Turning end grain for the first time

Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
See more from silent soundly

Joined
Jun 2, 2015
Messages
81
Location
Modesto, CA
Getting into using the lathe, I have probably made 20 or so pens. My shop was unusable for a long time and I am just getting back to it now. I decided to try something that required end grain turning and boy-oh-boy is that a learning experience. as you can see in the pic below, I laminated a piece of figured walnut between two pieces of oak (?). Not really sure about the oak. It came from a piece of furniture. This finished box is about 2" diameter. I got tons of catches before finally being able to turn comfortably on the end grain. The oak didn't turn very well overall, but it sanded just fine. The tenons went well and the pieces fit very nicely together.



View in Gallery


View in Gallery

Read the next comment to see my "slight" error.
 
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad

Skie_M

Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2015
Messages
2,737
Location
Lawton, Ok
Hey ... gotta start learning SOMEWHERE, right? :)

The finish on those little boxes looks great!

That lighter colored wood appears as though it might be a mahogany, rather than oak ... still looks pretty! :)



Before parting something off the lathe ... take a measuring stick or ruler or whatever's handy, while the lathe is turned off (or on if you are very careful), put it down the center of the item you are parting off to see how far down it can go before bottoming out. Make sure you are in the MIDDLE where it's the lowest!

Place a finger on the item you are measuring with at a point that is level with the opening of the hole, and then transfer the measuring item to the outside of the container to see (from the outside) how far down inside your hole has gone. Give yourself an extra 1/4 inch for stability and peace of mind (or perhaps a bit more ... call it "balancing" mass, so it'll stay standing upright!), and mark the item for cutoff.

Good luck, keep your tools sharp, and invest in or make yourself a THIN cutoff/parting tool .... (Captain Eddie has a good video about turning a demolition blade into one of these).
 

JimB

Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
4,682
Location
West Henrietta, NY, USA.
I know how you feel about end grain turning. My first time was challenging and I didn't know what I was doing wrong. Then I realized my problem was I was trying to do it like I did bowls. I needed to use different tools and needed to hold them differently when doing end grain turnings.
 

MDWine

Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
2,693
Location
Manassas Park, Virginia, USA.
Ya never know when a "lidded funnel" will be a thing!
I blew up my first hollowing doing a Christmas ornament. It was going pretty well, but I did the same thing and didn't measure or plan. I may have been a bit "enthusiastic" with the hollowing!! lol

I think if you pick a contrasting wood to fill the hole, you can call it a design feature.
I like the woods and finish tho, I think you're off to a great start... it's all education, right?

Keep up the good work!
 

Skie_M

Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2015
Messages
2,737
Location
Lawton, Ok
Measure Twice, Cut Once! ..... or oops! :(

(Yes, we've all been there and done that, and most of us have blocked out that unpleasant and usually VERY OLD memory! lol .... )
 

Charlie_W

Member
Joined
Nov 16, 2011
Messages
5,918
Location
Sterling, VA USA
Another thought is to turn the bottom opening to match up with the diameter and thickness needed for a coin or medallion. Might look less like a funnel repair.
It could be turned with a shoulder for the coin to register against.
Insetting a companion coin inside the lid could help pull off the newly designed piece!
 
Joined
Jun 2, 2015
Messages
81
Location
Modesto, CA
Another thought is to turn the bottom opening to match up with the diameter and thickness needed for a coin or medallion. Might look less like a funnel repair.
It could be turned with a shoulder for the coin to register against.
Insetting a companion coin inside the lid could help pull off the newly designed piece!

Such a great idea. Too bad I already glued a blank to the bottom. Wish me luck.
 

D.Oliver

Member
Joined
May 10, 2011
Messages
3,531
Location
Faith SD
I know how you feel about end grain turning. My first time was challenging and I didn't know what I was doing wrong. Then I realized my problem was I was trying to do it like I did bowls. I needed to use different tools and needed to hold them differently when doing end grain turnings.

Jim, could you expand on this a little? What type of tools do you recommend and how do you hold them? I've never turned a lidded box, but it is on my list of things to do some day.
 

Skie_M

Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2015
Messages
2,737
Location
Lawton, Ok
[yt]nlTLHITalTE[/yt]

A beginner's video for turning a lidded box .... youtube search, first hit. :)



Adding some more concerning technique and differences ...


Take a block of wood and stand it on the lathe ways with the end grain facing up ... if it were mounted on the spindle, then the sides of the blank would be end grain and long grain (cutting with the grain of the wood as opposed to across it ... there may be another term for this, but I don't recall it at the moment). Hollowing it out would then be face grain cutting, as you are cutting across the grain and with the grain, as you progress through each revolution.


