Schmidt Cartridge Rollerball

[alphageek]

This review is going to focus on the Schmidt Cartridge Rollerball and how it works with an existing Jr Gent II Kit. I won't be focusing on the writing capabilities because with my limited time, it has been writing great. I have no issues with the quality of the part. I'm going to concentrate on my view of the claim that this will work with kit hardware (specifically the Jr Gent style). Note that I don't claim to be an expert - as a matter of fact I hope to have reviewed this as a layman for laymen.

First off, I'll start with some details of my observations and follow that up with my conclusions.

Image one contains a picture of the two nibs (a fountain nib and the replacement nib). My first concern is that although the length is appropriate, the threading is significantly different. The size appears to be about the same, but the pitch is about double on the replacement.

Image two shows a stock Jr Gent nib holder that I cut open with a dremel to see the inside. It is difficult to see in this picture, but the internal threads are course like the stock nib. There is relatively few threads - it appears to be about 3 times around the inside. The interesting side effect of this cut was that it made this holder work much more like a die. This holder was MUCH more proficient at cutting threads than just screwing a part into an unmodified holder.

Image three shows 2 of the new nibs in holders. The top one is the unmodified holder, the lower one is the holder with the slot cut out of it. I screwed in the new part into each holder. The top part is screwed in to the point that I could screw it in by hand. When you compare it to the lower one you can see that its not quite as far in as the one in the modified holder. When I screwed in the part into the lower holder, it actually cut new threads into the plastic part. The top one did not. Image 4 will show the comparison of the effect on the threads.

Image 4 shows 3 holders after some use (inserting and removing a couple of times). The top one is the stock nib. The middle one is the nib that was inserted into the stop holder. The bottom one is the one inserted into the modified (cut) holder. It is nearly impossible to see in the picture, and very hard in person … but the middle holder has a very small amount of "squishing" on the end of the threads. In the bottom piece you can see where the cut holder has created new threads (look for the lighter "grey" coloring on the piece.)

Thus you can see some of the core "data" that I used for my conclusions. Note that I tried to do the best I could to have pictures to back up what my eyes can see, but macro pictures at this size are not my expertise.

Finally, my conclusion..

On the question of "can this be used with a Jr Gent (or similar) kit hardware?". My answer is that it is possible. I have been using one for about a week and I can confirm that you can write with a Jr Gent with one of these replacement rollerballs. However, in my opinion - that is as far as I would be willing to take it. It is possible and I have seen it work. However, I will not be putting this into a pen that I will be giving to another person (neither for a gift nor for sale).

Here is the main reasons I won't go forward my self with these at this time:
* The thread is different than the kit holders
* I can't reliably get the nib to sit completely flush into the holder
* I believe that damage is happening to the threads by forcing it to fit.

If I ever get to making non-kit pens, this part becomes very interesting. I like the idea of being able to use very good custom ink in a custom pen other than a fountain pen. Until that time, I will be sticking to either the stock rollerballs for kits.

Hopefully I have given others some data to be able to make their own decisions.

 

[chrisk]

Only one word as a layman: exhaustive!
Thanks for sharing (and sacrificing a pen kit!) Dean.

Please could you tell us a few words about the writing feeling? Thanks in advance.

 

[Whaler]

Thanks you, I now won't waste my money on them.

 

[alphageek]

Chris,

I threw some Private Reserve ink into it. (Arabian Rose to be exact). So now this will be my "red" pen for a while.

It throws down a nice line, pretty thin - and I have no complaints about its writing ability. Actually its a bit weird seeing one of my FP in colors that thin, because I've only seen this color before from a FP which tend to write thicker for me.

I will continue to write with it for a while because for the last week I think I've been concentrating so much on seeing if it holds up to writing. As I get past "thinking about the nib" and just writing with it I may like it even more.

As for the kit.. I almost titled this "pens were harmed in this review!" since I destroyed the one nib holder... but thats ok - I've got to steal the plastic piece from the cap of this kit for one of my personal pens that someone picked up and "pulled the top off". So I'm sure I'll use some of the other parts too someday.

 

[chrisk]

Thank you Dean.
Definitely a kit I'd like to try as soon as I'll go kitless. Maybe this kit will be the pretext for my kitless venture...

 

[Russianwolf]

Ummm Dean, you do know that the threaded part of the section is a press fit , you could have popped it out and then cut it so as not to damage the grip section.

Found that out by accident one day.

 

[soligen]

Nice review. I concurr with your conclusions based on my trials. I have something to add based on my experience.

I put it in a Jr Gent nib holder. I was able to get the roller cartridge to fully seat. New threads were not "cut" but "pressed" into the old threads. Several removals and re-insertions did not seem to further affect the "pressed" in threads - they seemed stable. Due to the cross threading, the fit was tight, so spnontaneous un-screwing during use would be very unlikely.

Writing was very nice and smooth - I think everyone has agreed on this point.

Using a ink cartridge worked fine, and as these roller cartridges are slightly shorter than the FP part, I was able to use the long waterman ink cartidge, whereas the waterman would not fit the pen in FP mode.

