Is it ethical to write a tutorial?

[Wood Butcher]

I have been working on getting the realistic cigar pens to be what I want them to be and the last one I made I photoed the process some and wrote the steps taken to get to the final product. Pen making for me is a fun hobby and has been for over 20 years but I understand that some of you folks make a living of the craft or have a business based on it. I am asking if a tutorial on the process that I use would infringe on another pen master's ground. If so I won't do it. If not I will begin writing it up. If ANYONE has a problem with this I will not do the tutorial. Thanks
WB

 

[tseger]

This site is about learning to make pens, or learning to make pens better, I say fire away, brother.

 

[avbill]

If you want to write a tutorial about how you make a Cigar pen then do it.

On what grounds does someone have to say you can't write a tutorial up?

 

[Snowbeast]

My $.02.

Is the way you do these pens the ONLY way to do them and that is what 'everybody else' does?

Do you have THE secret for doing realistic ash?

I would bet that the answer to these is no. You have a way of doing them that works for you. I, for one, would be interested in how you do these. I have contemplated trying a few and have a fair idea about how to go about it but learning from someone who has been through some of the trials and tribulations would be very helpful.

If you learned specific techniques directly from someone who makes a living from this type pen, I would think you should get approval before publishing their means and methods. Otherwise, write and share what you have developed as you see fit.

Maybe the other person will learn something from you and our craft will advance even more.

 

[alphageek]

Unless you have gotten an "inside scoop" from a master, there is no issue. I look forward to seeing it. You are talking about documenting YOUR process to help US learn. Sharing both ideas AND instruction is what helps make this site great.

 

[BRobbins629]

Even if you were the master, you should still teach. It will only make you better. Don't most of the top pros write books and teach? It's true in any field. Those that will try to copy you will not be as good. Those who learn the process will venture in different directions. In fact, I will be doing a demo on just this style in our next pen turners meeting in Richmond. They are nice conversation pieces, but not rocket science either. Would love to see how your technique differs.

 

[reiddog1]

I say pay it back to the people that helped you along in the beginning, and pay it forward for those who are just starting out. I would love to see your take on it. My $0.02.

 

[Kretzky]

I think you have every right to publish your method, & no-one has any right to say you can't. If you were shown how to do this by a "specialist" on condition that you never divulge the his method then that might be a different story.
If, as I suspect, you picked up a few ideas, hints & tips & then made your own discoveries based on trial & error then it's totally your call whether you make your methods known. This site is all about helping each other, some of us are able to offer more help & advice than others & those who do help are, I believe, very much appreciated by the majority of members
If anyone's is 'put out' because you publish your method... hard luck!

 

[firewhatfire]

I know how to do it already but would love to see your technique also. Never know when your gonna learn something cool.

 

[jttheclockman]

I have said this over and over here and in fact this topic did come up in one of the pen contests. The difference about what you are proposing is that no one asked you for a tutorial. You are offering it. Unless some method is copyrighted or patened then you are free to do as you please. You are giving back to the pen turning community some knowledge you believe will further this particular aspect of pen turning. You are willing to share your findings. If you need to acknowledge someone along the way then you should do so also.

Sharing ones knowledge is something that has to be freely given and should be. Not all people feel this way because they think they are owed something for what time they put into a specific process or method and if they make a living doing whatever it is then by all means keep their secrets but do not deny someone else from sharing what looks like what they do if that person wants too share.

Feel free to share.

 

[plantman]

:bananen_smilies035: Back to P.T. Barnum: " You are going to please some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but your never going to please all of the people all of the time " Your the one you have to please !!! Go for it !!! I would like to see how you do it. I have found in woodworking that if you gave ten people a drawing of an object to make, you will end up with 10 copys of the drawing, but, no two people will use the exact same method to complete the project. Now if they get together and discuss how they made it, next time they will make a better project faster. Everone has a different slant on how to do a task, and I believe this should be shared. There is no greater gift given to us that to be a teacher. You will find in the comments you get who are the big and the small people. Jim S

 

[WoodCarverOH]

I would say "Go for it" I and others would benefit from this learning experience.

 

[LL Woodworks]

Go for it - by all means!

 

[Spiderman]

Please, Please PLEASE share this with us! As a beginner, I would love to learn more about this craft. Most of the time I hang out in the Library reading and watching the Masters. I must say, although it is a very cool place already, there is always room for more books.

From reading through the forums, I know that most beginners turn to the Library before ever turning to the lathe. I am not saying that my skill level would be anywhere near the level required to try making a cigar pen following your tutorial, but reading and following the process gives the novice tips and clues on things that the Masters take for granted.