In turning a bowl, you will be turning end grain or face grain or long grain - all three, as a bowl is a 3D object with multiple complex curves ... the major difference between that and turning a small lidded box is that generally, with the box, you'll be turning endgrain almost exclusively while hollowing, and spindle turning or face grain while turning the sides. Long grain turning on a box is generally eliminated, because you generally will have end grain along the axis of the spindle, with the example block from above laying on it's side, with end grain against your spindle and tailstock ends, all the sides facing out, as in spindle turning.


Now ... in bowl turning, the tools used most often are bowl gouges. This is probably a surprise to new wood turners... :tongue:

The Bowl Gouge
You will learn to master the gouge to do multiple types of cuts. The hollow of the gouge, or flute, is there to help present the edge of the tool as you work your way round the work piece as well as channel the cuttings away from the tool tip so that you can see what you are doing.

In cutting end grain with the gouge, a shearing cut is probably one of the best, leaving a very clean and uncompressed (little to no burnishing) surface, but is difficult to master as it does NOT use the bevel to guide the cut. It leaves a finely cut surface that requires little to no sanding before finishing. Present the tool at a 90 degree angle to the work surface, bevel facing directly AWAY from the surface .... roll the tool very slightly out (top away, bottom towards the work) and gently make contact. Keep the tool tight against the tool rest, pivoting on that contact point as you control the tool tip with the BACK of the tool handle. Longer is better ... more leverage and finer control.

In cutting face or long grain with the gouge, using the bevel to guide the cut is the best course for easy work. Keep tool tight against tool rest ... come in at a steep angle to let the bevel make contact with the work, and then raise the handle from the BACK of the tool to put the cutting edge into contact with the wood. Longer handles are better, for leverage and finer control.

Presenting the gouge at a negative rake angle takes the gouge's bevel away from the work in order to achieve a scraping cut. Again, with no bevel, there's little to no burnishing, leaving a surface that may be fine enough to immediately skip to finishing, with little to no sanding required. It is more difficult to keep the tool under control, as the bevel would normally prevent the tool tip from digging into the work too deeply. Scrapers have a much blunter tip in order to prevent this from happening. Start with the tool tip UNDER the center of rotation (tool rest will seem to be too low) and the back of the tool held HIGH (above the tool tip) with the tool tight against the tool rest. Advance the tool slowly to make contact with the work. Long handles can help to keep the tool under control, but advancing the tool will be more problematic, as there is only you to guide it ... the levering action will be negated without the bevel in play.

As you can see, the bowl gouge is made for multiple purposes. You can turn an entire bowl or lidded box or even pens with just one single bowl gouge. The only things a bowl gouge does NOT do well is anything requiring a square sharp corner or parting something off of the lathe.


The Skew
A skew is great for spindle turning, but has little application in bowl turning ... You could use it to shape the outside of the bowl to some degree, but then you're done with it. It's great for getting a box's outsides round and shaped properly. The most used cuts for boxes will generally be the peeling cut, to help you get down to your target exterior size. The slicing cut with the skew can then help you create an even cylinder to reach your starting point, but then you'll generally put the skew away. Skews can also be used for scraping, but scrapers generally do the job just a bit better and can get into tighter quarters.

What a skew excels at, and other tools fall far behind on, is making beads and finely evened (level) surfaces. Also, nothing else in your chisel collection will achieve a peeling cut nearly as well as a skew can. The peel cut is achieved with the tool handle held far down, tool tight against tool rest, make contact with the bevel ... holding the skew at the angle of it's grind, to present the edge of the blade equally against the work. Lift the tool handle (long handles are best, for this), to present the edge to the work and you'll see why it's called the peel cut in one hell of a hurry. Nothing else removes material quite as fast ... it's excellent for making tenons in a hurry.

A skew can give you sharp corners, provided you can get the tool to fit in there, and can also be used to part off from the lathe. You can turn an entire spindle project with just the skew, but hallowing something with the skew is practically impossible. Now ... if you do all your hallowing by just drilling on the lathe, that could be a different story... :)


The Scraper
Scrapers come in several shapes and sizes, some with a rounded tip and some with a squared tip. They are generally quite blunt, in appearance, and are designed to be presented with a zero angle or negative angle in order to achieve their cutting action. The bevel is not actually designed to be held in contact with the work ... just the tip. The bevel of a scraper is meant only to reinforce the cutting tip to avoid chipping and breakage. The larger the scraper, the better, as larger, heavier scrapers tend to "chatter" or vibrate less. Use it in the same way I described using the bowl gouge as a scraper.

Scrapers, with their blunter tips, can get away with having a SMALLER handle, for close in work. They are excellent for getting into tight spaces and cutting on end grain, though they work OK for face turning. Scrapers are meant to be used for hollowing objects, and with shorter handles you can easily get into the hollow of a bowl or lidded box to do your work, allowing you to hold the tool at various angles you may find unworkable for a long handled bowl gouge. Many detail tools are scrapers, in design.