I could not get a piston converter to work. Becasue the roller cartidge is shorter than the corresponding FP part, the converter would not go in far enough. I only tried one type of converter, and it had a shoulder on it that prevented it from going deep enough into the metal front section to engage the roller cartidge. Other converters may be different so YMMV.

I'm hoping the taps, when made available, are not too expensive so I can try kitless designs with these.

 

[maxwell_smart007]

So it sounds like you can use them, but the threading's different, and you're likely to ruin the rollerball converter, since it's the plastic part and the metal threads on the JrGent will likely eat them up if you're changing them often...

Is that about the crux of it?

Andrew

 

[Jim15]

Thanks Dean.

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

Nice review. I concurr with your conclusions based on my trials. I have something to add based on my experience.

I put it in a Jr Gent nib holder. I was able to get the roller cartridge to fully seat. New threads were not "cut" but "pressed" into the old threads. Several removals and re-insertions did not seem to further affect the "pressed" in threads - they seemed stable. Due to the cross threading, the fit was tight, so spnontaneous un-screwing during use would be very unlikely.
Writing was very nice and smooth - I think everyone has agreed on this point.

Using a ink cartridge worked fine, and as these roller cartridges are slightly shorter than the FP part, I was able to use the long waterman ink cartidge, whereas the waterman would not fit the pen in FP mode.

I could not get a piston converter to work. Becasue the roller cartidge is shorter than the corresponding FP part, the converter would not go in far enough. I only tried one type of converter, and it had a shoulder on it that prevented it from going deep enough into the metal front section to engage the roller cartidge. Other converters may be different so YMMV.

I'm hoping the taps, when made available, are not too expensive so I can try kitless designs with these.

So it sounds like you can use them, but the threading's different, and you're likely to ruin the rollerball converter, since it's the plastic part and the metal threads on the JrGent will likely eat them up if you're changing them often...

Is that about the crux of it?

Andrew

Andrew are we both reading the same post? I see nowhere him saying the cartridge will be ruined. I see where he installed and removed several times with no further affects on the treads and that they were stable. See highlited aera of his post.

 

[KenV]

I am in the process of getting some of these to further experiment -- I have the taps and dies and have been running the tap into the barons to replace the feed for fountain pens with Lou's Heritance nibs and feeds. Same threads as reported for the Schmidt unit.

Have not tried the Jr Gents, so ordered an assortment to experiment with.

My objective is to figure out an accomplishable process to use these with out going entirely kitless -

Fountianpens do require a certain mind set and willingness to accept a higher level of hassle that many are not willing to take on. To get a product in the middle range with the quality of line Dean references without the hassle seems like a good market-

Parts and pieces will not come together until the end of January for me -

 

[ed4copies]

I will be very interested in the parts YOU produce, Ken.

Thank you for doing this.

 

[ctubbs]

Thanks for all the effort and time you have expended on this project. And thanks to all the responders so far. You have kept this on a very civil footing. I too will be intrested in your findings Ken.
Charles

 

[maxwell_smart007]

Andrew are we both reading the same post? I see nowhere him saying the cartridge will be ruined. I see where he installed and removed several times with no further affects on the treads and that they were stable. See highlited aera of his post.

Yep, both reading the same post...I just didnt' understand it...

I think of cross threading as destroying the threads, but I guess that isn't so, eh?

Andrew

 

[soligen]

To clarify a few things about my post. My agreement with the OP is that I too would not give or sell a Jr. pen with these in the original configuration. But, if someone ended up not liking using a FP after the fact, I'd offer it as an "after market" option, disclosing the "issues" as I dont see any way that these could harm the original pen configuration.

Yes, threads are damaged - what I termed "pressed". However, I did not observe any plastic being removed, so I would not go so far as to say "destroyed", but that is the way I define the words. As long as we understand the same thing, use the words that best suit you

It took some effort to get the tip screwed in flush. I did a small sample, so it is possible that with tolerence variations (or arthritis) some may not screw all the way in. I didn't try enough to be able to answer one way or another.

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

I am a private reserve dealer but have nothing to gain or lose from any review of this product, (as I do not actively sell to component users just my own retail customers)but I do have an slightly opposing view.
This is by no way a slam at Dean or anyone else but just my answer to the views posted.

This review is going to focus on the Schmidt Cartridge Rollerball and how it works with an existing Jr Gent II Kit. I won't be focusing on the writing capabilities because with my limited time, it has been writing great. I have no issues with the quality of the part. I'm going to concentrate on my view of the claim that this will work with kit hardware (specifically the Jr Gent style). Note that I don't claim to be an expert - as a matter of fact I hope to have reviewed this as a layman for laymen.
This is my results so far and my opinion of the use of these on the Jr. series of component pens, I used the cartridge for a little over 3 weeks and have been taking the cartridge on and off each day 4-5 times and reinstalling the original fountain pen feed system to determine if the internal
metal treads have been damaged. So far I see none.
First off, I'll start with some details of my observations and follow that up with my conclusions.

