How to Make Watch Pens

[alphageek]

So, I'm taking notes watching the TV show "How Its Made" and I now think I will go out and infringe on some of the TMs ... they did show us how its (many things) made. I think I will also infringe on Walmart's marketing idea and sell all of the products I can now make that once belonged to someone else. Wow! I've learned a lot in this thread (and the other one also)I saw another show outlining Walmart's marketing strategy. I will have time now that "The Adventures of Chuckleberry Flinn" is almost finished.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

Don, just to play devils advocate since I've seen you post several places about this recently... I'm just curious how you really feel about this (since I believe that you are against the watch pens). I've been taking a sideline to this overall... but your recent posts really raise my curiosity.

If truly you are saying that these shouldn't be made because Berry has a trademark, then I'm confused because that same document trademarks cigar label pens (which you have one on your website) - as well as you have a OSU pen and a pen with a picture of the Mona Lisa.

I'm not really stating which side of this "flamewar" I'm on. So I'm not really looking to join the battle. I firmly believe that we have to make each live with our own decisions (or live with the law if it comes to that) - but I also feel that there is a fine line of some things... For example, there is a possibility that Barry has a valid ownership of these. However, it is also possible that due to the wording or prior art from someone else, it is possible that what he has doesn't apply to whats being made here. Thats not my judgement (and nor is it the judgement of alot of the people on both sides of this).

So... This was longwinded, on the fence, and probably didn't lead anywhere. If anything was gotten from this post, I hope that it makes people think. Don, please don't take this as an attack on you - I'm also not judging any of your pens. Your series of recent posts seems to be pointing to people as stealing trademarks and I'm curious how you judge the line. If you wonder why I chose you specifically to ask this... its a combination of the fact that your one of the 'best known' names (to me at least) that I've seen in this topic and because of the recent posts you made, specifically the "adventures of post".

 

[srf1114]

the immortal words of Rodeny King comes to mind. "Can' t we all just get along?"

 

[its_virgil]

Don, just to play devils advocate since I've seen you post several places about this recently... I'm just curious how you really feel about this (since I believe that you are against the watch pens). I've been taking a sideline to this overall... but your recent posts really raise my curiosity.

I've posted in just two threads. How I really feel? I suppose you are asking my opinion. I think you know what it is. I am not against watch part pens....as long as Barry Gross is making and selling them. I am not a lawyer (and I was advised to not attend law school:biggrin: nor quit my day job) but as of now I consider the watch parts pen to be the property of Barry Gross. I may make one myself but I will first obtain Barry's permission and it will be just for me and my collection and not be made to sell. That's how I feel.

If truly you are saying that these shouldn't be made because Berry has a trademark, then I'm confused because that same document trademarks cigar label pens (which you have one on your website) - as well as you have a OSU pen and a pen with a picture of the Mona Lisa.

The OSU pen was made as a gift for my daughter who graduated from OSU and no money exchanged hands. The cigar label pen was made for a friend who smokes that cigar brand. It was made in 2004 (if I recall correctly and I think I do) which was before Barry was making them (I think) The Mona Lisa pen was made from a blank made for me and the pen is in my collection, and not sold nor was it ever given to the art teacher. The teacher resigned and left before I had the chance to present the pen as a gift.

I'm not really stating which side of this "flamewar" I'm on.

But you asked me to state which side I'm on? So, I'm asking you...which side are you on? I don't consider my participation to be a flame war. I have not flamed anyone nor have I intended to do so.

So I'm not really looking to join the battle.

I have no battle to pick and I have no horse in this race. Until I find out the (legal) opinions I will not be making and selling any of the pens that Barry makes. I ignore all of the "I think" and "my opinion is" posts from the several non-copyright-lawyers posters who are posting. What I think really does not matter but I think Barry has a legitimate claim and I will not infringe on that.

I firmly believe that we have to each live with our own decisions (or live with the law if it comes to that) - but I also feel that there is a fine line of some things... For example, there is a possibility that Barry has a valid ownership of these. However, it is also possible that due to the wording or prior art from someone else, it is possible that what he has doesn't apply to whats being made here. Thats not my judgement (and nor is it the judgement of alot of the people on both sides of this).

As do I. and my decision is that I will not be making any of these pens without the permission of Barry. I have no authority over others but I do like to sleep at night.

