edicehouse
Member
One thing a lot of people are saying is add this contest and that contest, but there are only so many that run the contests and there are only so many prizes. If a segmented is done they may have to cut a different contest.
What did you think about Birthday Bash 10?
- Thread starter mbroberg
- Start date
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Hendu3270
Member
First off, thank you to all who helped with the BASH! The managers, the sponsors and the turners who took the time to create the pens to enter. The following are just some of my thoughts on the classes. There most likely are specific reasons, I'm not thinking of at the moment, that work against some of these thoughts...
1. Beginner - (kit only, no segmenting) There were several segmented pens in the beginner contest this year. No disrespect meant to anyone who created one of these pens (they were all fine pens). In my opinion, however, if you're turning out segmented pens, you are not in the beginner class. I feel the beginner class is for those who have not been turning very long and who are trying to get their fit and finish down. You want everyone to do their best, but if you think about it, you wouldn't expect a beginners pen to be flawless, right? I think segmenting belongs in the Intermediate class, or as others have stated, in its own class. A rule, in this class, of "no segmenting" just might force some guys to move up a class, which isn't a bad thing at all.
2. Intermediate - (kit only) I think the intermediate class should allow segmenting, and be kit only. If you're modifying a kit, it should be entered into the "modified class".
Here's where it gets weird for me when I think of these classes. For awhile now, I've felt a class needs to be created between the intermediate and advanced, since the advanced was made up mostly of kitless pens, (the results of this years advanced class sort of shoots that theory down though). But I'll continue. The problem with this is….if you have a kitless class, then what's left in the Advanced class? At that point, there's not much difference between the Intermediate and Advanced classes.
So What I think needs to happen is to create a "kitless class" for kitless pens. Then combine the intermediate and advanced classes into one and call it the "Skilled Class" or "Pro Class" or something along those lines. Then the beginners class will remain the same with some minor tweeking of the rules.
Just my thoughts…
1. Beginner - (kit only, no segmenting) There were several segmented pens in the beginner contest this year. No disrespect meant to anyone who created one of these pens (they were all fine pens). In my opinion, however, if you're turning out segmented pens, you are not in the beginner class. I feel the beginner class is for those who have not been turning very long and who are trying to get their fit and finish down. You want everyone to do their best, but if you think about it, you wouldn't expect a beginners pen to be flawless, right? I think segmenting belongs in the Intermediate class, or as others have stated, in its own class. A rule, in this class, of "no segmenting" just might force some guys to move up a class, which isn't a bad thing at all.
2. Intermediate - (kit only) I think the intermediate class should allow segmenting, and be kit only. If you're modifying a kit, it should be entered into the "modified class".
Here's where it gets weird for me when I think of these classes. For awhile now, I've felt a class needs to be created between the intermediate and advanced, since the advanced was made up mostly of kitless pens, (the results of this years advanced class sort of shoots that theory down though). But I'll continue. The problem with this is….if you have a kitless class, then what's left in the Advanced class? At that point, there's not much difference between the Intermediate and Advanced classes.
So What I think needs to happen is to create a "kitless class" for kitless pens. Then combine the intermediate and advanced classes into one and call it the "Skilled Class" or "Pro Class" or something along those lines. Then the beginners class will remain the same with some minor tweeking of the rules.
Just my thoughts…
Ed McDonnell
Member
I don't quite understand a need to have a kitless only category. Pens that are partly or wholly derived from kits have done just fine competing against kitless pens in the advanced category. What doesn't seem to be competitive in the advanced category are pens using a commercial (or commonly available) blank with commercial fittings where the only real skill demonstrated is the ability to turn things round.
I would favor fewer restrictions in the advanced category. Even to the point of none. Make and submit whatever you want. A totally open competition. The only rule I think would be worthwhile is a "full disclosure" rule. The source of all materials and processes used would be fully disclosed so people could determine what advanced skills were applied beyond the basic skill of making things round on a lathe.
I also have to wonder why a segmented category is needed. Is it because people think segmented pens have an advantage with voters and they want to get them out of the category that they are interested in competing in? Is it because segmented blank makers think they don't get enough respect in the general categories (I doubt this is it)? I agree that segmented pens indicate an ability beyond beginner, but other than that I don't see why they would be restricted or isolated.