Image one contains a picture of the two nibs (a fountain nib and the replacement nib). My first concern is that although the length is appropriate, the threading is significantly different. The size appears to be about the same, but the pitch is about double on the replacement.
I agree with the tread size and pitch

Image two shows a stock Jr Gent nib holder that I cut open with a dremel to see the inside. It is difficult to see in this picture, but the internal threads are course like the stock nib. There is relatively few threads - it appears to be about 3 times around the inside. The interesting side effect of this cut was that it made this holder work much more like a die. This holder was MUCH more proficient at cutting threads than just screwing a part into an unmodified holder.
Could this be because of any burr's that happen when slicing open?
I'd be more intrested in the shape of the female threads of the "nib holder than the refills treads. If the treads of the nib holder are not damaged I see no problem other than maybe every 3-6 months you need to replace a $3.00 cartridge. This is not an expensive part. Richard in his review said that these WILL wear out and need replacing. For that reason and that reason alone if you were to give, sell or otherwise I would tell the person using one on a component pen that the plastic treads could be damaged when taking the nib of and on. I just can't see the plastic threads doing any damage to the component metal nib.

Image three shows 2 of the new nibs in holders. The top one is the unmodified holder, the lower one is the holder with the slot cut out of it. I screwed in the new part into each holder. The top part is screwed in to the point that I could screw it in by hand. When you compare it to the lower one you can see that its not quite as far in as the one in the modified holder. When I screwed in the part into the lower holder, it actually cut new threads into the plastic part. The top one did not. Image 4 will show the comparison of the effect on the threads

At the bottom of this post you will see two photos: The first is a photo of the cartridge with a green Private reserve refill almost used up that was new 3 weeks ago when I first installed it.
The second is a photo of that same cartridge showng the threads after installing over 50 times compared to a not used unit...I see very little if any damage.

Image 4 shows 3 holders after some use (inserting and removing a couple of times). The top one is the stock nib. The middle one is the nib that was inserted into the stop holder. The bottom one is the one inserted into the modified (cut) holder. It is nearly impossible to see in the picture, and very hard in person … but the middle holder has a very small amount of "squishing" on the end of the threads. In the bottom piece you can see where the cut holder has created new threads (look for the lighter "grey" coloring on the piece.)

Of course the CUT holder would damage the treads, we won't be cutting our holders just inserting the cartridge....

Thus you can see some of the core "data" that I used for my conclusions. Note that I tried to do the best I could to have pictures to back up what my eyes can see, but macro pictures at this size are not my expertise.

Finally, my conclusion..

On the question of "can this be used with a Jr Gent (or similar) kit hardware?". My answer is that it is possible. I have been using one for about a week and I can confirm that you can write with a Jr Gent with one of these replacement rollerballs. However, in my opinion - that is as far as I would be willing to take it. It is possible and I have seen it work. However, I will not be putting this into a pen that I will be giving to another person (neither for a gift nor for sale).

Here is the main reasons I won't go forward my self with these at this time:
* The thread is different than the kit holders Agree and to some this is a problem
* I can't reliably get the nib to sit completely flush into the holder. It sits firmly and I've used it for 3 weeks as it is so not a really problem
* I believe that damage is happening to the threads by forcing it to fit.

Which treads are we talking about the cartridge or the metal component.

If I ever get to making non-kit pens, this part becomes very interesting. I like the idea of being able to use very good custom ink in a custom pen other than a fountain pen. Until that time, I will be sticking to either the stock rollerballs for kits.

I also think for component less pens this will work but I see no reason they won't work in our component pens with the customer knowing in advance that these are for lack of a better word "disposable" as was stated by Richard and will wear out and the treads can be damaged although I've taken mine in and out over 50 times and see no damage.

Hopefully I have given others some data to be able to make their own decisions

After all this is just our views , what I would ask each of you who might think they want to use these on components as they are around $2.75 buy one and try it yourself. I will not sell them to members so as not to look like I'm looking for any business but we do have a few other private reserve dealers and also some Schmidt dealers. All you have to lose is $2,75


This was not ment to be a flame of Deans review just an opposing view. In a perfect world everone will always have the same opinion and I do respect his.

IN conclusion would I sell a pen with this as the primary or only way of using
NO!
But and there is always a but:biggrin: if a person bought a fountain pen from me and wanted to be able to write in one of the off colors (not black or blue) as a rollerball I would suggest this as a way of writing in that color.
I don't see these as large sellers but as a specialty item or as something for totally custome made pens​

 

[JerrySambrook]

Thanks for both viewpoints.

And I am very happy to see someone say that No, it is not "good enough".
This is a great thing for kitless pens.

Maybe a good course of action might be to go back to schmidt and explain that there might be a viable market to get these done in the standard thread that is used here. Or maybe there is a nitch to be said about making a new feed holder that will accept the rollerball converter and still screw into a jr series or baron series pen

 

[soligen]

My and Roy's posts crossing in the ether LOL. I also see this as an "add-on" and seeing as a user would have little need to remove the tips, I think the threads are very unlikely to cause a problem. Out of principle, I just couldn't sell a $100+ pen whose primary configuration had mis-matched threads

Roy, The threads on your used tip look real good - better than mine, but mine arn't too bad. I'm guessing the affects on the plastic threads may vary, as kit components vary.