Teach us Obi-Wan. The Force is strong within you.

Mike

 

[beck3906]

Wood Butcher,
I for one appreciate your question. I've been around a number of years and have read the discussions, and yes, the arguments, over stolen ideas that were made public. We've also read the discussions of ideas that resulted in commercial ventures.

The person who developed this into an art makes a significant amount of their sales from this concept. I for one would like to see you protect that concept to protect their sales.

Anyone who wants to know how to make these can practice and learn on their own.

 

[onewaywood]

Well I look forward to seeing it. Soon I hope.

 

[BarbS]

I've never attempted that, but I'm interested in seeing someone's experimentation with it. Please do!

 

[Haynie]

I could see your point Rick, if he was suggesting writing about the method that someone else uses. Since he is writing about his method it is his prerogative to share that information or not. Why should he worry about someone's profits? As a business owner I can guarantee you that no one is caring about protecting my profits except me. Other, similar businesses in town sure aren't.

What the OP wants to do is ethical. The purpose of this forum is learning. Knowledge is shared in many different ways.

 

[ironman123]

is it ethical to write a tutorial

quote "The person who developed this into an art makes a significant amount of their sales from this concept. I for one would like to see you protect that concept to protect their sales.

Anyone who wants to know how to make these can practice and learn on their own." - from Rick.

WoodButcher, did you receive any tips or instruction from the "developer" of this art? Is it protected by patent, trademark or any other legal form?

If the answers are NO and NO, then I say the choice is yours and yours alone.

If the "developer" was that concerned I am sure he would have had it protected long ago.

My .02 cents.

Ray

 

[booney0717]

As a fairly new pen turner i thought i would put in my 2 cents. I read alot of the tutorials. I've learned a ton from them. I dont always use 100% of what i read on them but they give me direction. I say go with it. Who knows mabey someone who already makes the cigar pens might get a few new ideas from you. The more we read the better we'll all be.

 

[razor524]

I do a lot of photography and I learn from the best in the field, Joe McNally, Scott Kelby, Jay Maisel from tutorials that they do online and in person. They make a lot of money with their art and do not feel a need to keep it to themselves because they are confident in their ability and know that 99% of the people that they teach will never be a threat to them (especially me). The 1% that do will drive you to be better. No one should have the right to stop a person from teaching what they have learned. I make money with my profession, but schools keep churning out more people with my degree to compete against me, can I stop these professors from passing on their knowledge?

 

[Jim Burr]

I did a tutorial on another forum on salt boxes. William Sonoma sells them...not writting it never crossed my mind.

 

[Wayne]

Bill,

You've heard the masses, I agree, share your knowledge.

I'll be looking forward to hearing from you.

Wayne

 

[walshjp17]

Many who make a living by selling their pens and other creations have already written tutorials that may be found in the IAP library. IMHO, these folks believe that sharing their knowledge makes the penturning community stronger.

Most of here do not make a living selling our creations. In fact, very few make a living solely by selling the pens they have crafted. Those who do make money, in most cases, are merely supplimenting their income by picking up a few bucks on the side or trying to pay for the supplies and equipment they use in their hobby.

Writing a tutorial will help the majority of those of us here who are in awe of those who make these pens and would certainly not infringe upon or detract from the income of the few that make a living at it. Considering the wide geographical base of IAP members, I seriously doubt that learning to make a cigar pen from another member will cause sales of other members to decrease. We each have our own markets, if you will.

 

[healeydays]

I believe that as a craftsman, I should pass on any skills, knowledge and techniques that I believe will help improve the craft of other craftsmen/craftswomen around me.

Craftsmanship is passed from generation to generation and person to person or it could be lost forever or need to be rediscovered and many things are unfortunately never rediscovered.

 

[Wood Butcher]

Sorry, I guess I wasn't as complete as I should have been. I have made a few of the "realistic cigar" pens and have received good comments from those who have seen them. I have received no training or instruction from anyone on how this is done. Having made thousands of pens and having been a woodworker and artist in several mediums since 1948 or there abouts, I'm now 72, I have an eye for design, form and function so figuring out what steps to take has required making several "junk" pens to eliminate the incorrect processes and steps it takes to achieve the desired results. As I state when teaching pen making and doing demos for Rockler, my way is only one way. If you have a better or more comfortable way to do what I do, don't change because my methods differ. My reason for posting about a tutorial is purely based on my concern that the idea is not original to me and I would not want to create a dissension or anger by divulging what I have figured out. I watch the videos and learn from them, I find a simpler or easier way for me to do what I have seen and, if possible, pass that on. I haven't had this much fun making a pen since the infamous golf ball pen I came up with. The golf ball idea was all mine, the cigar isn't. I didn't mean to stir up an emotional tsunami, just don't want to p%#s of folks on my favorite site. Thanks for the comments. I'll work on the write up and make the decision based on what feels right and just.
Wood Butcher

 

[Rob73]

I don't think there is anything ethical involved. You want to take the time to make a tutorial you have every right too.