So... This was longwinded, on the fence, and probably didn't lead anywhere. If anything was gotten from this post, I hope that it makes people think. Don, please don't take this as an attack on you - I'm also not judging any of your pens. Your series of recent posts seems to be pointing to people as stealing trademarks and I'm curious how you judge the line. If you wonder why I chose you specifically to ask this... its a combination of the fact that your one of the 'best known' names (to me at least) that I've seen in this topic and because of the recent posts you made, specifically the "adventures of post".

Fence riders only get sore crotches. I hope you climb of the fence and onto the right side and only you can determine which side that is for you. It sounds like you understood the "Adventures of Chuckleberry Flinn" post. I think my point was made...with you at least.

(you asked)...and I'm curious how you judge the line. Do you mean how I judge the line or how one judges the line? I interpret the facts as I have them and then make my judgment. If the decision is not totally clear I err on the side of caution and the fact that I like to sleep at night. Thanks for asking. you are the first to ask for my opinions and I appreciate that. One of the best known names.....wow! Thanks for that.
Do a good turn daily or as Dr. laura would say...Now, go do the right thing.
Don

 

[alphageek]

the immortal words of Rodeny King comes to mind. "Can' t we all just get along?"

Obviously not!

Seriously, for some of us this is about trying to do the right thing but to also be able to try variations on other ideas that have been shared. But it does make our head hurt as to where the line of 'ok' stands.

 

[Snorton20]

So a little question to add to this wonderful thread. If you take labels off of a bottle and then cast them in resin, can the beer companies come after u for selling there labels?

 

[alphageek]

...trimmed...

But you asked me to state which side I'm on? So, I'm asking you...which side are you on? I don't consider my participation to be a flame war. I have not flamed anyone nor have I intended to do so.

.... Trimmed...

(you asked)...and I'm curious how you judge the line. Do you mean how I judge the line or how one judges the line? I interpret the facts as I have them and then make my judgment. If the decision is not totally clear I err on the side of caution and the fact that I like to sleep at night. Thanks for asking. you are the first to ask for my opinions and I appreciate that. One of the best known names.....wow! Thanks for that.
Do a good turn daily or as Dr. laura would say...Now, go do the right thing.
Don

Thanks for the reply... I'll try to be short in mine. Realize that I don't mean to put words into your mouth, just how I interpret what you wrote.

- I didnt mean to imply you were flaming, just that this is a hot topic with both sides having strong opinions of their point.
- I will say that your post makes it very clear to me that there will be many peoples versions of the "truth" as each sees it. I read into your reply that you feel Barry has a valid ownership of the watch pen but you feel you predate him with the cigar you made. I know others feel there is prior art to both.
- You also seem to be ok with some copyright concerns (osu is my example here) depending on the usage. Would you go to Barry to create a watch pen for your own collection or family member? (rhertotical -- just a thought more than a question)

You asked about my side. I say I'm on the fence. Not because I dont want to pick a side. I'm on the fence because I dont know that I have enough information to get off the fence without falling face first into horse poo. What I read of the copyright links is that you can't compyright ideas. If I were to make a pen with parts places just exactly like Barry I know I'm in the wrong. If I use the idea of placing parts my own way, I don't think it's wrong. But like you I am not a lawer.... I'm an engineer and work with computers - I'm much better when the rules may be hard to understand rather than hard to interpret. ( that is a difficult distinction for some people). Code and laws can be both hard to read, but code isn't open to interpretation.

 

[Billman]

as Dr. laura would say...Now, go do the right thing.

I think she is better known for saying something else these days.

 

[maxwell_smart007]

Perhaps because this conversation is largely taking place between two people, it might be better suited to private messaging?

Just worried it might get out of hand...they usually do!

 

[alphageek]

So a little question to add to this wonderful thread. If you take labels off of a bottle and then cast them in resin, can the beer companies come after u for selling there labels?

IMO ( again not a lawer) I think they can (trademark and all)... Actually looking at barrys watch pens I'm surprised by the number of trademarked names on it... Again part of why my head hurts on these topics.

