1 1/2" die holder adapter

[Texatdurango]

At this time there is a buy going on for some taps and dies and because of the size of the threads involved the die is offered in either a 1" or 1 1/2" size. The 1" die will have some very thin walls around the chip clearance holes and while I'll be cutting mainly plastic and ebonite, there might be a chance I'll use the die to make threads in harder materials so decided to opt for the larger diamer diameter die. So......... I made an adapter for the die holder I currently have.

This might give some others some ideas so here goes.......

This photo shows the die holder as purchased from the Little Machine Shop http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2314&category= , it holds 1" diameter dies.

This shot shows the adapter I made from aluminum which is a tight slip fit over the existing holder. It is attached using three set screws and the nice thing is that I don't have to remove the smaller tap to use the adapter.

Here it is attached. I don't have the 1 1/2" die yet so can't drill and tap the set screw holes which will hold the larger die in place.

Here are some shots showing different angles of the adapter. Upper left shows the tight, no-slop fit. Upper right shows the smaller tap still inside. Lower left shows the set screws and how they fit into the main holder. I used three set screws from the lower end of the stock die holder and they are m4.7 so I drilled a .128" hole for tapping. Notice the small tip at the end, it is .097" diameter. I drilled an .098" hole in the main holder so when the set screw is screwed in, it will drive the tip into the body of the holder giving the adapter a very firm mount.

 

[simomatra]

Well done George thats the way.

 

[Curly]

That's a good idea. Thanks.

May I ask a question about the LMS die holder? Thanks I knew you would say yes. :wink: Does the die holder slide forward from the shaft/taper section, and if it does how far will it travel?

 

[MarkD]

Great idea George!

 

[cnirenberg]

George,
That's the way to do it. Great thinking outside of the box. I love it-one set up and done. Now I have to do it, and that is another story. At least this way you not limiting yourself to specific sizes in threads and you don't have to go and get more doo-dad's for the lathe.

 

[Texatdurango]

That's a good idea. Thanks.

May I ask a question about the LMS die holder? Thanks I knew you would say yes. :wink: Does the die holder slide forward from the shaft/taper section, and if it does how far will it travel?

Yes the holder slides forward about 2". Funny (embarrasing) story...... When I bought this a few years ago the rear set screws were tightened making the holder itself immovable so not knowing any better I simply held the whole thing by my right hand and hand turned the collet chuck in the headstock when threading. Finally one day I thought... this isn't right so I loosened the lower set screws and tried to rotate the holder itself.

The holder was on the shaft SO tight I had to get a drift punch to break it loose. Once loose and the packing grease cleaned out then oiled it worked like a charm. I only mention this in case someone else buys the same holder and theirs is tight as well. It DOES rotate around the shaft freely!

 

[Curly]

Thanks George. My question answered and more.

 

[lorbay]

George is the where you bought your die holder from???? Can't find anyone that sells them here.

Lin.

 

[Timebandit]

George is the where you bought your die holder from???? Can't find anyone that sells them here.

Lin.

http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2314&category

 

[Borg_B_Borg]

Another option is to use a micro three-jaw chuck like this:

http://www.pennstateind.com/store/LCM18X.html

It used to be only $40 a few years ago.

 

[BigShed]

George, I have added some pictures of a size comparison of a 1" M12 die and a 1 1/2" M14 die here.


http://www.penturners.org/forum/showpost.php?p=1249117&postcount=64

 

[Curly]

Another option is to use a micro three-jaw chuck like this:

http://www.pennstateind.com/store/LCM18X.html

It used to be only $40 a few years ago.

The problem with the little 3 jaw is that it is designed to fit a headstock spindle of either 3/4" x 16tpi, or 1" x 8tpi. The LMS die holder has a #2 Morse taper to fit the tailstock. With the pen held in a 4 jaw chuck or collet chuck in the headstock The die is presented from the tailstock to keep everything in alignment and hopefully avoid putting a cockeyed thread on the pen you just spent time making. If you have or know of a #2 Morse taper adaptor that fits the little chuck then it will work nicely to hold a range of dies.

