What happened?

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airrat

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I was showing Robert how to pour some cactus blanks using alumilite. We had some extra from the first batch and colored it. (yellow) Then I mixed up some more and colored it black. Used a little pearl essence in it to see what it would do. But this is the result I got. What happened?



20075281744_DSC02981.jpg




200752817432_DSC02982.jpg
 
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gketell

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I want to see the other side. That looks cool.

Alumilite bubbles with moisture. Could the cactus have been wet still? Or maybe the pearlescence (sp?) caused a reaction. Only the black did that, where did the pearl go?

Hmmmm turn a pen from the bottom portion and then fill the "pores" with bright blue or green. I bet that would look really good. [:D]

GK
 

airrat

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This was the leftovers. My wife says it looks like I burnt Spongebob. YEAH!!!!!! Only the black did it and it was only the black I added to the yellow. The left over stuff in the cup did not do this.
 

MesquiteMan

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Your cactus skeletons are not 100% dry. I have had this happen with Alumilite RC3 black and it looked EXACTLY like yours. I suspected moisture problems and so I called and talked with Mike, the VP at Alumilite. I sent him a picture and he confirmed that it was a moisture problem. Try drying your skeletons in a toaster oven before casting.
 

airrat

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This was pure alumilite, no cactus skeletons. This was extra I mixed up.

The skeletons I poured came out fine. I left them out in the arizona sun for a few days.


Curtis, I wonder if it was the liquid Pearl I added to the black. I added it to the yellow too but it did not have a reaction.
 

Fred

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My first - and only thought - was exactly what SKIPRAT said, "To much yeast!"

Maybe the two resins had a combined catalyst content that caused the two to over react? Were they the same brand of resin?
 

MesquiteMan

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Tom,

Could your mold possibly have had some water in it somehow? I am going to contact Mike at Alumilite and ask him to look in on this thread and give his opinion.
 

Alumilite

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Hello all,

Sorry I haven't been able to check in lately.

My initial reaction is this is definitely a moisture issue and since there wasn't any cactus, it would point toward the pearl. The inconsistencies bother me though. You added the pearl to the yellow and it didn't foam. You added it to the black, I'm assuming, in the cup and the black that was left in the cup didn't foam?? In theory, the only possibility (which I'm not buying into would be) that there was a drop of water on the cured yellow before the black was poured in that was then mixed in to the black/pearl causing it to foam. Kind of like the butler with the knife in the library type of thing.

Few questions which might help us get down to the bottom of this ...

What is the pearl material?
Is it a powder, paste, sludge, liquid?
Did you add the same amount of pearl into the black as you did the yellow?
Was there any thickness to what was left in the cup or was it just the residual on the walls of the cups?
Which Alumilite did you pour, Clear or RC-3?

Mike
Alumilite
800 447-9344
 

airrat

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Hi Mike,

It was a liquid. I have ordered powder but don't have it yet. I added a little more to the black due to it being the larger amount. There was a little bit left in the cup, somewhere between an 1/8th to a 1/16th. It was the Clear.

Here is what all we did.
We poured 4 cactus blanks. There was some left over so we added some Pear and Yellow dye( dye was bought from alumilite) and poured it into a mold. Then we started mixing up more to finish filling the mold. The yellow stated to gel up and we put some shape into it, just to see what it would look like.
With the black I added the dye and pearl to part "A" and mixed it up. Then added part "B" and mixed it up. This did not seem to "warm" up like the first batch. (I used a digital scale to measure amounts so I know this was correct) We poured it into the mold with the yellow. After about 3 minutes, we had our back turned, we look back at the mold and see what I pictured.
 

JimGo

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Mike,
Just wanted to say thank you for helping out here - it's realy great when we can get info straight from the vendor, rather than us making (however educated they may be) guesses as to what's going on. And it's especially nice to have the info in a publicly available place like this. I'm currently a polyester resin person, but if your continued contributions here are any indication of the level of customer service Alumilite offers, I just might have to look into Alumilite a little more.
 

