IAP 2008 BIRTHDAY BASH TRIVIA CONTEST- 10-JAN

[Randy_]

Welcome to the tenth day of this year's IAP TRIVIA CONTEST</u>. You will have until 12 noon ET tomorrow to email your answer to this question. Please be sure to include your IAP screen name with your answer so we know who you are.

All correct answers "postmarked" before noon will be placed in a hat and two winners selected every day. The winners will be announced about 8 P.M. ET of the day the question closes (or whenever I feel like it) and the decision of the TriviaMeister will be final.


!!!!!***HAVE FUN AND GOOD LUCK***!!!!!



Question for day 10.....

Question: OK, this is the last question for my part of the trivia contest. At first reading it will seem like a pretty tough question (One of the TriviaMeisters said it made his head hurt); but if you think about it for a minute, it is really quite simple and you can probably do the math faster than you can read the question. (It's probably about a 7th or 8th grade math question.........maybe even fifth grade??) Good luck!!

You live in a town with two saw mills and are thinking of starting a blank selling business. Both mills sell exotic lumber; but only in one board foot pieces. Mill "A" offers low prices; but only sells boards that are 12" x 12". Mill "B" is 50% more expensive; but will provide boards in any dimensions that you would like.

You plan to start off offering blanks for the Sierra kit since it is popular in your area. You know that you can get 64 blanks from a 12" x 12" board; but need to figure out how many blanks you can possibly get out of an optimally sized board.

Here are the figures you need. The bookkeeper is on vacation this week so you have to do your own calculations.

The blanks need to be 3/4" x 3/4" x 2.21" + 1/8"(to prevent blowouts). The kerf width on your saw is 3/32". Which mill offers the better deal and what is the maximum number of blanks you can expect to get from a board foot of lumber?


Note: If you don't have the foggiest idea, just guess. What have you got to loose?? Good luck!!)


Email your answer to: 2008bashtrivia@penturners.org
Please show the date and name of the contest in the title block of your email i.e., 10 Jan Trivia. (saves time for the TriviaMeister in processing entries.}



Note: "Laundry list" entries that include several possible alternative answers are "NOT" acceptable. Submit only one answer per question or question part(if there is a multi-part question) unless the question specifically asks for multiple answers. Thanks.

 

[Malainse]

How thick is the board ????

 

[IPD_Mrs]

And in which state did they bury the survivors?

Yes my head hurts too.

So which Mill is closer to my shop? Do they offer free coffee while I wait for them to complete my order? Do they take PayPal or do I have to stop at the bank and get cash?

Folks the reason Randy is late posting is it took him an hour to type this. He started it just before noon.[]

Thanks Randy, I was counting on something harder for your last question.

Mike

 

[Randy_]

Oops!! I wrote this question up in such a way that I thought that information was included; but I see that what I wrote could be taken two ways so I will revise the question. Thanks for pointing that out, Mitch!!

Added: I read the question again and it seems to me that everything you need is already there. Mike Do you agree??


Take no prisoners!!!

 

[Randy_]

Added: I read the question again and it seems to me that everything you need is already there. Mike Do you agree??

 

[Randy_]

Added: I read the question again and it seems to me that everything you need is already there. Mike Do you agree??

 

[GaryMGg]

Originally posted by Malainse

How thick is the board ????

Mitch -- a Board Foot is a board foot is a board foot is a board foot.

Yer welcome.

 

[DCBluesman]

Nolan's mill...and I'll get however many he sends me! (AFTER he feels better!)

 

[Malainse]

Originally posted by GaryMGg

Originally posted by Malainse

How thick is the board ????

Mitch -- a Board Foot is a board foot is a board foot is a board foot.

Yer welcome.

Sorry I forgot to add the in my question...[)]

 

[IPD_Mrs]

Yes Randy I do agree, but Linda is doin the math on our "guess".[}]

Mike

 

[jskeen]

I think you still need to specify if you are considering a board that is 12x12x1"= 1board foot, or if 12x12x3/4"= 1 bf. However I may be straining gnats at that distance.

 

[DozerMite]

Thickness doesn't matter...
A board ft. is a board ft.



A board ft. = 12"x12"x1"

But can be in any configuration. Did I say that right?

