Contest Skill Levels - Please Read Then Vote!

[Bob Wemm]

Smitty is on the right track, I totally agree.

Beginner - absolutely standard wood kit pen, possibly """SLIMLINE""""
Intermediate - totally modified standard kit,
Advanced - Whatever,
Expert, Master, Open, Freestyle whatever takes your fancy.

That way a Beginner can enter any contest that he/she feels capable of competing in.

Bob.

Smitty and invisibleman have said basically what I proposed on the 28th Feb.
I think the only way to keep the contests fair is to "Catagorise" the pen, not the maker.
If the beginner had to submit an "unmodified standard kit wood pen", and so on for the next level Etc.
IMHO that is the only way to go.

Bob.

You would have soooooooooooooooooo many catagories it probably would not have enough people to run them.

Nah - you have only as many as you want....you don't have to cover every possible catigory. 5 or 6 would probably give everybody who wanted to enter a pen an opportunity to do so.

 

[mredburn]

Right now a beginner can enter any competition they feel they want to try. They are not held back to only the beginner competition. Yes if you limit the competition to a basic pen only, one kit only, wood only, no segmenting, no anything, then only the very beginers will enter and the pens will show no originality other than choice of wood.

 

[OOPS]

I voted for "other" and here's why. I agree with most of what InvisibleMan posted. The advanced penmakers know who they are, and those who think they are already there can submit in that division if they feel so inclined.

It seems to me that the concern is in the beginning division, where someone with substantial skills can dominate a competition, taking the award when they clearly belong in the higher divisions. This disheartens the true beginners when they see an entry that is substantially better than their own.

The other problem is that there is no way for those with special circumstances to appeal to get into the beginning division, due to length of membership, lets say. I have seen numerous posts from those who signed up on this site but didn't purchase their equipment until well later. Personally, I signed up to the IAP more than a year before I actually purchased my lathe! Should this make me or the others ineligible for the beginner competitions? (I no longer qualify as beginner, but I am using my past experience as an example.) There should be a way for a true beginner to explain their circumstances, in order to participate. Another way to limit the participation to true beginners would be to make the award or prize something that is of lesser value, so that the achievement is awarded, but others are not tempted to fake a beginner status just to win a nice prize.

This is a tough subject, as I saw some incredible pens on display in the Youth competition, and I believe the winner was only 7 yrs. old! Now, is she still a beginner?

Just my two cents worth.

 

[dabbler]

Smitty and invisibleman have said basically what I proposed on the 28th Feb.
I think the only way to keep the contests fair is to "Catagorise" the pen, not the maker.
If the beginner had to submit an "unmodified standard kit wood pen", and so on for the next level Etc.
IMHO that is the only way to go.

Bob.

No to the options in the poll for all sorts of reasons and most are already expressed in this thread.

Yes to categorizing pens not the maker as criteria for contest types (as in the "origin" of the finished product and/or materials used - ie kit, modified slightly, mixed media, highly modded, franken, kitless).


EXCEPT - Only entrant category I would apply is Novice vs Open

Novice entrants - those who have never entered an IAP comp or never entered "this particular category" or have never progressed past round one one voting.

Open entrants - everyone (including Novice).

It's possible that not all comp categories lend themselves to Novice and Open, and some may not attract many entrants if too mnay criteria are applied.

 

[Bob Wemm]

Right now a beginner can enter any competition they feel they want to try. They are not held back to only the beginner competition. Yes if you limit the competition to a basic pen only, one kit only, wood only, no segmenting, no anything, then only the very beginers will enter and the pens will show no originality other than choice of wood.

A Beginner should be able to enter any category, if they are skilled enough, no argument there.

However, for the beginners Category, standardising the pen places all the entrants on a level field. Obviously skill will sort out the winner, not the WOW factor. If anyone feels that a ""Slimline"" is below their dignity then enter another category. Simple.

Bob.