I'm sure thousands of specialized contests could be thought up. Even one limited to pens made from 2x4s by male pen makers in South Dakota whose names starts with D. But the more fragmented the competition is made, the less meaningful the competition becomes. At least that's how I see it.
Ed
I would favor fewer restrictions in the advanced category. Even to the point of none. Make and submit whatever you want. A totally open competition. The only rule I think would be worthwhile is a "full disclosure" rule. The source of all materials and processes used would be fully disclosed so people could determine what advanced skills were applied beyond the basic skill of making things round on a lathe.
I also have to wonder why a segmented category is needed. Is it because people think segmented pens have an advantage with voters and they want to get them out of the category that they are interested in competing in? Is it because segmented blank makers think they don't get enough respect in the general categories (I doubt this is it)? I agree that segmented pens indicate an ability beyond beginner, but other than that I don't see why they would be restricted or isolated.
I'm sure thousands of specialized contests could be thought up. Even one limited to pens made from 2x4s by male pen makers in South Dakota whose names starts with D. But the more fragmented the competition is made, the less meaningful the competition becomes. At least that's how I see it.
Ed
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Now that sounds like a contest!
Dan Masshardt
Member
I'm from the wrong state. Doh!
Ed McDonnell
Member
No problem. How about a 4P contest. Limited exclusively to Pens made by Pastors from Pennsylvania whose name doesn't begin with P? :biggrin:
Ed
Ed McDonnell
Member
Hey Derek - Convincing people to move to the desolate wind blown frozen prarie
may be a tougher sell than convincing entrants to change contests. Although, I was in South Dakota for the summer one year and it was really nice. I think summer began August 4 that year and lasted almost the whole day. :biggrin:
Ed
mbroberg
IAP Activities Manager, Emeritus
Anyone Else?
plano_harry
Member
Just a comment on segmenting. Inspired early on by Tim Wise's work, my 2nd pen was longitudinal segments and I entered in the Beginners contest. It is still one of my best looking pens. I lost to two other segmented pens and gator jawbone. Maybe rare in the under 14 bracket, but someone with woodworking skills, but new to turning can produce some pretty nice segment work with only the library articles for guidance.
TimS124
Member
The daily trivia contest rules changed somewhere during the BASH…email submissions weren't initially required to have the username in them. It makes sense to have it of course, but that wasn't spelled out (at least not that I noticed) until part way through the month.
As a result, some of my initial entries would've been rejected if I'd been lucky enough to have been picked.
The daily trivia was a blast, but entering via email was a bad choice. There's no confirmation that an entry was received (versus eaten by a spam filter en route). Once in a while, somebody would ask if their submission arrived and the contest leader always chimed in, but that doesn't scale well.
Entering via PM here would provide automatic user identification as well as confirmation of submission…
Some of the questions for the daily trivia had errors….perhaps they were intentional to make finding the answer a wee bit more involved but it added a sense of frustration for those of use that take things too literally some times.
Otherwise, the daily trivia contest was a lot of fun. I picked up a few tips on what's available here on IAP, read a few tutorials (to find answers) that I'd been putting off…
Many thanks to everybody that ran contests, donated prizes, and otherwise helped make BASH happen.
Looking forward to next year's BASH!
As a result, some of my initial entries would've been rejected if I'd been lucky enough to have been picked.
The daily trivia was a blast, but entering via email was a bad choice. There's no confirmation that an entry was received (versus eaten by a spam filter en route). Once in a while, somebody would ask if their submission arrived and the contest leader always chimed in, but that doesn't scale well.
Entering via PM here would provide automatic user identification as well as confirmation of submission…
Some of the questions for the daily trivia had errors….perhaps they were intentional to make finding the answer a wee bit more involved but it added a sense of frustration for those of use that take things too literally some times.
Otherwise, the daily trivia contest was a lot of fun. I picked up a few tips on what's available here on IAP, read a few tutorials (to find answers) that I'd been putting off…
Many thanks to everybody that ran contests, donated prizes, and otherwise helped make BASH happen.