I'll try to post a pic of my threads later.

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

As has been pointed out to me Soligen's and Deans threads were not as clean as mine and I've only used one cartridge on one nib housing so different results could be had by others.....

 

[soligen]

Here is what my threads look like. This happened to them the fiirst time I screwed it in, and really haven't changed since.

 

[KenV]

The mail arrived -- and with it a couple of the rolling riter tips from Mike and Linda.

I have a sample of 1 -- a baron fountain pen in a presentation desk pen configuration with both cap and desk base -

The baron has a tip that hold the feed mechanism of metal that threads into the body.

I have the taps & dies and use Lou's Heritance nibs - this one had not been converted so did so.

I run the 6.4mm tap though the Baron metal end piece by hand. No wrenches or clamps, just fingers, Minor resistance and a few small chips of metal were on the tap. I drill and tap holes and I was NOT cutting threads. I threaded one of the Heritance nib assemblies in to try that -- it fit nicely.

Ran the rolling riter into the 6.4 die and it fit with no visible difference in threads. Took the small ring off the Baron feed assembly (just above the nib) and checked it for fit on the rolling riter. It slid down. Tried to assemble the rolling riter into the Baron metal end. The ring would not seat all the way down easily and was removed. The rolling riter then fit snugly against the metal piece looking as if it was a match - as good as the stock fountainpen assembly.

The rolling riter comes with a plastic sleeve that clicks onto the end. Tried to fit that into the Baron cap -- not a fit so put the plastic sleeve into the spare parts bag and kept on working with the Baron.

Inked it up and tried it. Wrote wonderfully with the nice line. My wife appropriated it at that point - took a can of private reserve universal ink refills, and a leatherette holder and promised to let me know how it works.

Based on a sample of 1 ---

The use of a threading die to chase the threads makes the Baron component pen accept the rolling riter the same as I would normally do for an upgrade to a heritance nib. About a 2 minute process.

I got to break up a fancy desk pen setup and lose another pen to my spouse.

I still have no idea about the Jr Gent -- but will have a sample of 10 to work with when I get to snobird land in a few weeks.

I will hit the inventory and pull out any Baron/Seldona Fountainpen component sets and replicate the sample of 1. That likely will happen the end of January also.


So -- if I next encounter a person who like fountain pens, but not the hassle, there is an alternative to discuss -- and I have no problem providing a couple of rolling riter assemblies with a high end fountain pen for someone who might not otherwise go there.

Thanks to Mike and Linda at http://www.indy-pen-dance.com/


At this point in time, I know nothing about the threads or fit on Jr. Gents, but am feeling good about the Baron/Seldona working -- mostly because of experience fitting the Heritance nits to those pens after chasing the threads with the 6.4 mm tap.

 

[Russianwolf]

just a thought, what is the measured diameter of the rollerballs versus the original fountain feeds? I'm thinking that if they are slightly smaller could be why most are seeing little damage to the threads.

 

[alphageek]

Ok.. here goes... Off to answer a couple of questions and clarify a few things that later things pointed out to me that I didn't answer.

First, I'm going to skip Kens review notes for now - they raise some interesting questions for me, but they don't apply to my review for 2 reasons. 1) He did play with a tap and die on these which I don't have and 2) he reviewed it in a baron and I've never made a baron FP. So that points to me that if I want to use these with a kit, there may be an option (gonna have to get my hands on a kit to play soon!)

Dennis (soligen).. Thanks for your picture and your other thoughts. I believe your picture backs up my thoughts on the thread pitch and effects. However, I hadn't tried it with other ink (just a cartridge) so that is very good info for someone who may take these further.

Mike - Thanks for the "pressed in" note.. NO, I didn't realize that before.. But I guessed that based on what I saw AFTER cutting it apart. Your not confirms that and although I'm glad for what I did (for this review) - I'm going to file that tidbit in my brain for the future.

Andrew - I think your summary (which Roy argued with) is very close IMO. Since the threads don't match, I believe that damage to those those threads on the new part. See more in my answers to Roy.

Roy... I'm answering you last as you raised the most interesting questions and other views. Note, that I have no stake in these parts either (although I was excited about the idea they presented for ink!) and I don't take your review as a slam, but I will say that I am a bit surprised by them... The rest of this reply is to answer some of your questions, to clarify some of the things I missed, and to raise a couple new questions to you... I respect your experience and I am here to learn.

"could the damage be from a burr?" - Yes, it sure the heck could! However, I see the point that I forgot to raise. Once the "damage" was done, the part threaded into an un-modified holder and did so all the way. To me, soligens picture looks like similar damage was done.

"which threads are we talking about?" When it comes to the damage, I also believe the new nib will bear the brunt of the damage. The holder is brass, and although I don't believe its receiving nearly the same damage, I have NO idea if there is some or not. I honestly hadn't thought about that and didn't even attempt a close inspection.