 

[hunter-27]

Right now a beginner can enter any competition they feel they want to try. They are not held back to only the beginner competition. Yes if you limit the competition to a basic pen only, one kit only, wood only, no segmenting, no anything, then only the very beginers will enter and the pens will show no originality other than choice of wood.

A Beginner should be able to enter any category, if they are skilled enough, no argument there.

However, for the beginners Category, standardising the pen places all the entrants on a level field. Obviously skill will sort out the winner, not the WOW factor. If anyone feels that a ""Slimline"" is below their dignity then enter another category. Simple.

Bob.

I'm starting to think the advanced folks should be limited ti a "slimline" kit and lets see what "superior" skills can do.

 

[Ed McDonnell]

Let's assume there is a slimline, wood only, no advanced technique contest. Isn't that going to really be a "who can find / buy the prettiest piece of wood" contest?

If the actual pens were being submitted, you might be able to pick the better made pens out of the pack, but with the pictures posted? I don't think so.

And either way, it would still ultimately come down to who found / bought the prettiest wood.

I think the beginners are capable of way more (and should be asked to do more) than just competitive shopping for blanks.

Ed

 

[Ed McDonnell]

I'm starting to think the advanced folks should be limited ti a "slimline" kit and lets see what "superior" skills can do.

I think a contest with the only rule being "must use all parts of a slim kit" and no other restrictions / requirements would be a fun contest to participate in.

Ed

 

[mbroberg]

Let's assume there is a slimline, wood only, no advanced technique contest. Isn't that going to really be a "who can find / buy the prettiest piece of wood" contest?

If the actual pens were being submitted, you might be able to pick the better made pens out of the pack, but with the pictures posted? I don't think so.

And either way, it would still ultimately come down to who found / bought the prettiest wood.

I think the beginners are capable of way more (and should be asked to do more) than just competitive shopping for blanks.

Ed

Someone could have the most beautiful piece of wood in the world but screw up one or more of the three Fs of penmaking, Form, Fit, Finish. Whenever I am a judge or vote that is what I am looking for along with any special characteristics required of the entry.

 

[Ed McDonnell]

[
Someone could have the most beautiful piece of wood in the world but screw up one or more of the three Fs of penmaking, Form, Fit, Finish. Whenever I am a judge or vote that is what I am looking for along with any special characteristics required of the entry.

Maybe it's just me, but I can't always really judge the F,F & F by looking at the pictures that get posted. Form is probably the easiest, but fit and finish can be really tough. A picture that looks like it might have good Fs in a forum picture (especially with a good camera used skillfully and a little photoshop help) might be seen to be a real stinker if you were able to hold it. And a well made pen could look horrible in a bad picture.

I guess that's just the nature of online competitions though. Bottom line, I was fine with the way things were this year and I'll be fine with whatever way the people who volunteer to run things want to do it next time. I'm just grateful that there are people willing to give up signficant personal time to make this all possible.


Ed

 

[mredburn]

The reason you have to submit the actual pen to the PMG is because the photos can hide or be manipulated in the way the pen is presented.

 

[Smitty37]

Right now a beginner can enter any competition they feel they want to try. They are not held back to only the beginner competition. Yes if you limit the competition to a basic pen only, one kit only, wood only, no segmenting, no anything, then only the very beginers will enter and the pens will show no originality other than choice of wood.

A Beginner should be able to enter any category, if they are skilled enough, no argument there.

However, for the beginners Category, standardising the pen places all the entrants on a level field. Obviously skill will sort out the winner, not the WOW factor. If anyone feels that a ""Slimline"" is below their dignity then enter another category. Simple.

Bob.

I'm still convinced that the catagories should ignore skill level - it is too subjective. Is a highly skilled turner who happens to have never turned a pen a beginner? Probably not because he/she has all of the knowledge needed to turn material round and to size.

There are really not a lot of catagories - we have two tube component sets, single tube component sets and make your own without a kit. We have several different sizes of tubes and components.

