LARGER multi-start Tap & Die set?

[chugbug]

When Mike put together the second tap & die order a few weeks ago (Part Deux), I was hoping it was for a new size. My heart sank when I heard it was the same size as before (but happy for the guys that missed the first one!).

That size was a 12mm diameter set. I'd like to get a larger diameter set (of mulit-start of course). Anyone know where I can get a larger set or whether it possible to put together another group buy for one (assuming there are others that do or would use a larger size that is)?

I'd like to get a set that is about 14mm diameter (but don't know what the pitch should be though).

Any thoughts?

Thanks...John

John E. Brady
East Berlin, PA
www.jebspens.com

 

[Texatdurango]

Wow, that would allow for some pretty beefy pens, ceretainly larger than any kit pen I am aware of. Any particular reason you want to make that large of a pen?

I had a customer who has arthritus really bad and wanted a large fat bodied pen so I made him one and using my metal lathe I cut some 13mm x .75mm threads for the cap to body threads. He was happy but that was one fat pen!

 

[chugbug]

Hi Tex, thanks for posting. I don't want it for kit pens - I want it to use on my custom fountain pens. But to answer your question, 14mm threads wouldn't be that large, but then again would depend on the style of pen you were using it on, and the thread treatment-- the difference in the transition from the barrel to the threads. I use the larger diameter thread and make the threads the same diameter or close to the same diameter as the barrel instead of having the abrupt change in diameter from the barrel to the threads.

On most of the kit pens I think mfg's just choose to use smaller thread sections on them to cut down on cost and the number of different parts they have to make. I think it compromises the look of the pen. Especially when they put those little nibs on them. The smaller diameter thread and nib sections on some make them look too much like an out of place add-on instead of being a part of the pen. Also makes them look top heavy (good example would be the Majestic Jr). But maybe that's just me.

I make ALL of my own FP parts, so I can make all my parts to the size I need for the style pen I want. It doesn't make for as beefy of a pen as you might imagine. To the contrary, it makes for a very comfortable pen (I've even sold some to female clients who purchased them for themselves). If you look at some of the very high-end fountain pens like Bexley, Conklin, Conway Stewart, all of those have barrels well larger than 14mm and have similar treatments with thread sections that are the same diameter as the barrels. Conway Stewart's Churchill, Winston and Bard FP's all have 15mm diameter barrels with that thread treatment.

I mostly use this thread treatment on my pen styles with what I refer to as "oversized caps" (vs "smooth caps" styles where the cap and barrel are the same diameter and a smooth transiton from cap to barrel and needs that steped transition to the threads--- but that line has blured over time). On these the barrel diameters are typically about 14 to 14.5mm.

I'd just like to be able to add a multi-start thread feature to these pens, and thought 14mm would be about the same size as the SAE I'm using now. But that's one of the reason I posted here - to ask what other used (and hopefully not have to pay the full cost of mfg all by myself). But I didn't think I was alone in using larger size threads. I was really hoping that someone already had some, so I find that rather interesting that no one else might not.

I attached a sample pen to this post. If you would like to see other examples (and the dimensions), go to the link below. The two lower groups of pens at the bottom (the orange, and the two solid colored cap pens) . Those styles have larger threads (larger than the M12).

So I guess this mean I'm on my own?

Thanks...John

John E. Brady
JEB's PENs
www.jebspens.com

Link to the fountain pens referenced above:
http://www.jebspens.com/fp_custom.htm

 

[Texatdurango]

...........
So I guess this mean I'm on my own?
http://www.jebspens.com/fp_custom.htm

You know John, you got me to thinking (and that hurts this close to nap time!) I guess I got so focused on my smaller "bulb filler" type pens that I got myself in a rut and started making all my pens basically the same diameters give or take a few thousandths except for a couple totally custom pens.

I visited your site and liked what I saw, especially the "Grass clipless pen" where you incorperated one of the fountain/rollerball nibs, it looks sharp in the wider body and your nib sections are really nicely shaped.

If you get the contact info from Michael Redurn and contact the company inquiring about a larger multi-start tap and die set I might be interested if the prices run along the same lines.