"deans threads may not have been as clean as mine" - I don't think my picture shows it nearly as well as yours. I think the threads were similar, my 1st picture shows them best... I think there is a different answer though.

My thoughts as to why Roys results are different than mine: I was convinced that the nib should be fully seated in the holder (as I expect Dennis did as well). If you are willing to have a gap the way that my top holder or Roys, picture shows, then this may well work for you. However, it is my feeling that Roys part isn't truely being "threaded" together. The pitch differences are allowing the threading to only go a slight way in and he is stopping before the point of deformation. For example: Try threading a 1/4-40 bolt into a 1/4-20 nut. It will thread together, just not very far.

Roy, please don't take this next statement as criticism, but rather curiousity. Most of us make sure that out stuff fits within thousandths - I'm surprised that you see neither the gap in your first picture nor the thread mismatch as a problem for you.


Back to the overall... (not answering just Roy):
Good discussion overall... Ken - I'd love to see some pictures of your results. Maybe there is still an option out there for me (in something other than the Jr Gent series). This has been an interesting discussion, but hasn't changed my view that I may continue to use these in a Jr Gent, but only one in my personal collection.

 

[alphageek]

just a thought, what is the measured diameter of the rollerballs versus the original fountain feeds? I'm thinking that if they are slightly smaller could be why most are seeing little damage to the threads.

I'm away this weekend, but I'll do some measuring Sunday night.. Its a good thought as a possible explanation.

 

[KenV]

Dean -- I will try to take a picture if I can get it away from the person currently possessing it.

My observation is that the Rolling Riter is a "dead ringer" for the Heritance Nibs and both are identical in the die as a point of comparison.

I have found no published info on the threading sizes on either the CUSA/Daycom Jr Gent nor the Berea Baron/Seldona (which I understand is the Woodcraft Navigator - but have never purchased a Navigator) - Perhaps this discussion on the forum will generate some measurements and publication of the measured threading for the use of others so we need not reinvent the data over and over again.


The emperical info suggests that the Baron/Seldona is at least very close to the 6.4 mm thread on the tap. The $30 for a tap is either high or moderate depending on your perspective and how you will use it.

My training is to chase threads with a tap when you can (especially by hand) -- and attempt to measure threads when possible.

I have an assortment of CUSA Jr Gents headed my way -- will see if they are consistent and perhaps find what the threading really is. Two venerable references suggest they have had good experiences with Jr. Gents, and that represents two reasonable data points. Your experience is different -- and that is another valid data point

Do you have metric thread gages to measure the pitch on the housing you split?? That would be most useful information.

(PS -- I hate the term kit == many of us purchase sets of components that we use, mix, change, and modify to end with pens -- end of rant)

 

[soligen]

(PS -- I hate the term kit == many of us purchase sets of components that we use, mix, change, and modify to end with pens -- end of rant)

Excellen point. I have learned to avoid the term "kit" and talk about my "component suppliers".

So, Ed, when are you going to change the "Kits" section of your web site to "Component Sets":tongue: :devil::devil:

 

[ed4copies]

We would really like to do that, Dennis. If you see me selling at a craft show, it is highly unlikely you will ever hear the word "kit".

Unfortunately GOOGLE can't translate. So, if someone searches "pen kit", I don't want to be so erudite they miss Dawn's website.

But, you are welcome to purchase components any time, they come with our "pen kits":biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

 

[alphageek]

Ken - I agree with that "rant" 100% when it comes to customers. However, I was doing that on purpose in this case. Since I was commenting on how a specific individual component fit into another "set" of components I kept referring to the Jr Gent components as "kit". As it is, sometimes it was tough to be clear about which threads I was talking about in this review.

That being said - I have family that is manufacturing and distribution. In that world, a component is a single piece, components are multiple pieces, and a kit is a specific definition of qtys of components. Therefore in purchasing/specifying things that are being bought, a kit is not a "bad" word.

 

[IPD_Mrs]

Here is what my threads look like. This happened to them the fiirst time I screwed it in, and really haven't changed since.

Dennis - is this the "damage" that we discussed with you when you ultimately discovered there were metal burrs inside the metal threads of your kit?

I think if we are looking at all of the issues so that there can be educated decisions made then we need to disclose all of the information when posting photographs and stating that there was damage done the first time a product is used. Failure to disclose starting with an inferior kit or component is misleading to that effort.

We clearly stated in another post that if you start with a damaged metal kit you are likely to have damage to the plastic rollerball writing system, specifically because of your issue. We have ONLY used this product on CSUSA Jr. Gent kits and we have not had the problem you are displaying.

 

[soligen]

The picture previously posted is NOT damage from the bad kit I had. I feel it would be inapproriate to include any information from that experience into this review. Everything I posted is information and experience I gathered after the bad kit issue was discovered and I started using a different FP to test.

I never previously posted publicly any pictures of threads damaged from the kit with burred threads, and I have never previously mentioned that issue in any public post. Those were sent only to you and the supplier of the kit. I will decline to mention the kit supplier (unless the suppier wants me to), but I will say that they took care of the kit issue, and I am very pleased with the supplier. I'm also pleased with you as a supplier.