Looking forward to next year's BASH!
TimS124
Member
One suggestion for next year: Please consider adding a pen contest that allows the use of CNC. It could be quite interesting to see what members come up with…CNC routers, laser engravers, 3D printers…Tormach milling machines….
As maker spaces become more common, more people will have access to these machines without having to pony up big bucks to buy one for themselves...
As maker spaces become more common, more people will have access to these machines without having to pony up big bucks to buy one for themselves...
buttonsHT
Member
Being a new member I automatically assumed I should put my IAP name in my email since they wouldn't know who the email was from.
3rd post in the Feb 1st thread states that you should put your name in. Rules didn't change at all.
http://www.penturners.org/forum/f249/feb-1-daily-trivia-question-118983/
There is a first time for everything and I guess you could say I was a "Bash Virgin". Having said that, I entered in three different contests and enjoyed the camaraderie and friendly banter. Most of all I enjoyed seeing the different entries and it gave me a good idea of what is needed to be competitive on this level. I'm already planning some entries for next year! Kudos to those who planned and acted as administrators for the myriad of contests. There were plenty to choose from and something for everyone.
Thanks for a great Bash!
Thanks for a great Bash!
TimS124
Member
Thanks for the link, but that does show the rules changed. The need for the username should have been in the post from the contest sponsor...post #1, day #1…anything else is indeed a change in the rules.
Please note that post #3 did NOT come from the contest's leader and that it included the statement, "... an essay of 500 words on why Florida is much better this time of year over Indiana…"
So, it's not clear at all that post #3 was a definitive rule clarification. And, since I didn't participate on Day 1, that entire thread was of zero value.
Instead, I went with what was posted in the official rules thread: http://www.penturners.org/forum/f249/daily-trivia-contest-118357/
I see no requirement in that thread about including our user name. The "Attention Members" thread posted on the 8th to clarify some points does NOT include the requirement of including the user's name.
I checked each daily thread just now and confirmed that indeed, the requirement/reminder about including the username was introduced on Feb 12th.
My initial post said it made sense to include that, but it was NOT part of the rules stated by the person running the contest until almost half way through the month.
buttonsHT
Member
It's common sense to put your IAP name in there... just sayin.
Dalecamino
Local Chapter Leader
FWIW, I call this a legitimate complaint. The rules were a Copy & Paste from last year. And, probably not proof read by ME. Thanks for pointing this out and, it will be corrected for next year. Sorry for the inconvenience this year.
There, it's done.
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Hendu3270
Member
The below was taken from the rules of this years advanced category...
3- Materials and Methods; The pen may be constructed from whatever materials(s) you choose. Conventional or unconventional. You may make the pen with ready made components from kits, completely kitless or any stage in-between. You can make the pen using any tools available to you as long as you make the pen. That includes but is not limited to wood lathes, metal lathes, cnc equipment , Mills, casting equipment, etc.
TimS124
Member
Chris - thank you, I clearly missed that!
Hendu3270
Member
:good:
SDB777
Member
How/what are you using to describe a store?
Are you stating that only blanks that are offered in a walk-in 'store' are to be allowed.
Define 'home cast' please?
I'm thinking if a person/individual casts these blanks anywhere but a 'store', then they would be considered 'home cast'.
Seems like these 'rules' would prohibit 'fair trade'....and limit people to only purchasing blanks/kits for one or two places. But maybe that would be beneficial to 'certain people'?
Scott (too many rules already) B
Brooks803
Member
Scott, my idea was to simplify the contest...NOT add more rules. You take a ballpoint kit, you follow it's directions to the letter (ex: no alterations), and you use either a single piece of wood or a commercially made acrylic. DONE. How is that complicated or overbearing with rules?
I'm trying to take the "WOW, look at the blank" factor out of the voting equation. This is for the beginners contest. The criteria should be fit, finish, and craftsmanship. Not who could cast the coolest blank. That's for a different contest. That's my reasoning for saying no home cast blanks or ones that are available for purchase (that includes mine!). There's not an easy way to explain what's "commercial" and what's "home cast". But if the beginners contest is still being done next year and I'm chairing it I'll be sure to have it all laid out in time. I've got a year to do it.