 

[ironman123]

I am hoping you decide to do the tutorial, for the benefit of future pen makers.

I, for one and am sure most of the members will honor your decision.

Ray

 

[Kretzky]

Are we to assume, that the few who are advocating that your thoughts & ideas should not be shared & say you should not publish your methods have never made use of any of the tutorials or ideas published by other generous contributing members on this site
I too hope very much that you will ignore any nay sayers & publish your ideas for the good of the majority & the advancement of pen making in general.

 

[beck3906]

I see that I am the lone person taking a differing opinion. Personally, I don't care which way the decision goes. All I'm saying is that I can understand the moral feelings Wood Butcher is going through.

Many of the folks responding to this thread don't have the memory of past discussions where someone's thoughts or design was taken by another and then turned into their own product for sale or even into a commercial product. I wasn't that long ago that we had a strong discussion coming to the defense of a member who had the name of the product used by a commercial firm.

And to those who wonder if I've used any of the tutorials....

I haven't used anything dealing with pens themselves. I've used some of Curtis's tutorials in shop work. Part of the fun in pen making is coming up with your own ideas. Tutorials mean we're too lazy to think of our own means of doing it.

 

[switch62]

In this case ethics does not enter into it. This is your method of making a cigar pen, you developed it and are free to do with it what you will.

Others who make cigar pens have their own methods and they can choose to do what they want. If they have a unique idea or method and want to keep it to themselves, fine. If they want to stop others copying it, they should patent it.

Without sharing knowledge we would still be in the stone age. Even patents expire for this reason.

Don't worry about those who make a living selling pens, their sales won't be affected by your tutorial. After all, if I, like most here, wanted a cigar pen I'd make it not buy it. If some one wants to sell cigar pens, they still need the skills to make and market them.

This forum is about learning, sharing knowledge and, community. So please share if you want to.

TonyO

 

[randywa]

I think it's always ethical to share your ideas. It is unethical for anyone to use your methods for their gain without giving due credit. When I have an issue, I'll hit the library to find out why my way isn't working, not to copy someone the way someone else does it.

Just my opinion.

 

[beck3906]

And for the comments that those selling these style pens won't be affected.....

I wouldn't doubt that they originators wouldn't be affected. The problem is that tutorials make I easy for someone to copy ideas and then sell them heir selves. Suddenly, the market is flooded with copycats. And often at lessor prices.

Many pen makers will have designs never shared on IAP for this very concern. You can think this as being wrong. This is being realistic in having a unique product customers will come back to you for.

 

[jttheclockman]

I see that I am the lone person taking a differing opinion. Personally, I don't care which way the decision goes. All I'm saying is that I can understand the moral feelings Wood Butcher is going through.

Many of the folks responding to this thread don't have the memory of past discussions where someone's thoughts or design was taken by another and then turned into their own product for sale or even into a commercial product. I wasn't that long ago that we had a strong discussion coming to the defense of a member who had the name of the product used by a commercial firm.

And to those who wonder if I've used any of the tutorials....

I haven't used anything dealing with pens themselves. I've used some of Curtis's tutorials in shop work. Part of the fun in pen making is coming up with your own ideas. Tutorials mean we're too lazy to think of our own means of doing it.[/quote]


I agree there has been rather heated discussions on past pens such as Bruce's circuit board pen (remember he made a deal with the company too) and also the so called watch pen, Curtis' catus blanks has come under fire as well as many of the blanks sold today that are copied and peddled. and there have been others. But if we were to adhere to that way of thinking lets just shut this site down right now because each and every person here has copied someone elses work and that includes you sir. There would be no reason other than share stories of our pathetic lives with each other. This site was formed with the premise to further the art of pen making and to share with other artisans something passionate that we all do and that is create pens.

It is interesting that the person that has profited the most from this type pen has not made a statement here. I for one would like to hear their take on this.