 

[its_virgil]

I do feel that Barry has a claim to the watch parts pen. I do not know the legalities and I will not pursue them. There are so many other pens to make and for me I just feel that is would be wrong to make and sell a watch parts pen. I cannot speak for others. Others seem to have their own opinion and they obviously disagree with mine. But, I must do what I discern as the correct thing for me to do.

I have no claim to the cigar label pen. I just noted for your info that I made the cigar label pen several years ago and I don't think Barry had made them yet. I don't know for sure if he had or not. Neither the cigar label nor the OSU pen were sold. So, I suppose I feel that it was OK to make them since no money was involved and no damages were inflicted to either the univ or the tobacco company. I could be totally wrong and off base. If so, so then I must live with those two decisions.

Would I ask Barry for permission to make a watch parts pen for myself of a family member? Yes, I would seek permission from Barry before I would make one for my personal collection or as a gift to a family member. Barry could say no and if so I would honor that. That is how I feel and it fits into my moral grid.

Thanks for asking and for listening. I appreciate your attitude in this matter.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

I read into your reply that you feel Barry has a valid ownership of the watch pen but you feel you predate him with the cigar you made. I know others feel there is prior art to both.
- You also seem to be ok with some copyright concerns (osu is my example here) depending on the usage. Would you go to Barry to create a watch pen for your own collection or family member? (rhertotical -- just a thought more than a question)

 

[its_virgil]

I think the conversation is in line with this thread. Alphageek and I will not let our conversation get out of hand. We can't control what others may allow themselves to do. thanks,
Don

Perhaps because this conversation is largely taking place between two people, it might be better suited to private messaging?

Just worried it might get out of hand...they usually do!

 

[its_virgil]

I have no idea what she is saying these days. I've not listened to her in a couple of years.

Don

as Dr. laura would say...Now, go do the right thing.

I think she is better known for saying something else these days.

 

[Billman]

I have no idea what she is saying these days. I've not listened to her in a couple of years.

Don

as Dr. laura would say...Now, go do the right thing.

I think she is better known for saying something else these days.

LOL... No worries Don, I was just makin' a joke.

 

[Grizz]

I had no idea who Barry Gross is/was. (I'm so in the loop of things). So I checked out is website and noticed that he has these watches for sale and is using Micky Mouse.

Pardon the interruption, but isn't that a trademark infringement?

 

[MesquiteMan]

Would I ask Barry for permission to make a watch parts pen for myself of a family member? Yes, I would seek permission from Barry before I would make one for my personal collection or as a gift to a family member.

That exact scenario is what started this whole thing here on IAP. A person asked Barry for his permission to make a couple for himself and his family member. This person even asked Barry for help and advice. Said help and advice was given, as long as it was for his personal use. Next thing we know, said person is posting their new line of pens and offering to do a tutorial on said pens. Then said person goes on to say they sold one of the pens for a LOT of money.

Now, Barry is being made out to be the villain for defending his idea against the person who gave his word. Really sad the way a lot of folks have jumped him.

 

[its_virgil]

Read about derivative works. I think the Mickey Mouse watch pen falls into that category...as does the beer caps pen and the cigar label pens...but I'm no expert and am not giving advice...just thinking out loud.
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.pdf
Do a good turn daily!
Don

I had no idea who Barry Gross is/was. (I'm so in the loop of things). So I checked out is website and noticed that he has these watches for sale and is using Micky Mouse.

Pardon the interruption, but isn't that a trademark infringement?

 

[Grizz]

ah... that's right falls under the Derivative clause. I remember over in the scrollsaw world Jeff Zafino was sued by some artist for using his drawings. Jeff lost the case and owed around $100,000 in damages.

Read about derivative works. I think the Mickey Mouse watch pen falls into that category...as does the beer caps pen and the cigar label pens...but I'm no expert and am not giving advice...just thinking out loud.
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.pdf
Do a good turn daily!
Don

I had no idea who Barry Gross is/was. (I'm so in the loop of things). So I checked out is website and noticed that he has these watches for sale and is using Micky Mouse.

Pardon the interruption, but isn't that a trademark infringement?

 

[Lenny]

I honestly don't know where I fall in on this, but I thought I would share this for consideration...

I remember reading about someone who asked whether or not it was ok to make a project that had been published in a woodworking book or magazine, with the intent to "market' the item. As I recall, the publisher replied that you can make the item for your own personal use but to sell the item you would need permission.