SDB777
Member
This would only prohibit imagination. But go ahead.....discourage the 'beginner' from using imagination. They might want to be limited to nothing but pine and slimlines too?
Scott (I'll bow out) B
PR_Princess
Member
Reposting...since this is now 4 pages back!
I was was going to hold off till the dust settled and make my comments and observations to MikeB sometime later (I figure his head has already about exploded). But, just so that I dont forget, I am going to do some of them here.
1) I think that after 10 years we have reached the point that a single set of general unifying Bash rules would be of benefit. Kinda like the the AUP of the BASH. Overall I think this would make the Bash simpler to understand for the participants and easier and more fun for the Contest Chairs. (Sorry Mike...more work for you!
)1a) I believe that one of those rules should be that ALL contests rules are outlined and published mid January. If there were any questions about a contest, they could be hammered out/fixed before the contest started. I also believe that it could help with the back end loading of contests (which drives the prize staff nuts BTW - DAMHIKT!
:drink.1b) I think another rule should involve consistency of voting. i liked the new voting sub forum. It make it much easier to find the polls!!
But in some contest polls you picked one, others you picked three. Even though instructions were in each poll, with so many contests it was still quite confusing and I think we "lost" some votes.2) Contest Banter - I love reading that!! Next to looking at pens, that is one of the things that I enjoy most about the BASH.. This year there was a core group that made it really fun. But next year, maybe we could combine my two favorite things? What if in each contest, the Chair posted pen pics from prior years contests? Talking points yes, but it might also serve to inspire while not conflicting with anonymity and fairness in the current years contest.
3) Auctions - If you are not old enough to drink legally, you should not be allowed to bid.
4) Promotion - The Bash is one of the best parties on the net. It is a fund raiser, but it can also be a membership driver for the IAP. We (members) know about the Bash...well mostly. But what about others? Does anyone go to other pen forums or wood forums and talk about the Bash? Other ways? Why not? I think that not only we as a group should, but I also believe that it might be helpful if there was a BASH liaison member.
5) Calendar - Other than possibly posting it as a banner on top of the BASH forum...I still think D Oliver should be the new "calendar entry stealing varmint" (MikeR - we do have a year to think up a "better" name!:tongue
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Brooks803
Member
Scott please feel free to volunteer to run the contest next year. Then you can have everyone nit pick your IDEAS. I still don't get how you can think any of this stiefels imagination.
Jonathon all though I see your "intentions" it may be harder to implement than you realize. There was a member here that sold -gold, copper, and/or silver foil blanks through Ed. There was also another different member making and selling them to PSI. So you may not have as clear cut a commercial supply chain to Enforce. Can and how will you limit which of Exotic's Inventory can and cant be used? Or any of the other suppliers... If we have a new turner in my neck of the woods the nearest WoodCraft is over a 100 miles away. I will help hammer it out all I can with you.
And for the record I like "calendar/trivia entry stealing varmint":biggrin:
And for the record I like "calendar/trivia entry stealing varmint":biggrin:
Sylvanite
Member
As long as it ends in "varmint", fine :biggrin:I still think D Oliver should be the new "calendar entry stealing varmint" (MikeR - we do have a year to think up a "better" name!:tongue
Brooks803
Member
I totally agree with you Mike. It's not the easiest thing to make a clear distinction on. I appreciate the help if we do continue with the beginners contest for next year. Until we know for sure it'll be something to brainstorm, but not really invest much time in right now. Thanks!
mbroberg
IAP Activities Manager, Emeritus
Received by PM..............
Another suggestion: in order to avoid the flap over what is or is not "marketing", you might want to consider renaming the "Pen Marketing Photo Contest" to "Pen Photo Contest".
Another suggestion: in order to avoid the flap over what is or is not "marketing", you might want to consider renaming the "Pen Marketing Photo Contest" to "Pen Photo Contest".
mbroberg
IAP Activities Manager, Emeritus
Received by PM..............
