Pass it Forward Activities

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mbroberg

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I've had another member step up and volunteer to run another Pass it Forward activity. Before we start another one I want to get some opinions on a potential issue with how these things play out.

In my mind the emphasis should be on quality over quantity. Pass it Forward Activities always start out in small flat rate boxes and as the box progresses it grows. Every time the box grows so do the shipping expenses. Members participating south of the half way point get stuck paying higher and higher shipping.

Is this a problem? Are the expanding boxes being filled with materials of equal quality of those that are being taken out?

Removing a $25 blank and replacing it with 5 or 6 blanks worth $5.00 each is not, in my opinion, what should be happening. That $25 blank should be replaced with another blank worth $25 or more (preferably a little more). Several blanks, say 3 blanks worth $10 each should be replaced with 3 or fewer blanks valued at a total of $30 or more. The size of the box should not be increasing, the value of the box should be.

Once the box has reached the end of the line it will be returned to the member who started the activity. It should be worth significantly more than it was when that member filled the original box. That could be considered the reward for the hastle of running the event; or the completed box could be sent out again to increase even further in value; or the box could be offered up as a prize in the BASH or some other IAP activity.

These are just my thoughts. What are yours. After all, these are your activities, not mine. Are things just fine with the Pass it Forward activities the way they are now or should we tighten up the rules to make sure that the quality of the boxes, not the size of the boxes, increase.

Please post opinions in this thread.
 
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stonepecker

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I will post this for the members that won't.

Everyone has the right to their opinion. What you 'value' might not mean the same 'value' to someone else. I personally, can't afford a single $25 blank. I am one of the people that if I take 5 things out.....I put back at least 7. Hopefully, I have increased the value of the box. But now that it has been pointed out.......maybe I haven't.
I really don't know what to say to that.
As far as the postage, That is one of the reasons I won't be in a box that is going overseas. Again, I can't afford that. I really wish I could.

With that all in mind, I try to pick the box I think I will enjoy the most doing. The one I can afford to play in. If the rules are something I can't handle, then I will choose to sit out.

Like I said, everyone has rights.......even in choosing to play.
 
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mbroberg

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I will post this for the members that won't.

Everyone has the right to their opinion. What you 'value' might not mean the same 'value' to someone else. I personally, can't afford a single $25 blank. I am one of the people that if I take 5 things out.....I put back at least 7. Hopefully, I have increased the value of the box. But now that it has been pointed out.......maybe I haven't.
I really don't know what to say to that.
As far as the postage, That is one of the reasons I won't be in a box that is going overseas. Again, I can't afford that. I really wish I could.

With that all in mind, I try to pick the box I think I will enjoy the most doing. The one I can afford to play in. If the rules are something I can't handle, then I will choose to sit out.

Like I said, everyone has rights.......even in choosing to play.

So you are saying that things are fine as they are?
 

Cmiles1985

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I'll offer up my personal opinion of the contents in the box I received (if I offend anyone, I don't know what to tell you). A MFRB showed up that was full to the brim. Unfortunately, there were partially assembled pens/projects, there was an assortment of blanks and kits (both pens and not pens). I communicated with the person shipping the box to me, and he threw some stuff in that I expressed interest in, and I attempted the same for the fellow following me. In my opinion, the box looked like it accumulated people's abandoned projects and junk drawer items. I enjoyed the concept and anticipation of the PIF box. I also enjoyed the items I pulled out and being able to pass along some interesting items. I think for future events, it needs to be clarified on quality over quantity. Who knows how much money was given to USPS to send along "junk drawer" contents and abandoned projects.

Pardon my rant :)
 
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I think it worked out just fine this last time. I received a LFRB bursting at the seams, took out a few items that, to me at least were of very good value, put in more items which I thought were equal or greater in value, taped it up to hopefully avoid any loss, and sent it on its way. I do agree about overseas shipping it is very expensive and the participants should either have a choice - send it on to a US member or to ANY member. Or at the least understand they may be required to send the package international. The size of the box doesn't bother me, I guess I figured it would grow rapidly along the way!
 

stonepecker

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****For myself only****

The first time a person joins in something like this, it is a learning experience.
I believed that we all had fun but if someone didn't, then they know what to expect next time.
I personally was happy with the box I recieved and I know that I put "NO JUNK" into the one I sent out.
Was the 'value' the same? To me, it was. To the next person? I really don't know....I am not a FMR.

If you want to put 'rules' to any future boxes, I have no problem with that.
Just make sure that they are CRYSTAL CLEAR to everyone.
 
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mbroberg

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Every activity has rules, otherwise no one would know what to do. The question is, what should the rules be?