We have wood blanks, we have solid man made material blanks and we have tubed special materials blanks.

There are a number of choices of finishing - right now using CA seems to be very popular but there are other choices.

I certainly think we can come up with catagories that will take in all skill levels.

All judging will be subjective because beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[CabinetMaker]

I'm still convinced that the catagories should ignore skill level - it is too subjective. Is a highly skilled turner who happens to have never turned a pen a beginner? Probably not because he/she has all of the knowledge needed to turn material round and to size.

There are really not a lot of catagories - we have two tube component sets, single tube component sets and make your own without a kit. We have several different sizes of tubes and components.

We have wood blanks, we have solid man made material blanks and we have tubed special materials blanks.

There are a number of choices of finishing - right now using CA seems to be very popular but there are other choices.

I certainly think we can come up with catagories that will take in all skill levels.

All judging will be subjective because beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I think you have to take skill level into account at some point. There was a contest here a while back that the Gisi brothers entered into and pretty well cleaned up. I don't think that there is much question that they are very advanced in their skill. I wouldn't stand a chance against them. But, if the categories are broken into beginner, intermediate and advanced, then the beginners can get some feed back on how they are doing. If they enter a category that has no distinctions they find their pens don't make the cut and may have no idea why so they don't learn anything.

I agree that skill levels are subjective, but I also think that they are important while learning. Think of it this way, Master, Journeyman and Apprentice. You wouldn't expect the Apprentice to be able to compete with the Master.

 

[ren-lathe]

I'd personally get rid of the beginner, intermediate, advanced, etc.....

Contest 1: unmodified ball point. Wood. No modifications, No segmenting
Contest 2: Rollerball/fountain pen kit. No modifications.
Contest 3: Segmenting contest - a specific kit only - maybe all Zens or something.
Contest 4: Color casting
and so on.....


I believe the beginners will be the major players in the unmodified ball point contest, and even if an advanced turner chooses to play, there is only so much they can do under the rules. Probably very little advantage if any at all. Personally, I doubt any advanced pen makers would enter. I think skill levels would naturally gravitate towards the proper contests.

I have to agree with this method. Not every one does all the different things well so how do you place someone who is very good at casting bit has never done a segmented pen?

 

[mbroberg]

Received by PM:

++++++++++++++++++++++++
Here are my thoughts

If a member has competed in any class of competition for 2 years not consecutive mind you. then that would eliminate them from any beginner level. As well, if someone has made it into a final round of judging two years not consecutive. However entry into two different classes in one year and made it into the final round in both will be the factor to not be allowed into a beginner class.

That is it, I don't see any other point beyond this really.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I responded and asked him this:

Why not consecutive? So if a member competes in any level of competition for two years consecutively they could still compete at the beginners level?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
He responded:

Reason behind that it not being consecutive is that things happen. Economy, Job, even moving not being able to get to ones lathe, injuries/health. that is the main reasons behind that thought.

 

[BSea]

Received by PM:

++++++++++++++++++++++++
Here are my thoughts

If a member has competed in any class of competition for 2 years not consecutive mind you. then that would eliminate them from any beginner level. As well, if someone has made it into a final round of judging two years not consecutive. However entry into two different classes in one year and made it into the final round in both will be the factor to not be allowed into a beginner class.

I agree with this in principle. But I think that someone should be able to compete at the beginner or intermediate level until they win at that level. Maybe they can compete till they win twice. Why discourage/disqualify a person who comes in 4th on their 2nd attempt. And once someone has won intermediate (either once or twice), then they can only compete in advanced or the freestyle. But once there, they can compete in those categories every year regardless if they have won or not.

And I do think that there should be some constraints on the type of kit used in the contest. I really don't think it's fair to compare a jr gent 1 to an emperor junior. I think too much weight is given to the kit vrs the pen makers work.