The contests for the newer turners, put a cap on how much they can spend. Please do not take this the wrong way anyone, but the youth was 100% awesome pens and I would be proud to have any of them. I think most would agree they would be proud to make them. You have pens that would go for $100 bucks and they are competing against pens that would go for $20. I would like to see a more level playing field. If you have someone where they get maybe 10 slim lines every six months and that is a treat, due to their financial situation, that does not allow kids to have a fair shake. I think this would encourage more kids/parents to compete.
I saw where a couple people won the wood id contests more than once. I think have a section for daily contests, put the contests that are about $25 in prizes in one section and you can only win 1 time for the whole bash. This spreads the wealth.
Last year someone placed in beginners and advanced. To me that seems a little off. Instead of having the levels, have a Kitted, kitless, wood, resin, ect.
The contests for the newer turners, put a cap on how much they can spend. Please do not take this the wrong way anyone, but the youth was 100% awesome pens and I would be proud to have any of them. I think most would agree they would be proud to make them. You have pens that would go for $100 bucks and they are competing against pens that would go for $20. I would like to see a more level playing field. If you have someone where they get maybe 10 slim lines every six months and that is a treat, due to their financial situation, that does not allow kids to have a fair shake. I think this would encourage more kids/parents to compete.
I saw where a couple people won the wood id contests more than once. I think have a section for daily contests, put the contests that are about $25 in prizes in one section and you can only win 1 time for the whole bash. This spreads the wealth.
Last year someone placed in beginners and advanced. To me that seems a little off. Instead of having the levels, have a Kitted, kitless, wood, resin, ect.
Buzzzz4
Member
I would like to hear other's input on this one. I am too biased as my kids were in the contest and placed. Also, my kids will work with whatever rules there are. It seems as though this is falling along the same lines of talk about some of the other contests. It does limit imagination, but also can push imagination at the same time.
Haynie
Member
I think the person has a point, but when I began, granted I was not a kid, I started with pencils and higher end kits. I never liked the look of the slims. I am thinking there might be some kids who feel the same.
kovalcik
Member
I think when you think about the pen contests, you have to decide what you want the judging criteria to be other than pick the nicest pen.
For beginners it should strictly be fit and finish. Buy a kit, use a basic blank, wood or acrylic. It would be nice to take the pen kit and blank quality out of the equation altogether, but I think that is hard to do. Maybe specify a list of acceptable kit styles, or each year choose a single style of pen and everyone makes the same style. (7mm tube pens, single tube Sierra style, etc. )
Master class (Intermediate/advanced): Any kit, any blank, minimal mods allowed. Fit and finish is primary judging criteria, but appearance and other skills (segmenting, self cast blank) considered.
I would put Kitless and Segmented each in their own contest since each involves unique skills.
Segmented pens should be judged on the segmenting: tight joints, everyting on axis, pattern, and appearance.
I know nothing about kitless, but I am sure someone who does can come up with a criteria to judge these pens that makes sense.
Whatever you decide on, I feel the important thing is to have the judging criteria spelled out for each contest. And since each contest will look at different aspects and skills, there would be no issue with a beginner also putting an entry (not the same pen) into the segmenting or one of the casting contests if they choose.
And while it was said as a joke, a pen from a 2x4 is a pretty neat contest idea. I remember the pine pen PITH from a couple years ago. Some really nice pens came out of that.
For beginners it should strictly be fit and finish. Buy a kit, use a basic blank, wood or acrylic. It would be nice to take the pen kit and blank quality out of the equation altogether, but I think that is hard to do. Maybe specify a list of acceptable kit styles, or each year choose a single style of pen and everyone makes the same style. (7mm tube pens, single tube Sierra style, etc. )
Master class (Intermediate/advanced): Any kit, any blank, minimal mods allowed. Fit and finish is primary judging criteria, but appearance and other skills (segmenting, self cast blank) considered.
I would put Kitless and Segmented each in their own contest since each involves unique skills.
Segmented pens should be judged on the segmenting: tight joints, everyting on axis, pattern, and appearance.
I know nothing about kitless, but I am sure someone who does can come up with a criteria to judge these pens that makes sense.