So.......... that's two of us so far! Maybe more will follow if the facts/prices were layed out. If you don't have the time to do a group buy, I might take on the task but it would REALLY eat into my fishing time!

Thanks for the eye opener!

 

[BigShed]

Depending on price I would be interested as well.:good:

 

[wade45]

Pending the price, Yes!!!

 

[mredburn]

You will need to get 12 commitments to get the price of a set down to around $100.00 +/- for just the tap and dies. Shipping from them, Paypal and dispersal shipping would have to be added on top. Different sizes and thread pitches make a difference in price. Just before Joe started the first group buy I had just gotten a quote on the m12x.75 triple lead and it was $5.00 higher than the m12 x.8 triple lead. I will be glad to give you the contact info when your ready.

 

[Timebandit]

I would be interested pending price

 

[mrburls]

I might be interested in a set.

Keith "mrburls"

 

[rstought]

I'd be interested as well...

 

[dtswebb]

I would also be interested in purchasing a set.

Matthew

 

[chugbug]

Hi Guys, thanks. Glad there are others interested.

Mike - thanks for chiming in with your pricing info from before, it was helpful to get an idea of where we'd have to be at for an order.
I've never done a group buy before, so would definately need some help on putting it together if there are enough interested and proceed.
You help and experience would be appreciated.

Tex - Understand the need to balance woodworking with the fishing... always a problem (if we just didn't have to waste all that time working)!

What about the 14mm size? Does that work for you guys? As I said in my original post, I suggested a 14mm because it is about the same size (dia) as the SAE I'm using now. I don't have access to a standard 14mm tap & die set, so I'm basing the size on how the dimensions on the new 12mm set worked out. On the new 12mm die, I get finished dimensions just under the 12mm (I get a thread OD of 11.89mm/.468"). On the tap, I use a 7/16" /.4375") drill size for the hole (11.113mm based on my conversion chart). If the finished dimensions of the 14mm die works out the same, the finished thread OD would be just under 14mm or about .55". On the tap, if the die dimensions work out to that, the drill size should work out to use a 33/64"/.5156" drill for the hole (13.097mm on my conversion chart) - same size I'm using now for the SAE tap. Those sizes work OK for me. Unless anyone would want to suggest another size (diameter), I'll assume the 14mm diameter is OK for everyone else.

But what about the rest of the dimensions (pitch and # starts)? It would be nice to get feedback from another pen maker that may be using a similar thread size to be sure the sizes are right (and not coming up with another custom size).

Mike - How did you guys come up with the dimensions on the 12mm set you ordered? Did your vendor contact help you with them? Can they give you finished dimensions? My son told me to search for a"Finished size" tap & die chart, and it would tell me all I needed to know. But I couldn't find one.

Thanks again for eveyones interest. Any other ideas or suggestions would be welcomed!

Thanks...John

John E. Brady
JEB's PENs
www.jebspens.com

 

[chugbug]

One more thing... Reading the guidelines for the group buy, I see they recommend the coordinator be some that has been posting for a while and/or someone the other members are familiar with. I don't come to the IAP very often, I post on the FPN (www.fountainpennetwork.com) more frequently than I do here. So if Mike or someone else would want to take charge, so others would feel more comfortable, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

John

John E. Brady
JEB's PENs
www.jebspens.com

 

[mredburn]

I don't have a problem running another now that I'm about done with the other.

The thread pitch on the 12mm tap/die sets was determined earlier when they had a group buy way before Joe and I ran these. I believe it matched a particular pen kits threads.

It was interesting to note that the quotes I received were different for the different pitches. I asked specifically if it did matter, the reply yes it does.. I'm not sure why but maybe finer threads take longer to cut or are harder to make. I also asked them specifically if they had any recommendation as to thread size or pitch, thinking they might have previous experience and could give us some pointers on what would be cheaper to make or faster or better etc. Nope the reply was we don't use them we just make them. You have to tell us what you want and then we can quote you what it costs. They are really very helpful other than that aspect.

I like .75 or the .8 for pitch/thread size but in the 14mm a 1mm pitch may be the right size.