 

[hunter-27]

Received by PM:

++++++++++++++++++++++++
Here are my thoughts

If a member has competed in any class of competition for 2 years not consecutive mind you. then that would eliminate them from any beginner level. As well, if someone has made it into a final round of judging two years not consecutive. However entry into two different classes in one year and made it into the final round in both will be the factor to not be allowed into a beginner class.

I agree with this in principle. But I think that someone should be able to compete at the beginner or intermediate level until they win at that level. Maybe they can compete till they win twice. Why discourage/disqualify a person who comes in 4th on their 2nd attempt. And once someone has won intermediate (either once or twice), then they can only compete in advanced or the freestyle. But once there, they can compete in those categories every year regardless if they have won or not.

And I do think that there should be some constraints on the type of kit used in the contest. I really don't think it's fair to compare a jr gent 1 to an emperor junior. I think too much weight is given to the kit vrs the pen makers work.

This not directed to the person who made this post ,but rather to EVERYONE.


GIVE SOME CREDIT TO THE JUDGES! If I were to make public (which I WILL NOT) the names of my judges I think you would all trust their judgement.

 

[Smitty37]

I'm still convinced that the catagories should ignore skill level - it is too subjective. Is a highly skilled turner who happens to have never turned a pen a beginner? Probably not because he/she has all of the knowledge needed to turn material round and to size.

There are really not a lot of catagories - we have two tube component sets, single tube component sets and make your own without a kit. We have several different sizes of tubes and components.

We have wood blanks, we have solid man made material blanks and we have tubed special materials blanks.

There are a number of choices of finishing - right now using CA seems to be very popular but there are other choices.

I certainly think we can come up with catagories that will take in all skill levels.

All judging will be subjective because beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I think you have to take skill level into account at some point. There was a contest here a while back that the Gisi brothers entered into and pretty well cleaned up. I don't think that there is much question that they are very advanced in their skill. I wouldn't stand a chance against them. But, if the categories are broken into beginner, intermediate and advanced, then the beginners can get some feed back on how they are doing. If they enter a category that has no distinctions they find their pens don't make the cut and may have no idea why so they don't learn anything.

I agree that skill levels are subjective, but I also think that they are important while learning. Think of it this way, Master, Journeyman and Apprentice. You wouldn't expect the Apprentice to be able to compete with the Master.

If you were talking about plumbing a 40 story apartment complex I would agree - if you're talking about fixing a leaking faucet I'd disagree- the apprentice ought to be able to do that as well as a master. I can probably do that as well as a master and I hate plumbing and I'm not very good at it.

Now there are certain parts of our hobby, mostly associated with custom blank creation, that require a great deal of skill and different skills - they can be, and sometimes are, done by people who wouldn't know how to turn on a lathe. I can make a beautiful pen using their skill and minimal skill in the actual turning.

 

[CabinetMaker]

If you were talking about plumbing a 40 story apartment complex I would agree - if you're talking about fixing a leaking faucet I'd disagree- the apprentice ought to be able to do that as well as a master. I can probably do that as well as a master and I hate plumbing and I'm not very good at it.

Now there are certain parts of our hobby, mostly associated with custom blank creation, that require a great deal of skill and different skills - they can be, and sometimes are, done by people who wouldn't know how to turn on a lathe. I can make a beautiful pen using their skill and minimal skill in the actual turning.

But pen making and plumbing are somewhat different. One is a trade, the other an artistic endeavor. There are a basic set of skills for creating a pen that we all need to learn. Making a blank round. Both the apprentice and the master can do it but it takes the apprentice longer. As the apprentice progress so to does their skill at the basic set of skills.

In artistic fields, traditionally, to move from apprentice to journeyman you have to prove a certain set of skills. To go from journeyman to master, you have to produce your master piece. That is where the term originated: when a journeyman wanted to move up he submitted a sample to the other masters and, if they approved it, he became a master and the submitted sample became known as his master piece.