If my response sounds defensive, it's not my intent. I just want to be clear that I feel everything I have posted in this thread I believe to be independent of the issue I had with burrs on the metal threads. I used a different FP, and a fresh new roller tip to test. My intention was not to muddy the waters with the thread burr issue, but since you mentioned it, I want everything straight.

For those curious, below is what the threads looked like when I put the part into a bad metal front section that had burrs on the threads. I want to be very clear that this is thread damage from defective kit threads, and in no way related to the roller cartridge. You can see the same damage to the kit FP part and the roller cartridge. I also have every reason to believe that the bad kit threads were an isolated issue, and not indicative of the normal quality of the kit.

Sorry the pic is a bit out of focus. This particular roller cartridge is now in a landfill somewhere, so I cant re-take it's picture.

Here is what my threads look like. This happened to them the fiirst time I screwed it in, and really haven't changed since.

Dennis - is this the "damage" that we discussed with you when you ultimately discovered there were metal burrs inside the metal threads of your kit?

I think if we are looking at all of the issues so that there can be educated decisions made then we need to disclose all of the information when posting photographs and stating that there was damage done the first time a product is used. Failure to disclose starting with an inferior kit or component is misleading to that effort.

We clearly stated in another post that if you start with a damaged metal kit you are likely to have damage to the plastic rollerball writing system, specifically because of your issue. We have ONLY used this product on CSUSA Jr. Gent kits and we have not had the problem you are displaying.

 

[alphageek]

Here is what my threads look like. This happened to them the fiirst time I screwed it in, and really haven't changed since.

Dennis - is this the "damage" that we discussed with you when you ultimately discovered there were metal burrs inside the metal threads of your kit?

I think if we are looking at all of the issues so that there can be educated decisions made then we need to disclose all of the information when posting photographs and stating that there was damage done the first time a product is used. Failure to disclose starting with an inferior kit or component is misleading to that effort.

We clearly stated in another post that if you start with a damaged metal kit you are likely to have damage to the plastic rollerball writing system, specifically because of your issue. We have ONLY used this product on CSUSA Jr. Gent kits and we have not had the problem you are displaying.

Mike and Lynda,

I know your question was to Dennis, but I'm going to reply as well (for one due to the fact that that this stemmed from my review, and secondly since you talk about failing to disclose.)

First on disclosure - You might just not have thought about restating it here, but since some reading this thread may not realize... You are one of the vendors that sell this part (and as far as I know, the only vendor that claims this will work with Jr Gents). Since you are redirecting the "issue" that Dennis and I are seeing, for future readers I would like to make this point clear that you do have vested interest in this part and claim.

Second - As for the damage to the component from a Jr Gent. Honestly, I don't see the damage as the primary concern here. The damage in my opinion is the side effect of the mismatch of thread size. The bigger issue is the thread size and if you are threading it in all the way. Its in a different thread, but your picture shows the same "gap" that Roys does and I believe the reason that you don't see damage is you aren't getting it threaded in all the way.

Third - Although I admit the damage to MY part may or may not be from a burr (and so might Dennis's for all I know), the real key piece in my mind is that only a part that has had "damage" works in a normal undamaged JR part. What I mean by that - is that once a part is "damaged" in this method, it fully can thread into a part.

So, although this has been an interesting discussion (Roy did point out a few interesting points), my conclusion hasn't really changed. My conclusion for anyone who is considering this for a JR Gent is caveat emptor (let the buyer beware) - This part might work for you, but the threading is NOT the same as the stock parts and your results will vary due to that.

 

[IPD_Mrs]

Mike and Lynda, LINDA

I know your question was to Dennis, but I'm going to reply as well (for one due to the fact that that this stemmed from my review, and secondly since you talk about failing to disclose.)

First on disclosure - You might just not have thought about restating it here, but since some reading this thread may not realize... You are one of the vendors that sell this part (and as far as I know, the only vendor that claims this will work with Jr Gents). Since you are redirecting the "issue" that Dennis and I are seeing, for future readers I would like to make this point clear that you do have vested interest in this part and claim.

Given that all of this seems to stem DIRECTLY from the fact that we sell these and we made the statement that these "will work in a Jr. Gent" I see no failure to disclose anything. Technically however while I do have a small vested interest in these there is no HUGE vested interest as there would be if I were bringing in a new pen kit or something like that. I didn't go out and purchase a thousand of these - unlike other vendors, when it comes to items from Private Reserve I am able to buy product on an as needed basis if I want to - I live only about 4 miles from them. I did not have to invest ANYTHING to get this product to the market. Therefore if I decided to stop selling these today I would not have any loss as what I have in stock would be no more than what I could personally use. Guess you could say I really don't have that much of a vested interest after all ...

Which brings me to another point. I have NEVER seen this much REVIEW and fuss about ANY product, much less a $2.70 item that has ALREADY been available to IAP for over 2 years as I have this little tiny plastic item that an expert (who Ed Brown discussed this item with at length) has clearly stated is considered as disposable and will need to be replaced. It makes me wonder if there isn't some other motivation going on - what's the vested interest on the "other side of the fence ..."