I will contact them Monday and start an inquirery

 

[BRobbins629]

Although I'm not interested in purchasing this set, I can tell you that the size, pitch, and number of starts was a copy of the El/Grande/Churchill set. The intention at the time of the very first buy was to be able to use some of the coupler components if desired as well as to go completely kitless. A coupler was sent to the e-taps.com factory on Poland and they measured and came up with the specifications. The first sets were about twice the cost what the current ones are.

As I have made many pens with the first set, I can offer some food for thought. The major issue I have faced is the ability to line up patterns. These are times when I wish it was a two rather than a three start. I have also made some quad start on my CNC and find the aesthetics a little less pleasing than triple start. If I were in the buy, I would increase the diameter and keep all other dimensions such as pitch the same.

The only other item to explore might be the rake angle. This was commented on in the very early days but not much since. One person in the buy suggested the rake angle was not optimal for plastic. I don't know what it should be, but perhaps the supplier could provide some insight.

 

[soligen]

I dont think I can justify the expense for another set, but based on my past research on taps & dies, please consider that becasue this is over 1/2" that you will most likely need a 1 1/2" die, so many people would need a new die holder. Also you should check that the tap shank is not over 1/2" as I'm guessing most of us only have a 1/2" chuck.

 

[gwd]

I'd be interested as well...

 

[chugbug]

Mike - thanks for taking the lead. Since you've done it before, it will help keep things going smoother. As for asking the supplier for suggestion on sizes, I guess they don't make suggestions in case it doesn't work out. This way, they can say they only did what was ask of them.

Bruce - thanks for your input - very helpful. Seems there is always someone willing to give criticism, but never any help (in regards to the guy about the rake).

If the die will be 1 1/2" diameter, and you don't have one, you can get it (or a set) at wttool.com (http://www.wttool.com/index/page/category/category_id/14647/). You can buy the individual sizes or a set of three. The 1 1/2" (P/N 0513-0007) is $11.95; the set (13/16", 1", 1 1/2" -P/N 0513-9980) is $25.95.

I don't know how the pitch is derived. Do you just picking one? I think the 1.0 would equate to about 25 tpi. I think that will look ok-- tighter than my current size. I Usually have 1/4" long threads. Compared to the M12-0.8, it would only be about 1 .5 less threads. For the larger size that would probably "look" very similar.

So far up to today with dtswebb being the last one to show interest, there would be 9 of us. I know one other person that might be interested. I'll email or PM him to give him the heads up.

Thanks again everyone...John

John E. Brady
JEB's PENs
www.jebspens.com

 

[mredburn]

I have just got off the phone with tapco. They should have a quote for us on the tap and dies late this afternoon. I requested a 1 inch round die in the price. I also gave them .8 thread pitch. I can have it redone at 1mm If thats what the group feels is the best thread pitch. This will get us started.

 

[soligen]

Bruce - thanks for your input - very helpful. Seems there is always someone willing to give criticism, but never any help (in regards to the guy about the rake).

Quite an odd statement, seeing as Bruce is the one that mentioned the rake. Not sure if you are referring to my post instead. I think both are simply providing info and not intending to criticize. I see providing Info as being helpful. Maybe you wanted more, but in my case, I simply provided what I new. I actually haven't seen criticisim in this thread (possibly with the exception of this post and your one comment)

 

[Lenny]

Bruce - thanks for your input - very helpful. Seems there is always someone willing to give criticism, but never any help (in regards to the guy about the rake).

Quite an odd statement, seeing as Bruce is the one that mentioned the rake. Not sure if you are referring to my post instead. I think both are simply providing info and not intending to criticize. I see providing Info as being helpful. Maybe you wanted more, but in my case, I simply provided what I new. I actually haven't seen criticisim in this thread (possibly with the exception of this post and your one comment)

Dennis, I think he was referring to a comment made long ago in an earlier thread about this size tap and die. :neutral:

 

[Curly]

You can put me down as a definite maybe for a set.

 

[soligen]

Bruce - thanks for your input - very helpful. Seems there is always someone willing to give criticism, but never any help (in regards to the guy about the rake).