I think that principle applies to contests here. The best example recently was the junior pen contest for kids under 14. It is not fair or reasonable to judge the work of a 13 year old against somebody like Bill Gisi. They are in completely different categories of pen maker. One is just learning the basic skills while the other has mastered those and is now working on incorporating other materials into a pen.

For the contest results to be a good guide to where your skills currently stand, breaking the contest into skill categories makes sense. The apprentice can judge where they are relative to the other apprentices and when they feel ready, can enter their piece into the journeyman contest to see if they are accepted there.

But I fully agree that apprentice-journeyman-master are difficult to define and somewhat arbitrary. Even so, the idea of skill levels in contests seems to me to be a good way to judge where we are within our chosen craft.

 

[BSea]

Received by PM:

++++++++++++++++++++++++
Here are my thoughts

If a member has competed in any class of competition for 2 years not consecutive mind you. then that would eliminate them from any beginner level. As well, if someone has made it into a final round of judging two years not consecutive. However entry into two different classes in one year and made it into the final round in both will be the factor to not be allowed into a beginner class.

I agree with this in principle. But I think that someone should be able to compete at the beginner or intermediate level until they win at that level. Maybe they can compete till they win twice. Why discourage/disqualify a person who comes in 4th on their 2nd attempt. And once someone has won intermediate (either once or twice), then they can only compete in advanced or the freestyle. But once there, they can compete in those categories every year regardless if they have won or not.

And I do think that there should be some constraints on the type of kit used in the contest. I really don't think it's fair to compare a jr gent 1 to an emperor junior. I think too much weight is given to the kit vrs the pen makers work.

This not directed to the person who made this post ,but rather to EVERYONE.


GIVE SOME CREDIT TO THE JUDGES! If I were to make public (which I WILL NOT) the names of my judges I think you would all trust their judgement.

I guess I should have made it clear. I was talking about contest that had a popular vote, not a judged contest. And I have no problem with a judged contest. I do however wish that the critiques of the winning pens would be give. So we know what they were looking for and what set a particular pen above the others. I know it's not realistic to have this done with every entry, but it would be nice to see it done for the winning entries.

 

[DigBaddy72]

You can make an uber complicated ranking system that consumes all kinds of time and effort. At the end of the day, someone who wants to game the system to get themselves placed at a level below their abilities so they can win a prize will find a way to do it.

Seems simpler and just as effective to let people self select, with the exception of anyone having won beginner or intermediate contests not being allowed to compete at the same (or lower) level again.

An alternative would be to have juried ranks in IAP. People submit pens (the real pen, not a picture) to the jury of their choice (beginner, intermediate or advanced) and they are accepted or rejected (as either over or under qualified). Given the posts about judges and judging that seems to follow every event here, I can imagine how that would work. Being a juror would likely be a thankless task.

Ed

I like the idea of sending in the pen for judging. Then the IAP can either sell those pens to raise funds for the group, or use them as a charity thing.

In other competitions I've been in (not related to wood, but creative none the less), the categories were topic specific. The only difference was that there was a group of 16 or under and then everyone else, regardless of skill level or expertise. This of course led to a LOT of domination year after year by those who were "pros".

I also like the idea of being automatically put into the next "higher" category in next year's event if you placed in this year's event. (ie. if you were a top 5 or 10 finisher in beginner, then next year you can't compete in beginner, but must move to intermediate).

I also believe that categories may need to be a bit more detailed, like only use one piece of wood (ie no segments) plus original kits only, etc....

Just my $.02 (adjust for inflation as needed)

 

[mredburn]

Quote"I like the idea of sending in the pen for judging. Then the IAP can either sell those pens to raise funds for the group, or use them as a charity thing. "

Unfortunately that is not possible, we have an international membership and they could not await the rules, make the pen, and ship it in time to make the contests. Not without draging the contests out even further.