Second - As for the damage to the component from a Jr Gent. Honestly, I don't see the damage as the primary concern here. The damage in my opinion is the side effect of the mismatch of thread size. The bigger issue is the thread size and if you are threading it in all the way. Its in a different thread, but your picture shows the same "gap" that Roys does and I believe the reason that you don't see damage is you aren't getting it threaded in all the way.

Yet all these posts talk about damage???

Third - Although I admit the damage to MY part may or may not be from a burr (and so might Dennis's for all I know), the real key piece in my mind is that only a part that has had "damage" works in a normal undamaged JR part. What I mean by that - is that once a part is "damaged" in this method, it fully can thread into a part.

I don't know if the photo Dennis put out was the one from a kit that had burrs or not. If he is doing what you report you are doing and forcing it in all the way I would guess it is possible to damage these with extreme force as well. These aren't metal guys and we have all agreed that they are not exactly the same threading, but they are close enough to work. Plastic can be damaged - we all know that. However they will work with the kit pens if you want to have that option, if not they are great for making your own designs.


So, although this has been an interesting discussion (Roy did point out a few interesting points), my conclusion hasn't really changed. My conclusion for anyone who is considering this for a JR Gent is caveat emptor (let the buyer beware) - This part might work for you, but the threading is NOT the same as the stock parts and your results will vary due to that.

To that point we never said the parts were identical. We never said the threads were identical. The only thing we ever said was that the part will work in a Jr. Gent. AND IT WILL - this has been shown. Therefore, if you don't like the way it works that is fine - use it with a different set of components/or kit (as Ken showed was possible) or use it in a kitless design or if you just don't like it then don't use it. It just seems silly to keep going on over this little part. The information seems more than thorough enough to make well informed decisions.

In fact, I have a piece that I have put into MULTIPLE Jr. Gent FP and taken in and out of all of these several times and even with a 30x jewelers eye you cannot see any damage to the converter - nor was there ever any damage to any of the original fountain pen nibs that came with these pens.

 

[alphageek]

Mike and Linda (I'm sorry for the spelling error - I work every day with a Lynda)...

I'm not going to argue with you here.. You have your claim that these will work with the Jr series and there is now plenty of detail why I feel it will not.

All I will reply to is your implication of "other side of the fence" and give the answer in terms of full disclosure....

Heres where MY (and only MY) significant interest in this stands: You say this was available here for 2 years.. That may be true, but your re-introducion of this (along with your claim of it working for Jrs) raised alot of interest and was the first time that I noticed them. Its not like these were being ACTIVELY sold here - (I'd love for you to point out to me the last ad from before you started selling them.) The interest for me is that I was very excited to see a way to take one of my favorite kits, to have it be a rollerball and still be able to use the private reserve inks that I love. I don't have a big fountain pen following, but I have had requests for colored ink. This would have given me a great way to do that.

However, once I acquired some of these - I tested this out and tried to do so fully. The definition of "close enough to work" for you is obviously different than mine. (And I do believe that you may not be getting damage - and I've stated my opinions as to why that is.)

You are right - It really doesn't matter what I do with these. The amount of $$ I have invested is basically near zero. However, If I can share information that helps someone else make a better choice in the future, thats what I see IAP is all about. Nothing say that the reviews here must all be positive. The reason that I have been as verbose here is that if I'm going to have something negative to say, I want to make sure that the readers have enough information to make their own judgement.

And I still DO hope that Kens answer leads to something viable. I am still interested in the IDEA of these... I just hope that there is a combination that works for me. Or maybe someone can convince the suppliers to make one with a different thread pitch! A guy can hope!

 

[soligen]

I didn't participate in the previous thread of the review of this product becasue that thread went downhill. Looks like this one is headed in the same direction, so if there are any further questions about anything I have posted, please send me a PM and I will be happy to answer in PM.

 

[IPD_Mrs]

Mike and Linda (I'm sorry for the spelling error - I work every day with a Lynda)... no problem, just making sure it was right!

I'm not going to argue with you here.. You have your claim that these will work with the Jr series and there is not plenty of detail why I feel it will not.

All I will reply to is your implication of "other side of the fence" and give the answer in terms of full disclosure....

Heres where MY (and only MY) significant interest in this stands: You say this was available here for 2 years.. That may be true, but your re-introducion of this (along with your claim of it working for Jrs) raised alot of interest and was the first time that I noticed them. Its not like these were being ACTIVELY sold here - (I'd love for you to point out to me the last ad from before you started selling them.)

Reduced prices on all Schmidt refills started on October 26. Peter Hall inquires about the Rolling Riter on November 13th and Richard Greenwald answers on the 14th. There was some discussion at that point.

However we did not claim that there was any HIGHLY active thread or ads etc, only that they have been available - per Richard Greewald's own personal post.