Quite an odd statement, seeing as Bruce is the one that mentioned the rake. Not sure if you are referring to my post instead. I think both are simply providing info and not intending to criticize. I see providing Info as being helpful. Maybe you wanted more, but in my case, I simply provided what I new. I actually haven't seen criticisim in this thread (possibly with the exception of this post and your one comment)

Dennis, I think he was referring to a comment made long ago in an earlier thread about this size tap and die. :neutral:

Ahhh - that would explain why the statement seemed odd to me.

 

[drgoretex]

I'd be interested to participate as well.

Ken

 

[luke39uk]

I would be interested and willing to pay the extra to ship to the United Kingdom.
Bryan

 

[Borg_B_Borg]

I'd be interested as well.

It sounds like the group buy will be for a taper tap. I would suggest that we broaden the group buy to include both a taper tap and a bottoming tap. If we get at least 12 people interested in both, the extra cost for a bottoming tap will be only a little over $50. The advantages of having both a taper tap and a bottoming tap would be well worth the extra cost to me.

I'm sure the respective advantages/disadvantages of taper vs. bottoming taps have been discussed numerous times here before, but I think it's worthwhile to discuss them again. Keep in mind that I know next to nothing when it comes to machining in general and taps and dies in particular.

Taper tap advantages: it takes less torque to get the thread started. Less torque means less chance of breaking the cap when tapping. Secondly, the chances of having axial misalignment will be much less than starting the cut with a bottoming tap.

Taper tap disadvantages: The first is that the taper threads may show through in translucent/transparent materials. The second is that the cap may not hold its angular alignment because the partially cut taper threads will easily enlarge over time and the cap will eventually over-rotate and lose grain alignment with the pen barrel. The leading threads on the pen barrel will also wear and contribute to angular misalignment. Threads cut by a bottoming tap will have a much more certain stop and will be far less likely to lose grain alignment over time. Angular misalignment would bother me about as much as axial misalignment. If I am going to go through the trouble of making a kit-less custom pen, I want the grain alignment to last.

Basically the advantages/disadvantages of taper taps become respectively the disadvantages/advantages of bottoming taps. If I have both tap types, I can start the tap with a taper tap and finish off with a bottoming tap and get the advantages of both without any of their disadvantages. This is why I am willing to shell out $50 or so more for having both types of taps.

Steve

 

[Texatdurango]

Steve, All good points but I respectfully disagree that we need the extra bottom tap and my reasons are highlighted below in blue. Without getting into the technical differences and pros and cons of each type of tap in general applications, I am relying solely on my experiences using these taps to cut threads in the caps of pens mostly plastic or ebonite. Having made well over 100 pens using the "original" 12mm multi-start bottom (or plug) tap then recently, half a dozen pens using the "new" 12mm multi-start taper tap, I offer the following thoughts.

I'd be interested as well.

It sounds like the group buy will be for a taper tap. I would suggest that we broaden the group buy to include both a taper tap and a bottoming tap. If we get at least 12 people interested in both, the extra cost for a bottoming tap will be only a little over $50. The advantages of having both a taper tap and a bottoming tap would be well worth the extra cost to me.

I definately see an advantage to using the taper tap but in regards to cutting threads in the cap only, see absolutely no advantage of a bottom tap.

I'm sure the respective advantages/disadvantages of taper vs. bottoming taps have been discussed numerous times here before, but I think it's worthwhile to discuss them again. Keep in mind that I know next to nothing when it comes to machining in general and taps and dies in particular.

Same here so I am relying on my hands-on experiences.

Taper tap advantages: it takes less torque to get the thread started. Less torque means less chance of breaking the cap when tapping. Secondly, the chances of having axial misalignment will be much less than starting the cut with a bottoming tap.

I totally agree, the difference in starting the two taps mentioned above is day light and dark! With the tap held securely in the tailstock and aligned with the headstock, I don't see the chances of having axial misalignment a concern at all.