 

[jttheclockman]

Smitty and invisibleman have said basically what I proposed on the 28th Feb.
I think the only way to keep the contests fair is to "Catagorise" the pen, not the maker.
If the beginner had to submit an "unmodified standard kit wood pen", and so on for the next level Etc.
IMHO that is the only way to go.

Bob.

You would have soooooooooooooooooo many catagories it probably would not have enough people to run them.

Nah - you have only as many as you want....you don't have to cover every possible catigory. 5 or 6 would probably give everybody who wanted to enter a pen an opportunity to do so.

Not the way you guys are explaining it because within each catagory you can add segmenting use of acrylics, use of metals and so forth. I think there would be too many catagories. my opinion.

 

[darrin1200]

Personally I think there should only be 2 "skill level" competitions. However, rather than fixed criteria, there should be rule strictures.

Some basic guidelines
A- Only one entry per individual per skill competition.
B- the entry must have been made specificly for the competition
C- the entry must never have been shown anywhere prior to the competition.
D- each pen may only be entered in one skill competition.

Beginner - must adhere to the following
A- open to any IAP member.
B- must use a simple standard kit, unmodified. ie Slimline
C- the blank must be either a simple wood or a standard basic acrylic.
D- may not enter any other skill competitions. (This category is for people who do not feel they are ready for other catagories. This also prevents people who are ready for other catagories from entering beginner just because they can. There is nothing stopping a person from trying another catagory this year and coming back to beginner again next year as long as they don't place.)
E- if you place either 1st, 2nd or 3rd, you may never enter the beginner again.
F- if you place ever place 1st, 2nd or 3rd in any skills competition, you may not enter beginner.

Intermediate - must adhere to the following
A- open to any IAP member.
B- must be based on a purchased kit. Only very minor modifications allowed.
C- any blank is permited
D- the individual may enter any other competition.
E- if the individual ever places 1st, 2nd or 3rd in any skill competion, other than beginner, then they can never enter intermediate again.

Advanced - should not be a catagory because at this level, the skills become more specific. These skills are more utilized and showcased in the variety of other skills competions that we have. ie segmenting, casting, modification, kitless, etc.

A competition that would better personify the "Advanced Penmaker" would be an open competion. The same basic guidelines apply, however anything else goes. Almost like a Miss Universe pagent for pen makers. I do think that the guidelines for each competition should be made available as soon as possible. This would allow people months to work on their entries, as long as they don't show them anywhere brfore the competition. In future bashes, if the guidlines for the various competitions could be laid down, people could start working on next years entry right after the bash is over.

Just my 2¢. I am really looking forward to next year.

 

[Smitty37]

Smitty and invisibleman have said basically what I proposed on the 28th Feb.
I think the only way to keep the contests fair is to "Catagorise" the pen, not the maker.
If the beginner had to submit an "unmodified standard kit wood pen", and so on for the next level Etc.
IMHO that is the only way to go.

Bob.

You would have soooooooooooooooooo many catagories it probably would not have enough people to run them.

Nah - you have only as many as you want....you don't have to cover every possible catigory. 5 or 6 would probably give everybody who wanted to enter a pen an opportunity to do so.

Not the way you guys are explaining it because within each catagory you can add segmenting use of acrylics, use of metals and so forth. I think there would be too many catagories. my opinion.

True there could be a lot of catagories --- but there doesn't have to be. We could have a catagory for left-handed Lithuanian barbers only - but we wouldn't have to.
Basing the catagories on a pen style or type doesn't imply that we have to cover every style and type. Just the ones we want to cover.

 

[mredburn]

darrin
Your basic quidelines with the exception of (B) made specifically for the Bash are in place. We currently allow a pen that is destined for a buyer that has met the other criteria. We had a couple pens that were custom orders not shown prior entered in competition this year.

