Realistic Cigar SNAFU.. Please help:(

[Flush1974]

Well by dumb luck my first one turned out pretty good, and since then everything has gone wrong. I can't seem to drill either a straight hole or a proper hole, NONE of my pens are lining up properly. I have followed the instructions that Wood Butcher so graciously made, and still my pens only fit right when twisted on only one way. You have to line up the threads just right or it becomes off round.

I am using:
Rikon 12-16 lathe
60 degree live tail
4 Prong Drive center
Heavy Duty 1/2" Keyed Lathe Drill Chuck #2 MT
or E32 Collet

I round the blank, part it with a parting tool on the lathe. Then I find the center of the two halves with a Robert Larson 800-2875 Plastic Center Finder and use either a collet I just purchased or a 4 Jaw Lathe chuck and drill the appropriate holes. I follow the rest of the instructions and this is what I get 9 out of 10 times.

Man..... I've tried everything, bought every tool I can think of to fix this. I'm just tired of wasting nice wood. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!!!

This is what it looks like when the right thread of the triple start is lined up propperly.

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This is what it looks like when it's not.

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Lined up propperly.

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Not so much.

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Thanks for looking. Please help me unjack my universe.

 

[Mr Vic]

Could be one or the other or both are off center/out of round. How are you turning the two sections?

 

[Flush1974]

Could be one or the other or both are off center/out of round. How are you turning the two sections?

I glue the Buckeye and the wood of choice together into about a 6.5" blank. Mark the center of each end and turn it as one piece. Once it's round I part it to the proper length per the instructions from Wood Butcher.

 

[Mr Vic]

Pulled up the instructions. If you were turning on a mandrel I'd say it was bent or you had out of round bushings. Are your head and tail stock aligned? Off a bit could make the pen a bit elliptical. If you have calipers available try check the pen to see if it is truly round. Just kind of tossing some ideas out. Never tried one but now may have to.

 

[its_virgil]

The threads spear to be multiple start threads so the cap must be started at only place to align the way you want...double, triple, or quad start threads.

As for out of round there are several causes. Sending is often ignored but sanding can cause perfectly round pen barrels to become out if round because of the grain o opposite sides of the pen barrel.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

 

[Flush1974]

The threads spear to be multiple start threads so the cap must be started at only place to align the way you want...double, triple, or quad start threads.

As for out of round there are several causes. Sending is often ignored but sanding can cause perfectly round pen barrels to become out if round because of the grain o opposite sides of the pen barrel.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

Don,

Thanks for the reply. I'm not sure what you mean by the double triple or quad thread start. The threads are from a kit and most kits are triple start. The first pen like this I finished had triple threads and even though the grain didn't align everything was round. Now every cigar pen I complete is only round when I glue the tubes in and screw it together.

 

[magpens]

As I understand it, you use the Robert Larson to find the centers to drill for the tubes after you have rounded the blanks.

That's OK if the rounded blanks have not been turned down to size.

I would leave them larger than desired, do the drilling, glue the tubes in, trim the excess end wood to the brass tube ends, and then mount the blanks between centers for the turning down to size.

On my lathe, I put a cone in the headstock and a live center in the tailstock and put the drilled (and tubed) blank between the cone and the live center.

That process ensures that your turned blank is centered on your brass tubes.

I would glue the "ashes" on as the last step, or the last step before finishing.

I may not be completely understanding everything you wrote.

 

[Flush1974]

As I understand it, you use the Robert Larson to find the centers to drill for the tubes after you have rounded the blanks.

That's OK if the rounded blanks have not been turned down to size.

I would leave them larger than desired, do the drilling, and then mount the blanks between centers for the turning down to size.

On my lathe, I put a cone in the headstock and a live center in the tailstock and put the drilled (and tubed) blank between the cone and the live center.

That process ensures that your turned blank is centered on your brass tubes.

I actually use the Robert Larson twice. I use it to find the center of the square blank to ensure I'm turning it between centers. Then I turn it round, and part it with a parting tool. I again use the Robert Larson to find the center of the rounded parts to drill the holes.