Value of a pen turning related item is not hard to determine. If it is an item you bought you should have an idea what you paid for it. If you don't know what it is worth just look the item up on any of the vendor sites to see what they are selling for.

Like I said before, if the majority of those who participate in these activities are happy with things the way they are then there is no reason to change anything. I participated in my first PIF Activity recently and my experience was much like Cmile1985. I got a great big box full of unimpressive stuff. Like Stonepecker, pointed out, I learned what to expect. As Activity Manager I think I have to find out if I'm alone in my thinking or if others are disappointed in what they receive. If not, then things don't need to be changed. If so, they do. Your IAP, Your Activities, Your rules. :wink:
 

SteveG

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For the most part, I agree with what was stated by the OP. I have had one experience participating in the "game", and by the time it got to me, it had graduated to the Medium size box. As observed already, much of the content was low value "filler"... "A MFRB showed up that was full to the brim. Unfortunately, there were partially assembled pens/projects...In my opinion, the box looked like it accumulated people's abandoned projects and junk drawer items." I did pull and add some items, and did upgrade the overall value of the "box", and did have fun!

I think we can have the enjoyment that comes with doing this activity while restricting the box to the Small FRB. (Alternatively, the individual event can be designated as a "Medium FRB" event, starting that way and being restricted to that size.) I will most likely participate in these in the future only if the box size is set and cannot be changed at the whim of any other participant.
 

mbroberg

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So Mike, how about a poll to get some sense of direction for future events?

Polls have their place but I don't think one is necessary here. Peoples comments on the topic should give us a pretty good sense of direction.
 

mbroberg

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What do you think would happen if each recipient photographed the entire contents of the box on its arrival. (before removing or adding any items)

I don't know. Currently most PIF Activities have recipients photograph what they took out and what they put in. Participants do not always comply for one reason or another. Not everyone is able to post a photo.
 

Edgar

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It's been about 5 years since IAP has had a PIF game, so this was a learning experience for most of us - especially for me since this was my first activity to run.

Overall, I have been quite pleased with the results - to be sure, there have been a few glitches and there are some things I would do a little differently next time. I would not hesitate to participate in another PIF game if someone else organizes one and I would also be willing to host another one in the future.

Here's some of my thoughts:

1. I have no complaints with the quality of the boxes that I received at the end & I would have been perfectly happy if the boxes had stayed at the original SFRB size. I tried to contain the boxes to that size, but perhaps I didn't try hard enough. I like the idea of declaring an SFRB or MFRB size and requiring that the size not be changed.

2. 25-30 players per box seems to be about the right size group. However, if international is involved, I would reduce it to 15 or so. The way I handled the international component was to group all international players by country & start the box out going to a foreign country (Australia in this case) then have it routed to another country (Canada in this case) then on to the USA for completion of the game. This approach minimized the number of people who had to bear an international shipping charge. The downside of this approach is that it also minimized the number of people who might get some interesting blanks from a foreign source. I'm not certain which approach is better - pros & cons both ways.

3. I know some folks were disappointed that the next person or two after them did not post photos, so they don't know who got their goodies or how well they were appreciated. I tried to encourage everyone to post photos, but I think that I would be inclined to make it a requirement next time and make it clear that if you are unable or unwilling to post a photo of what you take out, then don't play.

4. Enforcing quality over quantity is tough, because that's largely in the eyes of the beholder, and there was a wide range of experience in the players, so I can appreciate that what seems to be a great blank to one person might not seem so great to someone else. I kinda put this in the same light as our PITH games where some people get a much nicer pen than the one they make. Still, I think I could have done a better job in this area -- in particular, I will probably make a point to focus on this in each PM that I send out in future games when I send out the address routings.

5. Above all, the rules for this or any other activity need to be clear and enforced. I probably left too much to personal discretion this time & I would certainly tighten up the box size & photo rules - perhaps some others as well.


Above all, I appreciate all the feedback & suggestions that I have received during these games and I want to personally thank everyone who participated.

Edgar
 

ChrisN

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The PIF that I was a part of started out with a SFRB. I think in the rules it was stated that the box shall remain a SFRB. When it got to me, it was in a flat rate envelope. The contents were fine, though - I didn't notice any "half completed projects" in it. It's always nice to have photos of what was taken out, too - it makes you feel good to see something you've put in get claimed by a new owner.:biggrin:
 

Cmiles1985

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I was actually a little embarrassed of the stuff in the box. To be wise, I put the goodies I placed in the box in a plastic bag marked "stuff from cmiles1985"

Edit: that may be one way of keeping it fun: knowing who actually put what into the box and seeing how far certain folks' items make it.
 