It just dawned on me that you might be thinking of adapting the small chuck to fit the LMS die holder. Was that what you meant? That has potential.

 

[Borg_B_Borg]

Curly, try this MT2 version from Harbor Freight. I bought it several years ago for under $20 when it went on sale.

http://www.harborfreight.com/2-inch-mini-lathe-chuck-with-mt-2-shank-4486.html

 

[Texatdurango]

I started another thread to see if there was any interest in having some 1 1/2" holders made up, you can see it here...... http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?p=1250269#post1250269

 

[Borg_B_Borg]

The Harbor Freight 3-jaw chuck comes with an MT2. You put the chuck and die in the tailstock and the die is kept from rotating. To cut threads on the pen barrel, you turn the headstock (and barrel) against the die. You just have to leave the tailstock freely gliding and put a slight but constant pressure on the tailstock to move it into the headstock as the threads are cut. This is a different approach from using the Little Machine Shop die holder, in which you hold the headstock stationary and turn the die holder. In either case, alignment is preserved.

To me this is a much cheaper solution than buying the tailstock die holder set on eBay. Shipping of the set from the U.K. to the U.S. is what? $40 to $50?

Steve

The problem with the little 3 jaw is that it is designed to fit a headstock spindle of either 3/4" x 16tpi, or 1" x 8tpi. The LMS die holder has a #2 Morse taper to fit the tailstock. With the pen held in a 4 jaw chuck or collet chuck in the headstock The die is presented from the tailstock to keep everything in alignment and hopefully avoid putting a cockeyed thread on the pen you just spent time making. If you have or know of a #2 Morse taper adaptor that fits the little chuck then it will work nicely to hold a range of dies.

It just dawned on me that you might be thinking of adapting the small chuck to fit the LMS die holder. Was that what you meant? That has potential.
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[Timebandit]

Shipping is free on the one i am buying. Not sure which one you are looking at?

The Harbor Freight 3-jaw chuck comes with an MT2. You put the chuck and die in the tailstock and the die is kept from rotating. To cut threads on the pen barrel, you turn the headstock (and barrel) against the die. You just have to leave the tailstock freely gliding and put a slight but constant pressure on the tailstock to move it into the headstock as the threads are cut. This is a different approach from using the Little Machine Shop die holder, in which you hold the headstock stationary and turn the die holder. In either case, alignment is preserved.

To me this is a much cheaper solution than buying the tailstock die holder set on eBay. Shipping of the set from the U.K. to the U.S. is what? $40 to $50?

Steve

The problem with the little 3 jaw is that it is designed to fit a headstock spindle of either 3/4" x 16tpi, or 1" x 8tpi. The LMS die holder has a #2 Morse taper to fit the tailstock. With the pen held in a 4 jaw chuck or collet chuck in the headstock The die is presented from the tailstock to keep everything in alignment and hopefully avoid putting a cockeyed thread on the pen you just spent time making. If you have or know of a #2 Morse taper adaptor that fits the little chuck then it will work nicely to hold a range of dies.

It just dawned on me that you might be thinking of adapting the small chuck to fit the LMS die holder. Was that what you meant? That has potential.
[/font]

 

[Borg_B_Borg]

Justin:

Which eBay auction is that you're referring to which offers "free" shipping? That would be quite an offer. The one I'm looking at (auction #: 370461326803 by RDG Tools) costs £16.50 (just under $27 USD) for shipping to the U.S.

Steve

 

[simomatra]

the way I read it it is free in ECC postage to Australia is $25 Oz and $60 if I include the ER 32 at the same time. they also give an extra 5% if you use certain payment options

 

[BigShed]

Seeing that I just paid for my triple start 14mm tap and die set I thought I'd better get cracking on making a die holder for the 1.5" die in the set.

I already have the die holder from Little Machine Shop, but the largest die it accepts is 1".

George's post got me thinking that the 1" die holder could be used to hold a 1.5" adapter.