Whatever you decide on, I feel the important thing is to have the judging criteria spelled out for each contest. And since each contest will look at different aspects and skills, there would be no issue with a beginner also putting an entry (not the same pen) into the segmenting or one of the casting contests if they choose.
And while it was said as a joke, a pen from a 2x4 is a pretty neat contest idea. I remember the pine pen PITH from a couple years ago. Some really nice pens came out of that.
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plano_harry
Member
If cost is an issue - have an under $10 cost contest.
I love the youth pen contest. Anytime you have a youth contest, you will probably have the issue of youth competing with adult assisted pens, just like Pinewood Derby. We can try to regulate fairness, but it will be difficult.
As to the Beginner Beautiful Pen - I would hate to see a lot of limits put on this, other than pen turning experience. Creative freedom produces some really interesting pens that are fun to vote on and a lot of beginners like to try their hand at segmenting so that shouldn't be limited as long as the entrant did the segmenting. Wood or commercial acrylic seems reasonable in that class in any way you can slice it.
This year's rules seemed reasonable enough and I think the contests were well run and fun. The entries were outstanding and it was difficult to make a choice in most every contest. What is lost in voting for the pen you like the best? The one you wish you could make; the one you wish you had. Doesn't fit and finish become a non-issue at this level?
I love the youth pen contest. Anytime you have a youth contest, you will probably have the issue of youth competing with adult assisted pens, just like Pinewood Derby. We can try to regulate fairness, but it will be difficult.
As to the Beginner Beautiful Pen - I would hate to see a lot of limits put on this, other than pen turning experience. Creative freedom produces some really interesting pens that are fun to vote on and a lot of beginners like to try their hand at segmenting so that shouldn't be limited as long as the entrant did the segmenting. Wood or commercial acrylic seems reasonable in that class in any way you can slice it.
This year's rules seemed reasonable enough and I think the contests were well run and fun. The entries were outstanding and it was difficult to make a choice in most every contest. What is lost in voting for the pen you like the best? The one you wish you could make; the one you wish you had. Doesn't fit and finish become a non-issue at this level?
commercialbuilder
Member
I think that all pen entries into any contest should be a fully working pen or noted as non working if it is to be sold. I bought one of the collaborative challenge pens and it was a non functioning pen when it arrived which surprised me a little. The pen had a nib but no apparatus to hold ink or refill the pen, i may can use ink cartridges but it does not really look like they will work. The pen is very well done and in am glad that the IAP got the money, just a little surprised.
mbroberg
IAP Activities Manager, Emeritus
I'm sorry if that is the case. I must admit that I did not take a look at the inside of the pen before offering it for auction. I am, however, somewhat baffled as to why the pen would not accept ink. At it's core the pen is a modified Roman Harvest kit. Being a commercially available kit I would think that it would accept ink. Is there any way you could provide greater detail as to why it will not? Pictures perhaps?
jeweler53
Member
It should take any standard cartridge. I don't understand.
Twissy
Member
First of all Mike congratulations on winning the auction with such a generous bid! I missed the auction or I would have bid myself!
I was responsible for making the "front end" of the pen, so I am concerned that it is non functional. It was designed and tested to accept a Schmidtt converter, and was supplied with one by me. That said the parts have traveled many thousands of miles and gone through a few pairs of hands so things could have gone awry somewhere!
I must confess I didn't test fit a cartridge in it. It should accept one, but there are occasions where some custom made sections don't.
If you would like to PM me your address I'll gladly send you a converter.
Alternatively, if you think this won't cure the problem let me know and you can send the front end of the pen to me and I'll ensure everything is hunky dory.
Regards
John
Here is what I shipped:
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commercialbuilder
Member
Thanks for the explanation, this is what I thought might have happened. Now that I know what it was suppose to have I can order one to complete the pen.
I said I was a little disappointed because I really like the pen and now can make it work so I am really happy I purchased it. Thanks to all the members of the team that made the pen, I think it is really special.
Again thanks to all the people that work so long and hard to make the bash a great event.
I said I was a little disappointed because I really like the pen and now can make it work so I am really happy I purchased it. Thanks to all the members of the team that made the pen, I think it is really special.
Again thanks to all the people that work so long and hard to make the bash a great event.