 

[alphageek]

I don't think there is quite enough information here.. I can come up with 2 different answers based on the 2nd part of James question. I don't think that we automatically follow Dozermites definition that thickness doesn't matter.

And if we really wanted to get 'nitpicky' I think we get 72 blanks out of a 12x12 board, but 8 of them are crosscut blanks (tongue firmly in cheek).

 

[ed4copies]

Originally posted by DozerMite

Thickness doesn't matter...
A board ft. is a board ft.



A board ft. = 12"x12"x1"

But can be in any configuration. Did I say that right?

Go to MY local sawmills (any of them - we have 5 choices) and you will pay for 4/4, at a minimum. Thinner stock is sold by the SQUARE foot, not the board foot.

 

[jskeen]

That's my point. a board foot is 12x12x1". a board foot at 3/4 inch is 12x15x3/4" at least it is down here.

 

[DozerMite]

Originally posted by ed4copies











Go to MY local sawmills (any of them - we have 5 choices) and you will pay for 4/4, at a minimum. Thinner stock is sold by the SQUARE foot, not the board foot.

4/4 is 1" stock( bd ft.). When you buy 1" lumber at HD or similar, it is 3/4" stock(sq. ft.). Correct?

 

[alphageek]

Originally posted by ed4copies
Go to MY local sawmills (any of them - we have 5 choices) and you will pay for 4/4, at a minimum. Thinner stock is sold by the SQUARE foot, not the board foot.

Thats the problem with the wording - at a 50% higher price and a statement of "any dimensions that you'd like" left this open to the other definition of board feet, which includes thickness.

 

[DozerMite]

Originally posted by jskeen

That's my point. a board foot is 12x12x1". a board foot at 3/4 inch is 12x15x3/4" at least it is down here.

That's what I was trying to say. It can be ANY configuration.

 

[great12b4ever]

Hey Randy,

what about cutting the blanks into octagonal pieces instead of square? You could then segment these so called scrap pieces and get extra blanks, and you could catch the sawdust and cast it for even more blanks. If you didn't get the optimum size board, you could use some of the leftovers and scraps and make worthless wood casts like in Curtis's tutorial. So using this as a basis, and then cutting these segemented and cast pieces into octagons, and further segmenting and casting these pieces, you could come up with a whole lot of blanks, even if some of the last ones had just a wee little bit of the original wood in them. [}]

I think it could be in the neighbor hood of 250 + blanks, especially if you used brass or aluminum between some of the segments.

Rob

 

[ed4copies]

Home Depot is not a sawmill.

 

[THarvey]

A board foot equals the volume of wood contained in a board that is 12" x 12" x 1".

The key word in the definition is volume. A board foot is any demention of lumber that contains the equivalent of 144 cubic inches.

I think all of the necessary information is in the question. (Well done, Randy.)

BTW: Randy, I miskeyed my answer on the number of blanks. Can I get a do over?

 

[ed4copies]

Originally posted by alphageek

Originally posted by ed4copies
Go to MY local sawmills (any of them - we have 5 choices) and you will pay for 4/4, at a minimum. Thinner stock is sold by the SQUARE foot, not the board foot.

Thats the problem with the wording - at a 50% higher price and a statement of "any dimensions that you'd like" left this open to the other definition of board feet, which includes thickness.

You're in Wisconsin, too!! Will you do me a favor and run to your local sawmill, tell them I'd like a board foot of veneer - 1/32" will do!!!

That'll amount to 32 SQUARE FEET. That board foot should be about $10 in walnut, cherry or maple.

THANKS!!!!

 

[alphageek]

Originally posted by THarvey

A board foot equals the volume of wood contained in a board that is 12" x 12" x 1".

The key word in the definition is volume. A board foot is any demention of lumber that contains the equivalent of 144 cubic inches.

I think all of the necessary information is in the question. (Well done, Randy.)

BTW: Randy, I miskeyed my answer on the number of blanks. Can I get a do over?

ROFL.. go back and read Eds answer - you each are convinced you have the 'correct' definition... And you each picked different definitions.

Thus why I think Randy needs to clarify or I'm going to have to flip a coin.

 

[ed4copies]

Forget the coin, send me the veneer!!!!!