Taper tap disadvantages: The first is that the taper threads may show through in translucent/transparent materials. The second is that the cap may not hold its angular alignment because the partially cut taper threads will easily enlarge over time and the cap will eventually over-rotate and lose grain alignment with the pen barrel. The leading threads on the pen barrel will also wear and contribute to angular misalignment. Threads cut by a bottoming tap will have a much more certain stop and will be far less likely to lose grain alignment over time. Angular misalignment would bother me about as much as axial misalignment. If I am going to go through the trouble of making a kit-less custom pen, I want the grain alignment to last.

True, depending on the material used, the threads will show but the full depth threads will show a lot more than the faint partial threads so if one decides to use translucement/transparent material those are the downsides and using a bottom tap wouldn't change any of that.

I don't see the partially cut threads enlarging at all since the lower threads will never even touch them. In my opinion it is poor design to rely on the cap threads to stop the lower body from advancing or tightening into the cap. Instead, I rely on a shoulder inside the cap as a positive stop to the progress of the lower body. This way the lower threads never enter the tapering threads in the cap so there is nothing to wear out.

Basically the advantages/disadvantages of taper taps become respectively the disadvantages/advantages of bottoming taps. If I have both tap types, I can start the tap with a taper tap and finish off with a bottoming tap and get the advantages of both without any of their disadvantages. This is why I am willing to shell out $50 or so more for having both types of taps.

I still fail to see why switching to a bottom tap would be of any benefit.

Steve

This is posted in hopes of showing a differing view only not to start a debate over who is right or wrong! I personally would never use a bottoming tap in cutting threads in a pen cap so thought I'd share my reasons.

 

[chugbug]

First, I apologize if my earlier comment offended anyone here. My comment (made to Bruce) was not directed toward Bruce or anyone here. Nor was it intended to offend anyone here. I made the comment based on what I thought I read. Turns out I misread what Bruce said:

One person in the buy suggested the rake angle was not optimal for plastic. I don't know what it should be,...

I took it as the same person that criticized the incorrect rake (someone else NOT Bruce) also didn't make any suggestions as to what it should be-- and Bruce was pointing that out (that interpretation is what my comment was referencing: agreeing that it wasn't helpful for someone criticizing something that was done but not offering a recommendation). Again, I wasn't criticizing any recommendations anyone has made here. But even so, in retrospect, I should have left it slide and not comment. My apologies to you Bruce if you thought it was directed toward you, as it wasn't intended that way or anyone else that took offense.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

Mike / Pitch - Other than the difference in the TPI that I pointed out, I don't know how else the difference would equate on the larger size. If the difference between the two pitch sizes is only the space between the threads (TPI), if the 0.8 works OK on the smaller threads, it would work OK on the larger threads as well?

Steve's (Borg B Borg) recommendation on the bottoming tap - Nice assessment. Since this tap is being used for the cap, the bottoming tap would be a nice addition to have - along with the taper tap. But as he said, I don't think I would only want to buy just the bottoming tap if I had to choose. I would still need the taper tap for starting and alignment.

How about you guys? Would the additional cost added for the bottoming tap be a deal breaker for you?

Mike - I don't know how the costs would work out - maybe it could be assessed separately, but if it's not that much of an impact, would everyone have to pay for the additional tap if they don't want it for some reason? Assuming there would be more that want it than don't want it (I.E. more than 12 sign up, but only 12 want the additional tap).

Thanks to everyone interested. So far, by my count, it is now over 12 (didn't want to say 13).

Thanks...John

 

[rsjimenez]

I would also be interested in a set.

 

[Timebandit]

I am no expert on taps or dies but am having great luck with jut the one tap and I dont see the need for the additional tap and price increase. I have already bought two sets of the new triple start tap and die so that i had a spare, since these group buys might not happen for a long time. I would like to get in on this one but cannot justify the extra money(unless its only a few dollars) for an extra tap that i wont use.

Just my thoughts
Justin

 

[mredburn]

The extra tap would only need quantity 12 to make the price break that is needed to make them affordable for the most part. They will make oneoffs at a couple hundred a tap. They have price breaks at smaller amounts but 12 is the best starting point. For example the total cost of 5 taps will cost you as much as 12 taps total.