So I knocked up a couple yesterday (one for a pen making friend)

 

[Texatdurango]

Seeing that I just paid for my triple start 14mm tap and die set I thought I'd better get cracking on making a die holder for the 1.5" die in the set.

I already have the die holder from Little Machine Shop, but the largest die it accepts is 1".

George's post got me thinking that the 1" die holder could be used to hold a 1.5" adapter.

So I knocked up a couple yesterday (one for a pen making friend)

Fred I think you are on the right track and the adapter looks nice!

To those using the chucks to hold the die stationary in the tailstock..... I wish you luck but it seems backwards and very awkward to me and lacking the precise control required on these fine multi-start threads. Has anyone ever threaded this way yet? I'm curious to hear how you like it.

 

[Dalecamino]

Nice work on the adapter Fred. I am undecided on whether or not I will ever need one of these. I suppose one day in the future I may.

 

[PTownSubbie]

Seeing that I just paid for my triple start 14mm tap and die set I thought I'd better get cracking on making a die holder for the 1.5" die in the set.

I already have the die holder from Little Machine Shop, but the largest die it accepts is 1".

George's post got me thinking that the 1" die holder could be used to hold a 1.5" adapter.

So I knocked up a couple yesterday (one for a pen making friend)

Fred,

It looks like you took a little different approach from the way George did his. I looked like George mounted his adapter to the outside of the original holder where it looks like you mounted yours on the inside just like a die.

Can anyone help me understand how one would be better than the other? They both look great but is there an advantage of one over the other?

Thanks! You guys are inspiring me to make one. I just got some 2" aluminum stock to give it a try!

Fred

 

[Texatdurango]

.....It looks like you took a little different approach from the way George did his. I looked like George mounted his adapter to the outside of the original holder where it looks like you mounted yours on the inside just like a die.

Can anyone help me understand how one would be better than the other? They both look great but is there an advantage of one over the other?

Thanks! You guys are inspiring me to make one. I just got some 2" aluminum stock to give it a try!

Fred

I know this was addressed to Fred but since my version versus his is in question, I'll speak up from my viewpoint......

I was playing with my die holder one day and came up with the outer clamping method but there wasn't a lot of thought put into it, I just whipped it out and it worked.

After Fred discussed making one where the male tenon would fit inside the existing female cavity using the same set screws as the 1" die does, it made perfect sense and I made me another adapter, this time with the 1" tenon just like Freds. It works great, takes less material to make and is probably a bit quicker to fabricate. His idea is by far better than how I made mine!

So, now let's see another one!:biggrin:

 

[IPD_Mr]

I was playing with my die holder one day and came up with the outer clamping method but there wasn't a lot of thought put into it, I just whipped it out and it worked.

No pictures, it didn't happen. :biggrin::tongue::biggrin:

See George it is like this. You are mental and I am visual. Now if I could only see in your mind. :devil:

 

[Texatdurango]

I was playing with my die holder one day and came up with the outer clamping method but there wasn't a lot of thought put into it, I just whipped it out and it worked.

No pictures, it didn't happen. :biggrin::tongue::biggrin:

See George it is like this. You are mental and I am visual. Now if I could only see in your mind. :devil:

Huh what am I missing here? If you look at the photos in the first post, you will see several shots of the adapter.

 

[BigShed]

Seeing that I just paid for my triple start 14mm tap and die set I thought I'd better get cracking on making a die holder for the 1.5" die in the set.

I already have the die holder from Little Machine Shop, but the largest die it accepts is 1".

George's post got me thinking that the 1" die holder could be used to hold a 1.5" adapter.

So I knocked up a couple yesterday (one for a pen making friend)

Fred,

It looks like you took a little different approach from the way George did his. I looked like George mounted his adapter to the outside of the original holder where it looks like you mounted yours on the inside just like a die.

Can anyone help me understand how one would be better than the other? They both look great but is there an advantage of one over the other?

Thanks! You guys are inspiring me to make one. I just got some 2" aluminum stock to give it a try!

Fred

George has already answered your question Fred. I don't think it is a matter of which is better, I'm sure both will do the intended job.

