could reliably get.

Have also painted it on surfaces that need some "structure" to cut smoothly.

The water mix causes the glue viscosity to drop and it penetrates better -- bad news is that a bunch of water needs to be subsequently removed for stability.

I have some punky birch and have been meaning to do that with 90 pounds in the pressure pot to see if the extra penetration will work. Have had other distractions like work and wiring 220 for a new lathe and have not gotten to that.

Cost is low -- a gallon of white glue is under $10 here at the end of the world.
 

Rifleman1776

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El Mostro, thank you for your post, it is loaded with useful information.
At this point, I believe I will be using the plexi in acetone method under vacuum. My Gast does have filters.
I tried the white glue in a test and, even though I got complete penetration, the result was not what I would call 'stabilization'. The wood remained soft, I think it would be like trying to turn chewing gum. Not for me.
 

Rifleman1776

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Dear El:
Another question or two.
As said, I plan to use the plexi and acetone with vacuum.
#1) What I plan to do is mix it up right in the paint pot and leave there between uses. This will be about 1 1/2 to 2 gallons of solution.
#2) Instead of weighing down the blanks, I was just going to let float on the theory that as they absorbed solution they would sink and then all would be 'wet' and get impregnated. Also, the vacuum is trying to pull the air out of the cells even though they are not submerged and would draw up solution causing them to both sink and get soaked.
Do you see a problem with idea #1?
Do you agree/disagree with theory in #2?
Frank

p.s. I have use a professional service. I used one that is highly regarded here with varying results. One batch did not appear to have been stabled at all. They agreed to redo but still, after second go around they didn't look or feel any different.
 

RHossack

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I tried the white glue in a test and, even though I got complete penetration, the result was not what I would call 'stabilization'. The wood remained soft, I think it would be like trying to turn chewing gum. Not for me.

Soft, chewing gum???? Did you let it dry? I've not found that. I set them aside for a dew days or stick them in my wood dryer ...

What I wrote above ...
Now this should be said that it stabilizes to the point where I can turn the wood without blowouts and not as a finished product ... still need to use CA or whatever your favorite method of finishing is ...

This was my goal ... and the white glue accomplished that for me ...
 

ElMostro

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Dear El:
Another question or two.
As said, I plan to use the plexi and acetone with vacuum.
#1) What I plan to do is mix it up right in the paint pot and leave there between uses. This will be about 1 1/2 to 2 gallons of solution.
#2) Instead of weighing down the blanks, I was just going to let float on the theory that as they absorbed solution they would sink and then all would be 'wet' and get impregnated. Also, the vacuum is trying to pull the air out of the cells even though they are not submerged and would draw up solution causing them to both sink and get soaked.
Do you see a problem with idea #1?
Do you agree/disagree with theory in #2?
Frank


p.s. I have use a professional service. I used one that is highly regarded here with varying results. One batch did not appear to have been stabled at all. They agreed to redo but still, after second go around they didn't look or feel any different.


Frank,

#1, putting the solution directly in the pot would work but too messy for me. What I use is a glass jar I bought at hobby lobby It is kind of square and has a metal lid. I can fit 7/8 x 5 1/2" blanks flat. I can fit 3 or 4 layers of blanks with only about 1 quart of solution required. Just make sure the blanks stay fully covered with the solution since after the first cycle some of the solution will penetrate the blanks the level of liquid will be lower. (I am on the raod right now but once I am back home I can send a picture of the jar) or this one is pretty close:

http://happiestmommies.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/51qak6kl-l-_aa260_.jpg

By using this I don't get the pot dirty and since you would have to mix the mixture (that sound funny) it is a lot easier to seal the jar and shake...(just the way I do it).

#2 by applying pressure and then releasing it it creats a sorta vacuum effect, what I mean is this, put the blanks in the solution and apply pressure for a couple of hours, then release the pressure (SLOWLY) and open the lid and look at te blanks. You will see a lot of tiny bubbles (almost a foaming effect) coming from the blanks, all that air is being replaced by the solution so its kind of vacuum in reverse. Then by doing this several time the blank will be cpmpletely saturated. If you want to test just campare the amot of foaming when you do it the first time with the amout of foaming after several cycle...you will note the the later cycles foam a lt less. And finally you can let the blanks float but by weighing then down it cuts the tme involved (I am always in a hurry :) )

Hope this helps, Eugene.
 
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