 

[Texatdurango]

.....Since this tap is being used for the cap, the bottoming tap would be a nice addition to have - along with the taper tap. .....

How about you guys? Would the additional cost added for the bottoming tap be a deal breaker for you?

"the bottoming tap would be a nice addition to have "

I still don't see the need. I would like someone to give me one reason to buy this tap in regards to threading a pen cap other than looking nice in a plastic box on the shelf.

Personally it's not the extra expense, it's just that based on my past experience with these multi-start sets making my own pens, this is a tap that I would likely never use so my answer would be No interest.

 

[Timebandit]

.....Since this tap is being used for the cap, the bottoming tap would be a nice addition to have - along with the taper tap. .....

How about you guys? Would the additional cost added for the bottoming tap be a deal breaker for you?

"the bottoming tap would be a nice addition to have "

I still don't see the need. I would like someone to give me one reason to buy this tap in regards to threading a pen cap other than looking nice in a plastic box on the shelf.

Personally it's not the extra expense, it's just that based on my past experience with these multi-start sets making my own pens, this is a tap that I would likely never use so my answer would be No interest.

I agree. I have made about a dozen pens with the set i just bought and i cant figure out how the threads are going to get cut deeper. As Tex has said he cuts a shoulder to stop the rotation. I just use the shoulder of the body of the pen. When you screw the two together the lower body shoulder where the threads are cut hits on the cap section and stops the rotation of the cap. It cant go in any further, much less cut the threads deeper. All it will do is strip out your threads. I dint think the threads would even be strong enough to cut threads in the material.

Unless you plan on using this tap for other purposes(which is fine) but i just cant see needing it to make pen caps, i would like to not get the extra tap.

Justin

 

[mredburn]

I just got off the phone with tapco. they are updating the quote and I should have it this afternoon. They had an incorrect email address. I have requested an additional price quote on the extra tap. IF we order 1 taper and 1 bottom tap as a set they qualify for a combined discount on the price list. 12 pairs =the 24 count price level. IF we order 20 taper and 12 bottom taps they are priced at seperate levels. The 20 taper will be one price level and th12 bottom will be another.

 

[mredburn]

Price quote is in.

taps 12-24......$55.66
dies 12+.........$58.80.......1 inch size
dies 12+.........$60.20.......1 1/2 size

The 1 inch dies are not standard for this size and are not guaranteed against breaking. They recommend the 1 1/2. They however dont know what we will be using them on or how we will be using them.

That puts the price of the set at $114.46 plus shipping plus reshiping plus paypal. Add $11.00 roughly for that and you bring the total for the set to $125.50

The bottom tap would add $58.00 to those who wanted it if 12 are reached.
if only 3-5 want bottoming taps they will run an extra $100.00 each. 6-9 $70.00 each

MIke

 

[Timebandit]

OK good. As long as the bottoming tap is optional im in. I just dont see the need and the extra $58-100 would put me out of this deal.

 

[Curly]

Another option.

With respect to the bottoming tap.

If there are only a few that feel the need to get one they could order 2 of the taper taps and 1 die. When they receive their taps, 1 can be shortened (on the grinder) to remove the taper to make it into a bottoming tap. The only difference in the end would be a slightly shorter bottoming tap.

The order to tapco would have more taps than dies, which shouldn't be an issue, and might be a bit quicker to fulfil since they don't need to make the different taps.

 

[turbowagon]

What do you guys think about the 1" die versus 1 1/2" die? I'm really happy with my 1" die holder and don't feel like having to buy another one.

 

[Timebandit]

What do you guys think about the 1" die versus 1 1/2" die? I'm really happy with my 1" die holder and don't feel like having to buy another one.

Personally i think the 1" should be fine. We are taping acrylics and maybe occasionally metal. I think Tapco is basing there recommendation on the intended use of the taps and dies which is for metal taping.

Anyone else?

 

[Texatdurango]

What do you guys think about the 1" die versus 1 1/2" die? I'm really happy with my 1" die holder and don't feel like having to buy another one.

I'm fine with the 1" dia, die! I'll be cutting into plastics and hard rubber not metal!