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skiprat

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Maybe a link to this thread should be posted in the next PIF thread. :wink:
I think most people would get the message now.

I think the most fun activities and contests etc, are those with the least rules. :biggrin: You are always going to get some that will 'short change' the group, but it would be sad to stop doing them because of a couple of bad apples.
 

skiprat

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Gee Chuck, what the hell kind of logic is that???:rolleyes: You been mixing your Mobil with DNA again???:biggrin:

I feel it's a good idea to plan on getting short changed when you sign up. Then... when it happens you won't be disappointed :biggrin:

It's all supposed to be fun. So....why not make the best of it?
 

Dalecamino

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Gee Chuck, what the hell kind of logic is that???:rolleyes: You been mixing your Mobil with DNA again???:biggrin:

I feel it's a good idea to plan on getting short changed when you sign up. Then... when it happens you won't be disappointed :biggrin:

It's all supposed to be fun. So....why not make the best of it?
It sounded simple to ME :biggrin: Problem solved sort of :biggrin:

Yes....the DNA works :wink: There again, is a good example of my logic. I knew when I took the cap off that plastic bottle, it would end up on the bench. I wasn't disappointed :biggrin:
 

Edgar

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The PIF that I was a part of started out with a SFRB. I think in the rules it was stated that the box shall remain a SFRB. When it got to me, it was in a flat rate envelope. The contents were fine, though - I didn't notice any "half completed projects" in it. It's always nice to have photos of what was taken out, too - it makes you feel good to see something you've put in get claimed by a new owner.:biggrin:

If the flat rate envelope was adequately filled, I would consider that to be consistent with the SFRB rule. In fact, the starter boxes were all SFRBs full to the brim and stuffed inside a flat rate envelope with all the space around the box packed with more blanks.

That's typically the way I ship blanks - it's actually a little cheaper than the SFRB rate & I can pack a little more into the package. The rules also stated that it was acceptable to pack the box into a flat rate envelope to save a little on shipping, so whether or not a box was actually inside the envelope is no big deal in my opinion.

In retrospect, perhaps my cramming extra blanks into the originaly packages that way was partially responsible for encouraging others to add more stuff causing the boxes to swell to MFRB size in fairly short order. I'm still mulling about that one.
 
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Edward Cypher

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I have to agree with Chuck (dalecamino) this is for fun. One persons "junk" maybe treasure to someone else. This was my first pass-it-forward game and I am a novice pen turner so I did not take the pen and just passed it on, my choice. I also passed on some nice looking pinecone blanks because I did not think my skill level would do them justice. I did however take a number of what looked to be acrylic cut-offs because I wanted to try some segmenting, these no doubt would probably be viewed as less valuable to many however they were exactly what I was looking for. I know blanks can have a value as denoted by our vendors but that does not mean they are necessarily worth that to every turner. In my opinion we need to be careful using the term value and worth. I put in some Hawaiian wood which here in Colorado is very rare but I have bought it at various places and now have an abundance so the value to me is not that high does that reduce what a vendor sells it for??

I do agree the box size should stay the same and one should be able to choose whether to send it out of the US or not. Because the cost is something to keep in mind.

Whatever is decided I would play again and follow whatever rules are put in place.
 

KenV

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I was not a direct participant -- but was one of those who was interested in watching the game being played. It was interesting to watch the actions and reactions as the process evolved and the different participants engaged in the activity.

From the perspective of looking in from the bleachers, and not being one of those on the playing court:

We should consider making sure the intent is on the word "Game" and focus on assuring it is "interesting and fun" to both the participants and to those watching it happen.

It may be useful to put a theme or focus on the game --- much the same as the Pen-In-The-Hat activities tend to do. There could be a fun one to use "UFO" as a focus for example -- Un-Finished-Objects.

I am not especially likely to be on the playing court, but I really did enjoy watching the process and the overtone that went with it.

Keep them a possibility -- and lets manage expectations along the way.
 

Brooks803

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Like many others have stated...as the size of the box increases...the quality of product decreases.

Even with that it'll always be hard to keep the box a consistent size. That's mainly bc not everyone mills their blanks to perfect 3/4"x5" sizes allowing the box to be maxed out. Some will put in 7/8" or even 1" and then the length is different and won't fit properly. That's not even counting in the "unfinished projects" or random kit parts that get tossed in either. Plus the box isn't exactly a blank swap and also meant for little helpful tools or gizmos. Those take up space as well.

IMO you would have to do different types of swaps. Instead of an open "anything goes" box we'd have boxes strictly for blanks (wood, resin, whatever) and a different box for tools, gizmos, and parts. That way the boxes can be maxed out with what goes in them.