Like I said I'm not really clear how I feel about this, but what keeps coming up in my mind as I read these threads is .... If things in this world were FAIR, Bruce would be getting royalties for every Computer Circuit board pen that is sold!

 

[Skye]

And it's also one of the time when quality comes into play. More or less the same thing happened with both the cactus blanks and the computer blanks. Right after Curtis wrote the how-to someone else jumped in and started producing and promoting the sale of the blanks here even though it was Curtis' baby. Unfortunately it's just the way the hobby goes but the good thing is the blanks were far inferior to Curtis' and every cactus blank pen I've seen that's been truly amazing was always with one of his blanks.

When an idea is mentioned here you may as just plan on it being copied. It's the nature of the trade. If you have a secret you want to stay hidden, don't mention it. If you produce a new type of stock, be the best at it so when it comes time for the board to jump on the idea and go looking for a source, you're quality puts you at the top of the list.

 

[rjwolfe3]

I am really surprised that the watch part pen is the only one out of the four that Barry Gross owns that people are upset about. I have seen quite a few cast cigar labels and cast fly fishing lure pens and cast blanks out there and some of them are for sale. Yet the watch part pen is the one that is getting the most attention. If the same principles apply to each and every situation then where is the uproar over those ideas that Mr. Gross holds a copyright over?

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

I've always respected Don and now I have a new respect for Dean. Thank both of you for showing how to post your opinions without flaming ....Don thanks for all your help when I started casting snake and Curtis for yours with cactus.

 

[Grizz]

I am really surprised that the watch part pen is the only one out of the four that Barry Gross owns that people are upset about. I have seen quite a few cast cigar labels and cast fly fishing lure pens and cast blanks out there and some of them are for sale. Yet the watch part pen is the one that is getting the most attention. If the same principles apply to each and every situation then where is the uproar over those ideas that Mr. Gross holds a copyright over?

Probably because that is the one that Barry got upset about?

 

[jtdesigns]

Well that makes my mind up. I am setting the watch pens aside out of respect for this forum and members.

Curtis, there are two sides to every story regarding my interaction between Barry and I. Somewhere in the middle lies the truth and I know what I perceived to hear in that "said" conversation with Barry. I am quite surprised since he sells and has laid claim to the cactus pens that I believe you originated. Now, maybe he got your permission but I am not privy to that info but is interesting none the less.

Jeff

 

[Willee]

Like I said I'm not really clear how I feel about this, but what keeps coming up in my mind as I read these threads is .... If things in this world were FAIR, Bruce would be getting royalties for every Computer Circuit board pen that is sold!

Why do you keep saying this knowing that Bruce himself admits he was not the first to do that? That he got the idea from someone else?

Does your opinion apply to everyone else that really was the first one to do something different making a pen?

 

[Willee]

I sure hope all you fellas have the copyright or permission for all the artwork you are copying and using as your personal avatar.

Some are outright violations.

 

[Skye]

I sure hope all you fellas have the copyright or permission for all the artwork you are copying and using as your personal avatar.

Some are outright violations.

(I see a Shiner Bock bottle in yours. You paying royalties? :wink: )

 

[MesquiteMan]

I am really surprised that the watch part pen is the only one out of the four that Barry Gross owns that people are upset about. I have seen quite a few cast cigar labels and cast fly fishing lure pens and cast blanks out there and some of them are for sale. Yet the watch part pen is the one that is getting the most attention. If the same principles apply to each and every situation then where is the uproar over those ideas that Mr. Gross holds a copyright over?

Probably because that is the one that Barry got upset about?

Please read post #95 above and please, let's not keep vilifying Barry.

 

[MesquiteMan]

I am quite surprised since he sells and has laid claim to the cactus pens that I believe you originated. Now, maybe he got your permission but I am not privy to that info but is interesting none the less.

Jeff

I don't make or sell Cholla pens or blanks. I did show the first Cholla pen here on IAP 4-5 years ago though, before Barry did one. That is not the point of this discussion, though.

 

[Lenny]

Like I said I'm not really clear how I feel about this, but what keeps coming up in my mind as I read these threads is .... If things in this world were FAIR, Bruce would be getting royalties for every Computer Circuit board pen that is sold!