 

[Bob Wemm]

darrin
Your basic quidelines with the exception of (B) made specifically for the Bash are in place. We currently allow a pen that is destined for a buyer that has met the other criteria. We had a couple pens that were custom orders not shown prior entered in competition this year.

Now we are getting somewhere, I agree entirely with you Mike, Exception B should not specify Contest only.

At this point I am not a pen turner, I made my first one for this Contest and I have been turning for nearly 9 years, so I feel that all the other means of determining the "Beginner" qualifications are unfair to most members.

I reckon darrin has got it pretty well sussed and is the best solution offered to date, after all that is what we are trying to achieve isn't it. A fair solution to CATEGORISE beginners.

Bob.

 

[Sylvanite]

E- if the individual ever places 1st, 2nd or 3rd in any skill competion, other than beginner, then they can never enter intermediate again.

Unless the competitions multiply across skill levels, then this would freeze people out of participating. If we do split all contests by skill, then there will be few entries in each. I don't think either is the desired outcome.

In the interest of full disclosure, though, I did particpate in many contests last year and this year. If I get bumped out of all those contests, then I won't have much left to do - and I really enjoy playing.

Regards,
Eric

 

[hunter-27]

Unless mandated to me by admin, I will never exclude anyone other than the first place winner in the beginner, thus they would move up to intermediate. 1st place in an intermediate level should move up. I'm not even sure that is what I really want. Advanced, freestyle, modified, Russ Fairfield, and so forth should never get any such limitation, IMO. I would think anyone who wins a beginner level contest would not want to enter it again but would instead challenge themselves and join a different contest.

 

[mredburn]

My thoughts were that the beginning turner contests would exclude entrants that had more than x amount of time Turning not necessarily time as a member. So next year unless your only turning 1 pen a year. You would have moved on. We could make the intermediate top 2 or 3 move into the advanced classes to continue both turnover in the intermediate pool of turners and force the winning turners to better themselves to be competititive in the advanced contests.

 

[Smitty37]

My thoughts were that the beginning turner contests would exclude entrants that had more than x amount of time Turning not necessarily time as a member. So next year unless your only turning 1 pen a year. You would have moved on. We could make the intermediate top 2 or 3 move into the advanced classes to continue both turnover in the intermediate pool of turners and force the winning turners to better themselves to be competititive in the advanced contests.

I don't see enough change to avoid the same problems we've been having and I don't see any way to catagorize turner's skill such that we won't always have the same problems.....but I'll leave the debate now, I have voted.

 

[plano_harry]

Let the beginners have their contests. I think last year the cutoff was 6 months experience. I was new last year and appreciated the opportunity to compete. I thought the age brackets were a nice concession this year.

I was ready to move up this year and wanted to enter the intermediate contest, but my pen had some laser engraving, so I had to go freestyle. But my pen was a standard kit and wasn't competitive in the freestyle contest. I chalk it up to bad "contestmanship" I wasn't a fit in either contest and wasn't willing or had the time to turn something especially for a contest rule set.

Beyond the beginner level, it probably should be by class of pen and not experience. Perhaps:
Slims
Mechanism kits
Capped kits
Kitless
Segmented
Casting
Tube casting
Freestyle
Decal
Laser

It would be nice to have rules/classes further in advance so people could have time to plan their entry.

 

[Bob Wemm]

I'm with you Smitty,
I've had my 2 dollars worth of input and have cast my vote so is time for me to back away as well.

Bob.

My thoughts were that the beginning turner contests would exclude entrants that had more than x amount of time Turning not necessarily time as a member. So next year unless your only turning 1 pen a year. You would have moved on. We could make the intermediate top 2 or 3 move into the advanced classes to continue both turnover in the intermediate pool of turners and force the winning turners to better themselves to be competititive in the advanced contests.

I don't see enough change to avoid the same problems we've been having and I don't see any way to catagorize turner's skill such that we won't always have the same problems.....but I'll leave the debate now, I have voted.