I have tried to glue the tubes in and screw them together and turning it to final dimensions again on the lathe and still can't get it to always be round. I was starting to think maybe it's the slop in the drilling as indicated in the pictures. It looks to me that the tubes are not center once glued. Does this have anything to do with the parts not aligning round?

 

[magpens]

If you use the Robert Larson a second time after turning the blanks down to size, your "second centers" will never coincide with the "first centers".

You should do the turning down to size only after the actual centers have been unalterably defined, the holes have been drilled, and the tubes have been glued in.

I apologize if I am not fully understanding.

If you are using a collet or a 4-jaw chuck when you do the drilling of the already rounded blanks you should not have to mark the centers ... the collet or chuck will define the centers for you.

 

[Flush1974]

If you use the Robert Larson a second time after turning the blanks down to size, your "second centers" will never coincide with the "first centers".

.

That would explain why I had so much instability yesterday when I tried again. I could tell something was off but I couldn't figure out why.

So I should measure center ONCE, turn to desired dimension and just collet it and drill. Right?

 

[More4dan]

Yep, but always center drill before drilling with a bit. I also have had better luck with a normal bit vs. a Brad point bit. If the tail stock and head stock are not aligned you will get a larger hole that may not be straight. Too big a hole can lead to a crooked or off centered tube.

Easy to check alignment. Put a center in both ends and put a small metal rule between them. As you bring them together the rule will tilt and show the misalignment. I've spent hours with a test bar and gage trying to get it perfect only to bump it off. The 2 center test works about as well to where I can't tell the difference.

Also try a back in block when sanding especially soft woods.

Hope you get it sorted.

Danny


Sent from my iPhone using Penturners.org mobile app

 

[Wood Butcher]

As has been mentioned the multi start threads are most likely the culprit. While applying slight pressure on the two pen parts (pushing them together) slowly unscrew them and when you feel the thread disengage retighten. If it is a triple start thread you may have to do this 3 times until it aligns correctly. The only solution I have come up with so far is to use one of the magnetic pen kits, Vertex has worked pretty well no threads. There is a "follow up" tutorial in the library on this.
Something I have thought of but not tried yet is, drill the entire blank on the lathe from the "ash" end, this will require a long drill bit. This is done with the square blank held in a 4 jaw chuck. Turn round between a spur center and a live center, inserted into in the drilled hole, then glue on the Buckeye ash part and finish the turning.
Alternatively, find a blank that is a foot long and don't take it out of the 4 jaw until it's ready to part.
There is still a lot of room for improving the process and, in my mind, that's a lot of the fun.
WB

 

[its_virgil]

One starting position, two starting positions, three starting positions or four. Most kits are triple start so only one starting position will align the grain the way you aligned it during assembly.

I'm not sure I understand the rest of your delima. Sorry.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

The threads spear to be multiple start threads so the cap must be started at only place to align the way you want...double, triple, or quad start threads.

As for out of round there are several causes. Sending is often ignored but sanding can cause perfectly round pen barrels to become out if round because of the grain o opposite sides of the pen barrel.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

Don,

Thanks for the reply. I'm not sure what you mean by the double triple or quad thread start. The threads are from a kit and most kits are triple start. The first pen like this I finished had triple threads and even though the grain didn't align everything was round. Now every cigar pen I complete is only round when I glue the tubes in and screw it together.

 

[Skie_M]

I think that your inserts are a little cockeyed when they go in ... tighter tolerance there may help a lot.

Also, have you ensured that you are sanding your blanks flush with your brass tubes, and getting them properly squared up?


Don ... his problem is that only one starting position will make the halves of the pen mate up perfectly flush all the way round and with very little visible seam ... the other 2 starting thread positions end up with the halves of the pen going off kilter with a noticeable ridge and angled gap.

 

[magpens]

I would say that you should do oversize rounding first, before you tube and drill.

Then do the end-trimming, drilling and tubing.

Then do the turning down to correct size by turning-between-centers.