Why do you keep saying this knowing that Bruce himself admits he was not the first to do that? That he got the idea from someone else?

Well, first of all, I think this is the first time I ever said this..:biggrin:
however, I stand corrected, I did not know that.

Does your opinion apply to everyone else that really was the first one to do something different making a pen?

Honestly, I would HOPE that most would be willing to share their ideas freely (as most do here), immitation being the sincerest form of flattery.

 

[Gary Max]

Remember---- At this time I am not offering to sell any type of Cast blanks here at IAP---but I do have permission from Curtis to sell cactus Blanks. It was his ideal and I asked him before I sold any. I do have the email saved on file off site.
Steampunk Art has been around for more years than most of us have been alive.
There is a big difference.

 

[its_virgil]

I know, as was I?:biggrin:
Don

I have no idea what she is saying these days. I've not listened to her in a couple of years.

Don

as Dr. laura would say...Now, go do the right thing.

I think she is better known for saying something else these days.

LOL... No worries Don, I was just makin' a joke.

 

[jttheclockman]

Now I know Barry comes to this site and does see what has been going on. The entire thing started with what Curtis meantioned about JTDesigns talking with Barry and getting help and all about making so called watch pens. Then he decides to mention he is selling these and was going to make a tutorial. Now that is what has ticked Barry off from what I am understanding.

I think because this is a well known site in the pen industry it has drawn the attention of pen makers around the world. This thing about selling these look alike pens because that is what they all are, are being sold around the world by others. Just look at etsy and ebay. Why Does Barry not go after them??? Who knows how many people are making them and maybe have been making them for many years before Barry but just because they are not a member here showing off their work does not mean they do not exist?? We are a small drop in the bucket here for the amount of people turning pens. Look at some of the pen sympossiums and other turning sympossiums and your head would spin.


What I would like to see being Barry is a member here and has appeared here before, to come here and to set the record straight as to his stance. State what he thinks his copyright projects mean to him from what he understands to be true. I am sure he looked into this before he filed. Explain to us all what he thinks we can and can not do?? It would make for an interesting read. Hopefully this will stand out enough so he will read it and give it some serious thought. There is alot of grey area in interpretting these things.

Now I have read posts such as Don Wards and finally he came out and stated what his thoughts were instead of beating around the bush and things like Curtis who are big names here and are influential in their voices, and I understand their thoughts. I understand the concept of coming up with an idea and calling it your own and then putting some cocamamie copyright on it. What do you think "EAGLE" would have said about this???? How many copyrights do you think he should have taken out??? My opinion is and it means absolutely nothing but we all grew into this hobby by learning from others. We did so by our predecessors sharing their ideas and techniques. The idea of casting items in resin is nothing new, it has been around for a long time. Coming up with another item to cast in resin is just that, another item cast in resin. The concept is still the same. So to be able to copyright that item is just plain wrong in my opinion. He may have a better shot at copyrighting the phrase ECO-FRIENDLY PENS.

Someone mentioned quality is what sells pens and this is true. Just because someone makes a watch pen does not make it the same quality as Barry's. I just do not get this whole concept of copyrighting an idea such as casting an item in resin. Maybe SkipRat better start contacting the copyright office because his ideas are truely one of a kind. Barry needs to think back when he started doing this hobby and who he borrowed his ideas from. Give me a break. OK I am off the soap box and thanks for reading my novel.

 

[BRobbins629]

What I would like to see being Barry is a member here and has appeared here before, to come here and to set the record straight as to his stance. State what he thinks his copyright projects mean to him from what he understands to be true. I am sure he looked into this before he filed. Explain to us all what he thinks we can and can not do?? It would make for an interesting read. Hopefully this will stand out enough so he will read it and give it some serious thought. There is alot of grey area in interpretting these things.

Why not send him a pm and ask him to post his position if he chooses?

 

[Snorton20]

So do we have to come on here and find out what we are allowed to cast before we do so? I would like to cast pencil shavings has that been done already? Will I get sued? How can anyone get in trouble for casting something in resin? Anything and just about everything has been attempted to be cast with some good results and some without. So should I be afraid and not cast anything? When does the line get drawn?

 

[rjwolfe3]

Lol that's what I was trying to find out in the thread that I put out.