 

[alphageek]

Originally posted by ed4copies
You're in Wisconsin, too!! Will you do me a favor and run to your local sawmill, tell them I'd like a board foot of veneer - 1/32" will do!!!

Actually, the best place I have found for my woods up here lists the thickness, then the price per board foot. My point is there is others that will take the other definition (in cubic inches).

 

[THarvey]

ROFL.. go back and read Eds answer - you each are convinced you have the 'correct' definition... And you each picked different definitions.

Thus why I think Randy needs to clarify or I'm going to have to flip a coin.

The question does not mention anything about how a "normal" mill sells lumber that is less than 4/4. It says that both mills sell lumber by the "board foot". A board foot is a defined measure of volume, not area. (reference: www.m-w.com)

I agree with Ed. My local mill sells small thickness by the square foot also. But, that is not how the question is stated. Square foot only measures the surface area of the top surface.

 

[ed4copies]

And their DEFINITION will be correct.

We are, however, talking about SAWMILLS and purchasing FROM THEM!

Find me one that will take thickness into account under 4/4 and I will patronize THEM. IF we are going to teach about sawmills and board feet, it would be GOOD to teach what actually happens so you don't walk in and make a fool of yourself purchasing half-inch stock. DAMHIKT!!!!!

 

[UKpenmaker]

You have all missed the very easy answer to this.[:0]
.
.
.
.
.
.
You just wait a week until the book-keeper gets back, no more headaches.[][}]

 

[THarvey]

Originally posted by ed4copies

And their DEFINITION will be correct.

We are, however, talking about SAWMILLS and purchasing FROM THEM!

Find me one that will take thickness into account under 4/4 and I will patronize THEM. IF we are going to teach about sawmills and board feet, it would be GOOD to teach what actually happens so you don't walk in and make a fool of yourself purchasing half-inch stock. DAMHIKT!!!!!

Ed, I agree.

However, I do not think the trivia question is concerned with realistic circumstances of purchasing from actual mills.

 

[ed4copies]

I've calmed down. I actually DID try this, when I started turning.

Part of the purpose of these "quizzes" is to educate. We all know the members are using the internet to research some answers.

I was a Math major - before computers. I CAN find the answer in seconds by using the volume method - that would "teach" me math. However, the IAP is a better tool for me to learn "penmaking". And, if I walk into the local sawmill and ask for their board-foot pricing, then try to factor for 3/4", I will look poorly informed.

So, we have both contributed to the education of the membership.

Thanks for not blasting me, when I may have sounded dogmatic.

What Randy wants for an answer is immaterial, I hope the membership has learned something useful from the thread.

Sorry if I was offensive in any way.








I am, however, still waiting for my $10 worth of veneer.

 

[GaryMGg]

FWIW: I won't submit an answer but I'll have one.

I'm ok with Randy's explanation on this one. No foul

I would use the Mathematical unit of a BF: A Board Foot is 144 inches.
It can be:
12" X 12" X 1"
or
6" X 24" X 1"
or
6" X 12" X 2"
or
<s>6</s> 12" X 24" X .5"
or
Any Combination that adds works out to 144 inches.

A couple of things:

(A) That's somewhat theoretical because most retailers sell a 3/4" thick board that's been "surfaced" as 4/4.
(B) Board foot is typically only used for hardwood but down here they'll sell Cypress and Longleaf or Heart Pine by the BF.
(C) Some guys charge for shrinkage but the industry doesn't condone it and I've not had any sawyer do that with me; all the sawyers I've purchased from have generously provided more than was being bought. Just as we don't adjust the BF'age based on their generosity, we shouldn't adjust the BF'age based on those who extract more $$ from you than the amount you're buying.

When I went to my sawyer to ask for 600 BF of Cypress milled to 2/4 that's what I get. I wasn't charged for 1200BF as is being suggested.
When I went to my sawyer to get 50 BF of Aromatic Cedar milled to 2/4 to line a storage closet, that's what I got. I wasn't charged for 100 BF.

I did pay a premium for the extra time required to saw the same amount of BF, but nowhere near the amount that's being suggested.

Retail and sawmill usually are different beasts.