As George said, the second version makes use of the existing grub screws and would be a bit easier to make because of that, only need to drill and tap 3 holes rather than 6.

I bored mine through to just over 19mm (3/4") so it can take dies up to size and still have some of the work pass through.

 

[PTownSubbie]

Thanks George & Fred!

I value both inputs! But George, you need to get some "Hot Fuschia" paint so your adapter can match your Die! LOL!!:biggrin:

I will get busy on mine. First thing I will have made on my cheapo metal lathe! Hope I can do it!

 

[Borg_B_Borg]

It seems odd that the 1.5" tailstock die holder with a #2 Morse taper is not sold by any merchant based in the U.S.

Steve

 

[Timebandit]

It seems odd that the 1.5" tailstock die holder with a #2 Morse taper is not sold by any merchant based in the U.S.

Steve

There is.....it just doesnt rotate freely like we want it to...its one solid piece

 

[Borg_B_Borg]

Then what's wrong with rotating the headstock instead of the tailstock?

Steve

It seems odd that the 1.5" tailstock die holder with a #2 Morse taper is not sold by any merchant based in the U.S.

Steve

There is.....it just doesnt rotate freely like we want it to...its one solid piece

 

[Timebandit]

It means that you have to apply forward preasure with your tailstack against your threads, and the opposite when you back it off to clears the chips from the threads. This puts extra force on your very small threads and your risk destroying them. The Little Machine Shop holder rotates freely on the Morse taper and you dont have to apply very much force in either direction to cut and clear chips. I literally barely apply force at all in either direction,Escpecially when clearing chips and i also kind of rotate the headstock and the die holder when i cut threads( not sure how to explain this) but it makes things go quicker. Once the Die tarts cutting it will make its own way.

Then what's wrong with rotating the headstock instead of the tailstock?

Steve

It seems odd that the 1.5" tailstock die holder with a #2 Morse taper is not sold by any merchant based in the U.S.

Steve

There is.....it just doesnt rotate freely like we want it to...its one solid piece

 

[Borg_B_Borg]

If I wanted to economize, I would just get a cheap one with a straight 1/2" or 3/4" fixed shank (like this http://www.wttool.com/index/page/pr...tegory_id/14647/product_name/Die+Holders+(WT) ) and somewhat loosely hold the shank in a collet chuck onto the tailstock. This will still permit free rotation, free travel, and alignment. Since I already have an ER32 collet chuck and 3/4" collet, maybe this is the cheapest way to go. It will do everything the LittleMachineShop holder will do at a fraction of the cost.

Steve

 

[Timebandit]

Yes if you already own a colet chuck with a morse taper on it then you can buy that and be done. Great idea by the way. Unfortunatly i dont have that kind of colet, mine is the threaded PSI colet chuck so i had to buy the LittleMachineShop one. So i would now have to buy a new colet chuck to do it your way. So my options are either making an adapter like George (which is the cheapest if you have the tools to make it,which i dont) or buying a nice machine made unit from overseas. For things like this i like the units to be made by a professional and be designed for the task.

If I wanted to economize, I would just get a cheap one with a straight 1/2" or 3/4" fixed shank (like this http://www.wttool.com/index/page/pr...tegory_id/14647/product_name/Die+Holders+(WT) ) and somewhat loosely hold the shank in a collet chuck onto the tailstock. This will still permit free rotation, free travel, and alignment. Since I already have an ER32 collet chuck and 3/4" collet, maybe this is the cheapest way to go. It will do everything the LittleMachineShop holder will do at a fraction of the cost.

Steve

 

[Texatdurango]

Yes if you already own a colet chuck with a morse taper on it then you can buy that and be done. Great idea by the way. Unfortunatly i dont have that kind of colet, mine is the threaded PSI colet chuck so i had to buy the LittleMachineShop one. So i would now have to buy a new colet chuck to do it your way. So my options are either making an adapter like George (which is the cheapest if you have the tools to make it,which i dont) or buying a nice machine made unit from overseas. For things like this i like the units to be made by a professional and be designed for the task.