So do we have to come on here and find out what we are allowed to cast before we do so? I would like to cast pencil shavings has that been done already? Will I get sued? How can anyone get in trouble for casting something in resin? Anything and just about everything has been attempted to be cast with some good results and some without. So should I be afraid and not cast anything? When does the line get drawn?

 

[Skye]

.........What I would like to see being Barry is a member here and has appeared here before, to come here and to set the record straight as to his stance......................................

Because to me it wouldn't matter. I know my interpretation of what a copyright entails and if he were to say otherwise or say that he's highly offended people are copying his idea.... I wouldn't really care to be blunt. If he posted his approval or disapproval is of no relevance to me. In that case, why bother kicking up more dirt?

 

[RAdams]

I have stayed away from posting to any of these debates because I have been caught up in my own storm with a very similar situation.

I heavily agree with alot of JT's post above. I think copyrighting your work in this particular field is all but insane. Especially if it is something that can/has been done by others. I do not mean any disrespect to Barry, or anyone else. This post is just my opinion, and we all know about opinions... As i was recently told by an attorney, and i think has been posted here before, "A copyright or trademark is only as good as your ability to protect it."

If the copyrighted or trademarked materials are already questionable by just the general penmaking community, Just imagine what a decent attorney could do to defend such a case, and with numerous sources for amazingly similar products that pre-date the trademarks, or copyrights, it seems like an open and shut situation.

I do not know Mr. Gross' stance on his copyrights... Maybe he just wants to protect the name that he uses. Maybe he thought he was protecting himself, and got dooped by an attorney, or more likely it is something completely different... I don't know.

I do know this..... As a blank caster, I am always on the lookout for the next big thing. My hope is to purely find it, start it, and release it to the public for open use, as a small payback to everyone that helped me out, and continues to do so. I also believe that copyrights like these stifle (sp) the penmaking community.

If only Curtis made cactus blanks, then penmakers would be limited to only what Curtis decides to make. No doubt his blanks are top shelf, but I know of several people that are doing some REALLY neat stuff with skeletons. They just don't post them here out of fear of incredible backlash. So the penmaking community never sees these innovative ideas because the creator is afraid to share. It isn't a lack of want... Trust me, they would love nothing more than to show their work, and let everyone here continue the innovation.

I think this applies to all the ideas that are shared in our community. In reality some people depend heavily on their turning, or blank making skills to keep the lights on. These people will be much faster to defend their ideas. Some are just in it for the fun of seeing amazing pens, and the feeling of being seen as a mentor (Speaking of Skiprat...)

Plain and simple, this mix of "hobbyists" and "production workers" causes a difference in opinion on protecting these works. The hobbyists feel that all these designs and ideas should be public domain, and the production crew want to protect their revenue source. I understand both points of view, and could easily set my opinion to the side and debate either side of the argument.

Thanks for reading my post.

Ron

 

[dogcatcher]

As i was recently told by an attorney, and i think has been posted here before, "A copyright or trademark is only as good as your ability to protect it."

Ron

One thing to think about is that if you are sued you will have to get an attorney, that costs money, and that can be lots of money. The second thing to think about is that a jury can rule either way, that can also cost a lot more money.

The best rule in these circumstances if you think you may be crossing the line, it is best to step back and go somewhere else.

 

[Willee]

I sure hope all you fellas have the copyright or permission for all the artwork you are copying and using as your personal avatar.

Some are outright violations.

(I see a Shiner Bock bottle in yours. You paying royalties? :wink: )

You bet ... every time I buy and drink one I pay the royalties.
Actually they should be paying me for promoting their product ... or at least some free product once in a while.

Nothing goes better with pool cue or pen making than Shiner Bock Beer ... IMHO.

 

[Willee]

Like I said I'm not really clear how I feel about this, but what keeps coming up in my mind as I read these threads is .... If things in this world were FAIR, Bruce would be getting royalties for every Computer Circuit board pen that is sold!

Why do you keep saying this knowing that Bruce himself admits he was not the first to do that? That he got the idea from someone else?

Well, first of all, I think this is the first time I ever said this..:biggrin:
however, I stand corrected, I did not know that.

I thought I read a post from you before stating the same thing.
Could be mistaken ... probably am ... at my age it happens a lot.