 

[nava1uni]

I think that the level should include all of the above as well as the fact of whether the turner has won any other contests on IAP.

 

[darrin1200]

E- if the individual ever places 1st, 2nd or 3rd in any skill competion, other than beginner, then they can never enter intermediate again.

Unless the competitions multiply across skill levels, then this would freeze people out of participating. If we do split all contests by skill, then there will be few entries in each. I don't think either is the desired outcome.

In the interest of full disclosure, though, I did particpate in many contests last year and this year. If I get bumped out of all those contests, then I won't have much left to do - and I really enjoy playing.

Regards,
Eric

My intent here was not to cut out all competitions. My idea was that by winning one of the more advanced skill competions, you will have demonstrated that you have moved beyond the beginner or intermediate level. It would leave a fair playing field for those still developing their basic skills.

 

[lyonsacc]

Beginners -
Should it be for people new to pen turning or for people that are more casually involved with the hobby? One denotes a period of time/effort involved and the other a level of commitment to develop this skill (I don't like the wording of that, no offense is intended).

The 1st & 3rd (mine):biggrin: place beginners made segmented pens, and I think we are both validly "beginners" based on the current rules. With a lot less time and effort I could have produced a pen from "simple wood". But why? Aren't contests supposed to push us beyond what we have done or tried before?
I would not have tried another segmented pen (my first attempt for the PITH ended with 6 trashed blanks) without this contest. Also, the more restrictive the rules become the greater affect someone's photography equipment and skills would already have on the contest (I think they already have a significant affect).

I like most of the other suggestions . . .

And I think the BASH was great!

 

[Hendu3270]

I'd personally get rid of the beginner, intermediate, advanced, etc.....

Contest 1: unmodified ball point. Wood. No modifications, No segmenting
Contest 2: Rollerball/fountain pen kit. No modifications.
Contest 3: Segmenting contest - a specific kit only - maybe all Zens or something.
Contest 4: Color casting
and so on.....


I believe the beginners will be the major players in the unmodified ball point contest, and even if an advanced turner chooses to play, there is only so much they can do under the rules. Probably very little advantage if any at all. Personally, I doubt any advanced pen makers would enter. I think skill levels would naturally gravitate towards the proper contests.

This makes the most sense to me by far and I agree, the chips would just sort of fall into place at that point.

 

[Hendu3270]

I'd personally get rid of the beginner, intermediate, advanced, etc.....

Contest 1: unmodified ball point. Wood. No modifications, No segmenting
Contest 2: Rollerball/fountain pen kit. No modifications.
Contest 3: Segmenting contest - a specific kit only - maybe all Zens or something.
Contest 4: Color casting
and so on.....


I believe the beginners will be the major players in the unmodified ball point contest, and even if an advanced turner chooses to play, there is only so much they can do under the rules. Probably very little advantage if any at all. Personally, I doubt any advanced pen makers would enter. I think skill levels would naturally gravitate towards the proper contests.

This makes the most sense to me by far and I agree, the chips would just sort of fall into place at that point.

Oh, and IF it's still based on a perceived skill level next year, then I think a winner in one category should step up their game and enter the next level contest. However, if it's based on the pen kit, then it should be open to all.

 

[Dave Turner]

Any particular competition should be designated for novice, intermediate, or advanced skill level. The entrant then self-decides whether they fit that level. The first, second, and third place winners and between 3 to 7 honorable mentions are selected from the entries. All these people are considered to have mastered that level of skill and will only be permitted to enter into the next higher level for all future competitions.

Also consider having a separate professional category for those who make more than 25% (or % of your choice) of their earnings through sales of their pens.

 

[mbroberg]

This poll was posted on 3/4/13. As of 3/10/13 @ 7:30pm EST 128 people have voted in this poll. The poll is getting additional votes each day but they are slowing down. I want everyone to have the opportunity to provide a vote in this poll before I close it. If you have not done so yet, why not take a second and cast a vote?