NB:
Having just read Ed's latest posts (man, I'm slow this afternoon) the sentence above should read "Retail and sawmills in Florida are diffferent beasts."
And, I've also had a little bit of 2/4 cherry mixed in with my 4/4 and 8/4 orders. [8D]

 

[THarvey]

Nothing offensive here. The trivia questions have a tendency to be very literal in the wording.

I think the Trivia Miester intentionally words these things to encourage the comments, questions and discussions.



BTW: If you find that $10 venere, by double then call me. []

 

[THarvey]

Gary,

Your last example is 72 cubic inches, not 144. [)]

Your point is well made.

 

[IPD_Mrs]

Gary the only error I see with your post is the 1/2". I buy from three different millers (and none of them begin with the word Home[:0]). It does not matter if I buy 100 board foot of 13/16" or 100 board foot of 1/2". Both are priced as 4/4. Now this may be a reginal thing or Gary's sawyers may cut, kiln, then mill his order, but around here 1/4 to 4/4 is still one inch and I wish it weren't so as I use a lot of 3/8" oak.

Mike

 

[ed4copies]

Mike,

Buy 4/4, get a large bandsaw and re-saw.

3/8 is easy!!!

'corse a smart guy might solve this trivia by buying 6/4, then the above "board foot" definitions would be applicable AND true, in the real world.

 

[DCBluesman]

You guys need to be careful. With all of these discussions regading the trivia contest, I just might learn something about woodworking! [8D] BTW, thanks for these excellent discussions. I've never even SEEN a sawmill.

 

[alphageek]

Originally posted by THarvey

Nothing offensive here. The trivia questions have a tendency to be very literal in the wording.

I think the Trivia Miester intentionally words these things to encourage the comments, questions and discussions.

BTW: If you find that $10 venere, by double then call me. []

Agreed... I don't think we're fighting, I think we are talking about the fact that there is 2 definitions of "board feet".

As for that $10 veneer... depends what you are looking for.. Last time I went wood shopping in MKE, the Rockler had a huge box of veneers packaged up. I grabbed a light pack (maple I think), which was at least 1/2 inch thick (15 or so pieces) and nearly a "board foot" in size.. for a whopping $3 a pack. Thats what I used in my slimlines for last weeks contest. Had I known they were worth so much I could've gotten more

 

[GaryMGg]

I corrected my mathematical error in my OP (perhaps why I'm not making an official entry [:0]) but my statements of purchase in that post are facts not hypothetical scenarios.
Some members here have seen the 600 BF stickered stack of 2/4 Cypress sitting on my deck. Cost: roughly $700.00 from a sawyer who today is asking $1.15/BF for 4/4 Cypress of the same quality.
The sawyer down the road from me milled 50 BF of aromatic cedar for me at 2/4 because I was lining a storage closet. The price was per board foot and not much different than 50 BF of 4/4.
Once the mill is set to make a cut [in this case, a Woodmizer], it's time. Back then it was $40.00 per hour.
Same with the sawyer who cut 1000 BF of black cherry for me; I wanted a little cut at 2/4 -- no problem.
Now, if I went to some sawmill wherein they didn't know me or I hadn't built a relationship and asked for 10 BF of 1/4 whatever, sure they'd either laugh me off OR charge me for a running BF.

 

[IPD_Mrs]

Originally posted by ed4copies

Mike,

Buy 4/4, get a large bandsaw and re-saw.

3/8 is easy!!!

'corse a smart guy might solve this trivia by buying 6/4, then the above "board foot" definitions would be applicable AND true, in the real world.

Yes Ed it is easy to resaw if you have the time. That is not the point I was making with Gary's post of 144 square inches is a board foot in regards to what you pay for it.

Let's say I call ahead to my lumber supplier and order ten boards 6" wide 6' long and 3/8" thick. I am billed for 30 board feet.

Lets say I order ten boards 6" wide 6' long and 3/4" thick. I am billed for 30 board feet.

This is the way three different sawyers bill around here. Oh and for red oak we typically pay $2.50 a board foot, so I don't complain too much.

Mike

 

[THarvey]

Wow!

Already three pages of discussions. I think the main reason the questions are worded the way they are is to create these types of discussions.

I have learned a lot out of this thread.

For one, I know I do not want to buy any 3/8" stock from some of your mills.