But beside that, to say that tutorials make us lazy people is a slap at all of us and I do not particularly think that is very nice. How in the world do we as humans learn anything. We have teachers from the very earliest parts of our lives which start with our parents. We continue every day to learn from others weather it be job related, hobby related, sports related or so on. Tutorials weather done on utube or here and put in word form is just another means of gathering knowledge. Looking at a tutorial does not mean you are going to do something exactly the same because each tutorial is one person's view or method of doing something. I say this over and over again, if you are afraid of being copied and you want to corner the market on your idea then never show it. But also if you want to corner a market come up with something that can't be copied using ordinary materials and tools and make it something that will take expense to do and see how many copy you.

How many of the big name pen companies do you think are being copied?? Every one of them. Just take a look at the pens on the market that are sold by the big names. Heck I try to make my version of some of their designs. Unless you have patents and deep pockets to protect your ideas morals and ethics will not get it done.

Tutorials do have their place on this forum. It is up to the individual who is writing it to decide if they want to share their ideas. It is then up to us to decide what to do with these bits of information. I hope we all take bits and pieces from many and come up with our own designs so they can be copied and continue evolution of the pen.

As been said before if you do not want to know how a person does a particular type pen then don't read the tutorial. Just like everybody keeps saying about different forums her, if you don't like what you are reading, don't read them. Simple.

So to sum up my feelings again I believe tutorials are a part of this site and will continue to support any who write them and thank them for doing so. I will read them if it interests me.

Good luck with your decision.

 

[alphageek]

I have some thoughts in addition to my original post. I do understand those that feel its possible for ideas to be "taken". However... I think the article would be a good thing... Here is some of my thoughts ( no real order... Just commenting on things said)
-commercial ones have been out there.
-- Cheap - Cigar Pen ( just quick find.. I'm sure there's more)
-- Not cheap - montegrappa has one from the mid 90s (I'm betting they profited more than anyone here on the idea)
- IMO tutorials do not make us lazy. If they did, does every magazine, book, blog and post also do so? I would personally not be nearly the woodworker I am without tutorials of various forms.
- no-one here is immortal. Woodworking seems to be less prolific with each generation. It's great when things are shared so that the experience can grow rather than fade away.

Again... I hope you choose to share. And thank you in advance if you do.

 

[beck3906]

As for the person most affected by this....
I dare say he will comment. He's stated his position in the last discussion when he was asked to share his secrets. I don't blame him for not wanting to engage in this thread.

And for the techniques that are too advanced even for the above average pen maker...
There's a few names that come to mind. The Boone pens with the laser etchings require equipment and skills most won't acquire. We have a newer member with a chemist background that has skills most of us won't follow.

And then there are the names we've lost because they didn't want to be hounded for requests for tutorials and such. Great pen makers that shared the results but not the how.

 

[wiset1]

So why not just send him a PM and ask the question directly instead of making it into a big deal on an open forum? Just wondering why you took this route instead of going directly to the source. I own one of his pens that I worked as a trade for one of my scalloped pens and truth be told it's the prize of my collection. Everyone says sure why not, where's the harm? But there are those who will quickly forget to give credit and take the designs as their own in other forums, or even make a business of it which in the end hurts the other turner. I say, if you're having to ask yourself if you should do it....well, you already know it's wrong. Just my opinion.

 

[alphageek]

So why not just send him a PM and ask the question directly instead of making it into a big deal on an open forum? Just wondering why you took this route instead of going directly to the source. I own one of his pens that I worked as a trade for one of my scalloped pens and truth be told it's the prize of my collection. Everyone says sure why not, where's the harm? But there are those who will quickly forget to give credit and take the designs as their own in other forums, or even make a business of it which in the end hurts the other turner. I say, if you're having to ask yourself if you should do it....well, you already know it's wrong. Just my opinion.

Or an alternative view. No offense to any maker, but who is to say that any one person owns an idea. You can't patent an idea, therefore why do give ownership to it? And if we did - Who should credit go to? Montegrappa? Their cigar look alike run close to a grand and have been around close to 2 decades.

Not to mention someone may be best known for something here, but that doesn't mean they were the first, best, or only one to do something.

Heck, I can recall when the 360 herringbone was a closely guarded secret. Even with a tutorial now sitting in the library it's not we can just all go kick one out in 20 minutes.

 

[Bob Wemm]

I understood that Wood Butcher was talking about a tutorial about the "process" of making a pen that already exists.
So why all the bother, all he wants to do is share how he makes the pen.
Nothing new about, just a different method????

Bob.

 

[SerenityWoodWorks]

There are no new ideas...just recycled ones that we havent been shown yet...carry on and teach!