If you turn down to the correct size before drilling, then the material wall thickness will be small and you run the risk of your drill breaking the wall of the blank material.

For example, if you are doing a Sierra Twist, and you turn it down to the bushing size of 0.472" and then drill with a 27/64" drill bit ( = 0.422") you can see that the wall thickness is only 0.5*(0.472 - 0.422) = 0.025"

You can get into big trouble that way. (In practice I use a Z size drill bit which is 0.413" when I am doing Sierras - but that does not change what I am talking about).

I hope you get my point.

If you use the Robert Larson a second time after turning the blanks down to size, your "second centers" will never coincide with the "first centers".

.

That would explain why I had so much instability yesterday when I tried again. I could tell something was off but I couldn't figure out why.

So I should measure center ONCE, turn to desired dimension and just collet it and drill. Right?

 

[Dale Allen]

Steve, your on the right track. Don't give up.
I have a suggestion or two. Maybe 3
First, once you find the center of the square blank, keep that one until after you have drilled for the tubes. I use scrap pieces on the end of the good wood and the ash wood so my blanks are typically about 9" long when I begin to turn them round. Once the tubes are glued in I use the tube as reference to center and set the other end to a new center.
Second, the tubes need to fit onto the hole at a very close tolerance. If they do not you may end up with the tube sitting inside the blank at a slight angle, meaning it is not parallel with the outside of the blank. If you then turn the outside by holding onto the outside, as in a collet or 4-jaw chuck, the tube will be off center.
Last, the images indicate the hardware centerband is not sitting at the center of the recess cut into the wood. This is what indicated to me that the tubes were not positioned in the exact center with reference to the outside.
And one final note about my process. When I drill the blank half, I check it for turning dead center by using a dial indicator. This way I know the hole is in the center of the blank, at least on this end. I have attached a picture of the setup. The blank half is of course drilled from the cut end. Also, to do this, I first have to be sure the blank was turned to a consistent diameter so it sits correctly in the chuck.
I hope some of this helps.
Dale

 

[HowieM]

I had a similar problem until I realized that the threads have three start points. Only one of these start point will result in the grain and blanks lining up. So your chances are 2:1 that you will have a misalignment. Maybe there are some single thread components that would solve this problem.

 

[Dale Allen]

The triple start threads have little to do with the alignment. True that if the pen is assembled with tubes not dead center of the blanks then they may only fit nice in one of the 3 starting positions. On mine, the blanks are even on any of the three but only one will be a match to the grain. That is why I prefer to use burl wood so that the grain still looks good on any of the starts.

 

[Flush1974]

Steve, your on the right track. Don't give up.
I have a suggestion or two. Maybe 3
First, once you find the center of the square blank, keep that one until after you have drilled for the tubes. I use scrap pieces on the end of the good wood and the ash wood so my blanks are typically about 9" long when I begin to turn them round. Once the tubes are glued in I use the tube as reference to center and set the other end to a new center.
Second, the tubes need to fit onto the hole at a very close tolerance. If they do not you may end up with the tube sitting inside the blank at a slight angle, meaning it is not parallel with the outside of the blank. If you then turn the outside by holding onto the outside, as in a collet or 4-jaw chuck, the tube will be off center.
Last, the images indicate the hardware centerband is not sitting at the center of the recess cut into the wood. This is what indicated to me that the tubes were not positioned in the exact center with reference to the outside.
And one final note about my process. When I drill the blank half, I check it for turning dead center by using a dial indicator. This way I know the hole is in the center of the blank, at least on this end. I have attached a picture of the setup. The blank half is of course drilled from the cut end. Also, to do this, I first have to be sure the blank was turned to a consistent diameter so it sits correctly in the chuck.
I hope some of this helps.
Dale

I'm going to try all of this! I do need to ensure the ends of my lathe are dead center to start, so I will check their alinement today. I am also going to try to drill holes with a smaller bit so there is not as much slop. I'm pretty new to all this stuff, so I'm not experienced enough to solve tight tolerances issues. I've been using my lathe to drill I'm not sure I've been getting everything spinning straight.