One way to help keep it to a single sized box is put a restriction on how large a blank can be.

I know by signing up for these boxes you are agreeing to ship to the next person in line. Whether it's domestic or international. However, when the person after you is international and the box size changes you've gone from already knowing you'd have to spend $20-$25 for a small flat rate up to $45 for a medium. Not cool at all. Plus if the person declares the value over a certain amount ($25 I believe) the recipient now has to pay an outrageous tax on the box. That could become so high that the international recipient refuses to accept the box due to the high dollar amount attached to it. I wouldn't blame him! Imagine if he did pay and once opened it was the "junk drawer" variety as others have mentioned. These are all things we need to keep in mind.
 
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Cmiles1985

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I know that my posts from yesterday were quite negative. I don't want y'all to think that I'm a "Bitter Billy" about it. The anticipation of receiving the box was great! It truly was like Christmas! Then you feel like Ralphie opening a pink bunny suit. I realize it's a game, and supposed to be fun. I also realize that sometimes it's difficult to place your prized possessions in a box that you're giving away. I'll dig through my photos in a little while to see if I have pictures of what showed up. There was some cool stuff in there: a wire burning set, Hut polish, some cool blanks from around the world and an array of bushings. However, there was a gallon ziploc worth of partially completed items, some plain blanks that weren't unique, miscellaneous kits that were incomplete, etc.
By all means, I signed up to ship to whomever followed me. Had my recipient been international, I'd have been communicating with them about the contents of the box before paying that much to ship!
 

Edgar

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I would like to be involved in this how do I put my address in

There are no current PIF games (except for the one that is about to wrap up).

Just keep watching the Activities Manager forum for opportunities to sign up for various activities as they come up - pen exchange (PITH) games occur quite often - the PIF games are less frequent.

There will be a LOT of things going on during our birthday BASH celebration in Feb!
 

Edgar

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I know by signing up for these boxes you are agreeing to ship to the next person in line. Whether it's domestic or international. However, when the person after you is international and the box size changes you've gone from already knowing you'd have to spend $20-$25 for a small flat rate up to $45 for a medium. Not cool at all. Plus if the person declares the value over a certain amount ($25 I believe) the recipient now has to pay an outrageous tax on the box. That could become so high that the international recipient refuses to accept the box due to the high dollar amount attached to it. I wouldn't blame him! Imagine if he did pay and once opened it was the "junk drawer" variety as others have mentioned. These are all things we need to keep in mind.

Cost was a major consideration in the way I handled the international players this time. You can ship an SFRB or a padded flat rate envelope internationally for about $20 and it can contain up to 1 pound 14 oz of material for that price. (SFRB & regular or padded flat rate envelopes are all the same price internationally, but each is priced differently for domestic shipping - go figure.)

I carefully selected blanks & items to max out the size of a stuffed SFRB/padded envelope and stay just within the 1 lb 14 oz limit and started it out to Australia. The Australian player who had to ship it to Canada had to make similar packaging decisions to keep the shipping costs to Canada reasonable & similarly for the person who shipped it from Canada to the USA.

As far as declarations are concerned - I declared the package to be worth $50 for insurance purposes but only $10 for customs purposes so the recipient wouldn't get hit with tariff charges.
 
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I think we've got a pretty good idea what to do and what not to do for the next one. Few rules that we stick to. No obvious "junk" (If you think it might be junk, then it probably MIGHT be!). Agreeable on international shipping or ship the box out like Edgar did. Keep the box size similar. Possibly have a SFRB PIF, a MFRB PIF, and possibly a LFRB PIF game. HAVE FUN! I know I did just waiting for it to arrive!
 

mbroberg

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I thank everyone for their input. We will leave it up to whoever steps forward to run future PIFs to decide what type of event he/she wants to run. I think the last ones run by Edgar went very well! The content and size of the box is just something that we need to keep in mind in the future.
 

BJohn

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This is my first post in this thread as I just saw it. I have read most of the replies. Only 2 things I can say.

1. Edgar I found the PIF you ran was a blast and IMHO could find nothing wrong. Only disappointment was the lack of pictures. The items I saw in the box when it got to me I thought were just find and believe I replaced with items of the same quality.

2. I thought you had some one that was willing to start another round, we'll I wonder if they are still willing to after reading some of the comments from yesterday's post's.

One last thought. I thought the whole point of the PIF was for us to get to know each other and for some fun. To me if you are looking to get some high dollar blanks and kits. Then why don't you just go buy then and let the rest of us have fun with it.
 
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