The Parting Tool
The diamond parting tool has very little use in bowl turning, other than parting something off the lathe or setting your tenon. In fact, I've only used my parting tool TWICE, since I bought it .... it's very wide to be using for pens, so I haven't turned much with it. I generally part items off using a home made THIN parting tool that I made in my shop.

I went to a big box store and grabbed a cheap(ish) demolition blade (Diablo ... 4 bucks for one, it was decent size at around 7 inches long, and nearly 1/16th inch thick). I shaped it on my belt sander to remove all the teeth and profile the tip to my liking, then I drilled holes through the back of the blade and mounted a wooden handle to it for easier handling.

The THIN parting tool I made is excellent and gets the most use with making pens and saving as much as I can of the cutoff material, but it also shines for parting off a lid with as little of the grain pattern lost as possible, in order to have lids and box bodies that match grain patterns when closed. The same principle is applied for penmaking, to match the grain pattern from one section of the pen to the next.

To use it ... hold the tool tight against the tool rest, and present the bevel to the work ... lift the tool handle to achieve a peeling cut that digs into the work. Make certain you are holding the tool vertically! For every half inch or so of depth, you will need to go back and make a relief cut to allow for your blade clearance so that you can cut deeper without "burning" your work.

A last bit of concern with parting things off the lathe .... Even with a thin parting tool, the wood fibers and grain may be weakened if you make the box or bowl's bottom too thin as you are parting it off, and it will tear the center of the hollow completely out. Always ensure that you are giving yourself at least 1/4" for clearance so that the wood has enough strength to survive the parting process. Sometimes, it may also be best to just get it somewhat close on the lathe, and finish the last inch or so on the bandsaw or with a hand saw and clean it up with some very sharp wood chisels. There is no shame in taking the time to do it by hand if your lathe or your work material gives you difficulty!
 
Last edited:

JimB

Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
4,682
Location
West Henrietta, NY, USA.
I know how you feel about end grain turning. My first time was challenging and I didn't know what I was doing wrong. Then I realized my problem was I was trying to do it like I did bowls. I needed to use different tools and needed to hold them differently when doing end grain turnings.

Jim, could you expand on this a little? What type of tools do you recommend and how do you hold them? I've never turned a lidded box, but it is on my list of things to do some day.

If you watch the video posted by Skie you will see him do the hollowing two ways. Sometimes he goes from the outside to the center and other times from the center to the outside.

What I was taught was to drill a depth hole and go from the center (the hole) to the outside just like he does. I use a Detail Spindle Gouge not a bowl gouge. If you use a bowl gouge you are more likely to get a catch with the wings.

I have also done a few using carbide tools... the round one. I rarely use my carbide tools but I do often find them useful for endgrain turning. I have also found round scrapers work well for final cuts.

I'll add I am not an expert in this. I have probably only turned about 12 to 15 lidded endgrain boxes but each time it got easier. They have also not been very deep so I was not over reaching with the detail gouge.

I hope all that makes sense.
 
Last edited:

Skie_M

Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2015
Messages
2,737
Location
Lawton, Ok
I know how you feel about end grain turning. My first time was challenging and I didn't know what I was doing wrong. Then I realized my problem was I was trying to do it like I did bowls. I needed to use different tools and needed to hold them differently when doing end grain turnings.

Jim, could you expand on this a little? What type of tools do you recommend and how do you hold them? I've never turned a lidded box, but it is on my list of things to do some day.

If you watch the video posted by Skie you will see him do the hollowing two ways. Sometimes he goes from the outside to the center and other times from the center to the outside.

What I was taught was to drill a depth hole and go from the center (the hole) to the outside just like he does. I use a Detail Spindle Gouge not a bowl gouge. If you use a bowl gouge you are more likely to get a catch with the wings.

I have also done a few using carbide tools... the round one. I rarely use my carbide tools but I do often find them useful for endgrain turning. I have also found round scrapers work well for final cuts.

I'll add I am not an expert in this. I have probably only turned about 12 to 15 lidded endgrain boxes but each time it got easier.

I hope all that makes sense.

In response to the highlighted text quoted ... the gouge in use in that video is indeed a bowl gouge, but the grind of the tool's tip was modified. It is NOT a standard bowl gouge anymore, with that profile ... it is called an "Ellsworth grind". The Ellsworth doesn't have the high wings that catch, but still provides all the best cutting action a bowl gouge can provide. You can take the time to put an Ellsworth grind on your bowl gouges, but it can be a bit difficult to master getting it right ... I wish you guys the best of luck at it!

I'm no expert either ... I've done ONE single lidded box, but I'm right proud of this little piece of cedar! The lid fits airtight, the grain pattern matches up, and it's a gorgeous lustrous finish in CA. This is the "Aromatic Cedar" that you can find in some lumberyards and home centers ... with the red and cream colored grain and very RICH cedar smell. I left the interior unfinished, so that I can enjoy the smell of cedar whenever I wish.
 
Top Bottom