Looking around my shop, clearly half the home made tools, jigs and shop aids are made from hard rock maple and many are a few dozen years old and still in great shape so I got to thinking today (right after my nap so it really didn't hurt that much)....

If one were to get a block of hard rock maple, turn it round then cut a 1" tenon then make the 1 1/2" recess to hold a 1 1/2" die, they would probably have a tool that would work just fine to hold a die!

As far as the three grub screws needed to tighten the die in the holder, I have threaded hard rock maple a lot and it holds a thread pretty well but for these tiny grub screw threads I would think the locale Ace hardware or Lowes would have some tiny metal inserts (heli-coils) which could be glued into the maple.

This might be an idea for those without metal turning capabilities, especially those who are talented enough to make some pretty snazzy bulb filler pens lately! :wink:

 

[Curly]

If I wanted to economize, I would just get a cheap one with a straight 1/2" or 3/4" fixed shank (like this http://www.wttool.com/index/page/pr...tegory_id/14647/product_name/Die+Holders+(WT) ) and somewhat loosely hold the shank in a collet chuck onto the tailstock. This will still permit free rotation, free travel, and alignment. Since I already have an ER32 collet chuck and 3/4" collet, maybe this is the cheapest way to go. It will do everything the LittleMachineShop holder will do at a fraction of the cost.

Steve

You could also hold a 1/2 bolt (sans thread and head) or bar tightly in the collet. Epoxy the fixed shank die holder into a wood (a la fuchsia boy :biggrin: ), plastic, or any other suitable material, turned and drilled cylinder, that can slide over the bolt. Now you have a thrifty holder that works like the LMS one and you don't chance spinning the die holder in your collet and scratching it. Those without the collet holder you have can put the bolt in their 1/2" drill chuck. It doesn't have to be a 1/2" bolt either. If you have a 3/8" or 7/16" they would work too.

 

[Timebandit]

Yep we could do all of these things and be thrifty.....but its not that big of a deal to me.......so il just order the professionally made one:biggrin:

 

[Texatdurango]

Well I got my die in yesterday so I finally finished drilling and tapping the set screw holes in my adapter.

I grabbed some delrin and made my first 14mm multi-start threads tonight and while my holder fits outside the 1" die holder rather than inside, I actually liked the feel when turning the holder. It's big and fits my hand well and is SOOOOOO easy to turn.

Now that I have the tenon and drill sizes figured out, it's time for a new pen tomorrow.

 

[BigShed]

Good on ya George, looks the goods.

Look forward to seeing your first pen.

I'm still waiting for my set to arrive.:frown:

 

[Dan_F]

Any reason why one shouldn't try making an adaptor like Georges, but out of something like Delrin that is easily machineable on a wood lathe? I would think that such a thing would be accurate and strong enough for use with plastic or hard rubber.

Dan

 

[Texatdurango]

Any reason why one shouldn't try making an adaptor like Georges, but out of something like Delrin that is easily machineable on a wood lathe? I would think that such a thing would be accurate and strong enough for use with plastic or hard rubber.

Dan

I see no reason why these adapters couldn't be made from something other than aluminum, in post #34 above I even suggested using hard rock maple.

I just used aluminum since I just happened to have a 2" diameter rod on hand in the shop.

Actually Delrin (Acetal) would work very well, the only drawback being the threads which hold the die in the adapter. But, the die would only need to be inserted once since I doubt it will be taken in and out of the adapter.

I think if I were to make one from delrin I would use Freds (Bigshed) design where the adapter fit inside the existing 1" holder. That way the set screws would be in the existing aluminum holder and less apt to wear out.

I checked at US Plastics, where I buy all my delrin, acrylic rods and sheet goods..... http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23671&catid=439 and delrin rod runs $17.56 a foot in the 2" diameter.

I already used my die holder on two acrylic pens and one ebonite pen and the die cuts through the material with ease so I think delrin would work very well. If I had a 2" rod of delrin I might just give it a try.