The interest for me is that I was very excited to see a way to take one of my favorite kits, to have it be a rollerball and still be able to use the private reserve inks that I love. I don't have a big fountain pen following, but I have had requests for colored ink. This would have given me a great way to do that.
Ok, Works for me. (your reason for wanting to investigate this so intently that is.)

That is what this product does, we have been using it for several weeks now both with a converter and ink cartridges. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to do so in a manner that works for you - and that is ok. Your opinion is welcomed as is the opinion of anyone else that chooses to post on this topic regardless of whether it is positive or not. It simply seems that the level of negativity that this has generated has gone past the item being reviewed and that observation is not one of a personal making only but one that has been brought to our attention by several members of IAP.

However, once I acquired some of these - I tested this out and tried to do so fully. The definition of "close enough to work" for you is obviously different than mine. (And I do believe that you may not be getting damage - and I've stated my opinions as to why that is.)

Your point has been made and is understood, however if someone really wants to use a Jr. Gent with this product and with the PR fountain pen ink it will work - which is all we have ever said.

You are right - It really doesn't matter what I do with these. The amount of $$ I have invested is basically near zero. However, If I can share information that helps someone else make a better choice in the future, thats what I see IAP is all about. Nothing say that the reviews here must all be positive. The reason that I have been as verbose here is that if I'm going to have something negative to say, I want to make sure that the readers have enough information to make their own judgement.

You are correct and we have never said all reviews must be positive, in fact we learn as much or more from those with differing (or negative) opinions as we do from those with positive opinions. Even your own opinion is that this will be good with kitless design so you haven't been all negative. If everyone that has tried this had come back and said that it was horrible and had no use what so ever then we wouldn't be having this discussion because we would have no interest in them at all.

And I still DO hope that Kens answer leads to something viable. I am still interested in the IDEA of these... I just hope that there is a combination that works for me. Or maybe someone can convince the suppliers to make one with a different thread pitch! A guy can hope!

I believe that Ken will give it his best! As for the suppliers making it with a different pitch . . . well we could hope but something tells me it probably isn't going to happen. It would make more sense to get a tap the exact size you want to match the exact thread size you want.
Schmidt isn't likely to start making these available in every pitch to match all the pen kits available that we all use and love. I would bet that for those who don't believe this is close enough to suit their taste there is probably some modification that will be found to make it more suitable in the end.
We liked the idea of these too. Mrs. agrees with Mesquiteman and likes the idea of them being made in metal although that isn't very likely either.

 

[alphageek]

I didn't participate in the previous thread of the review of this product becasue that thread went downhill. Looks like this one is headed in the same direction, so if there are any further questions about anything I have posted, please send me a PM and I will be happy to answer in PM.

I would be more than happy to answer questions in PM as well. As for this going downhill.. I hope that my last post was the end of that. I will continue to contribute here as it is my thread, but only on technical aspects.

But thank you for your contribution Dennis. My hope is that the next topic on this item is some more information (in a new thread might be best) from Ken.

 

[KenV]

One of the questions in my mind -- do all the Jr Gents Fountain Pens have the same threading on the nib end???

changes or differences in sources of supply, or similar could easily result in a change in threading -- and lead to this kind of discussion.

I wondered that and ordered 10 component sets in three different platings and postable and non-postable ends == Just too cheap to get a full set of duplicates or run multiple replicates regardless of the statistics.

Not that I have ever seen a manufacturing process change source with small changes in outcome specifications before.....

Will let you know once I get Snobird Land and get the gear together later this month.

 

[alphageek]

One of the questions in my mind -- do all the Jr Gents Fountain Pens have the same threading on the nib end???

changes or differences in sources of supply, or similar could easily result in a change in threading -- and lead to this kind of discussion.

That is a good question. If there is something different, I havn't seen it.. At least talking about the Jr Gent II and Jr Statesman II. As far as I know, they are exclusive to CSUSA. I don't have answer for the "apprentice line", but for the normal ones that they sell I don't see a difference. (All my experiences only.)

 

[IPD_Mrs]

One of the questions in my mind -- do all the Jr Gents Fountain Pens have the same threading on the nib end???

changes or differences in sources of supply, or similar could easily result in a change in threading -- and lead to this kind of discussion.

That is a good question. If there is something different, I haven't seen it.. At least talking about the Jr Gent II and Jr Statesman II. As far as I know, they are exclusive to CSUSA. I don't have answer for the "apprentice line", but for the normal ones that they sell I don't see a difference. (All my experiences only.)

Mike - here
I have a question about this that I hope you can answer. The pen that I put this in was actually a Jr Retro that is about 2-1/2 years old. I know this because the blank that is on it is an Eagle Wave and it was completed before he passed. The nib holder is the same as on a Jr Gent II from the same time frame. We have a pretty good inventory of Jr kits that we have had for over a year. We were running out of stock of a couple different styles so we made an order when CSUSA had the 15% off sale. The kits came in and are all tagged Artisan Jr. Gent. Do you know if there is any difference in the kits over the last couple of years or is it just a name thing? I don't see a difference, but that doesn't mean anything. :biggrin:

 

[alphageek]

Mike.. I don't know. Pics?