MesquiteMan

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Greg,

Alumilite clear has plenty of open time for everything I have done. I routinely mix 19 oz. of resin at a time for my cactus blanks and have never had any issues at all. I believe the open time starts after you have the resin mixed which give you 4.5 minutes to get it poured. That is actually quite a long time. Call Mike at Alumilite and ask him for a sample to try out. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
 

Alumilite

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Airrat,

Thanks for the clarification on those points.

Can you provide me with the name of the Pearl solution you are using. I'll try to dig into it to see what the % of water is in the solution. Typically anything over .1% water in a urethane will cause a visible foam reaction. That doesn't seem like much and it really isn't but as far as the reaction goes, it is a lot.

I'm guessing that the pearlescent solution contains a fairly good percentage of water or is a water base solution. Whatever amount you added to the yellow probably kept the total water content of the yellow below the visible thresh hold in the cured urethane but the larger amount you added in the black pushed you well over the limit of what would be noticed in the finished cast piece. I know the black dye does contain a slightly higher percentage of water than the yellow does which helped it reach the visible point quicker than the yellow as well.

The reason it may not have been as noticeable in the cup was probably due to the thickness that was left in the cup vs the thickness in the mold. The thinner the section, the less noticeable a 100% increase in volume would appear. For instance if you had a coating on the side/bottom of the cup that was .050" and it became .100" that is one thing but to take a 1/2" and make it foam out of the mold to 1" thick, that is something else.

Even though you are getting the pearl in a powder form, make sure to find out the water content %. This info may also appear on the MSDS. But if you have the ability to speak to someone in tech service, I'd highly recommend asking for the % of water in both the powder and the solution. If the solution was water base, see if they have an oil base version of the same thing. That will work much better for you.

JimGo,

Glad to be apart of this forum and we are always glad to help when we can regardless of the material. We're a small company who try to help everyone we run into as if they were family. We've made a lot of friends this way as well as customers. Give us a call anytime, ask for me or talk to someone regarding what you'd like to do. We're not the answer for every application but we'll give you a straight answer up front whether we think we can help you or not.

Thanks,
Mike
Alumilite
800 447-9344
 

Alumilite

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Greg,

Sorry I forgot to address this issue.

Yeah, Curtis is right ... the Clear has a 5 minute open time. Typically it takes a maximum of 1 minute to stir completely and pour. Once it is poured, simply put it in a pressure pot to cure. Many of our customers, mix it, vacuum it, then pour, then pressure. This is our standard procedure for casting intricate clear parts that are 100% bubble free. Depending on the mass (over 20 oz), 5 minutes can get a little tight but typically doable.

If you need an extra minute or two of open time, simply place the A side in the refridgerator or in a bucket of ice as one of my customers does for an hour before mixing. This will delay the initial reaction and lengthen the open time. We do NOT recommend this when pouring thin or small parts and we always recommend preheating your mold when using this technique to be sure the resin has the heat it needs to cure properly. If you are casting a few ounces in block to turn into a pen, the material should push through the cold A side and simply cure a few minutes slower than it normally would giving you the extra time you desire.

Mike
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airrat

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Thanks Mike, I had a feeling it was the Pearl essence. Is there one you recommend or I cannot remember did you all carry some on your site?
 

gketell

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Mike,

thanks for the response. Yes, I had read the "refridgeration" method to slow the process on your website. I'm new to casting and just don't trust myself to do it all properly in the time given to use your product. Maybe in the future after I have more experience using PR so I know the process better.

Thanks!
GK
 

Alumilite

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Airrat,

Unfortunately we don't carry any pearl dye colors. We only carry standard colors as well as some flesh tone colors for the special effects and doll industry. If you can find any hobby or craft oil base pearl paints, try using them. They typically offer a lot of different pearl and very fine glittery colors in a wide selection. Just make sure it is an oil or acrylic base. I have some acrylic from Deco Art that has a metallic color. I'll try to add some in the clear tomorrow and let you know how it comes out.

Greg,

Understand the comfort level thing completely. If you ever want to play with a little, give me a call and I'll send you a small sample. When you get it, give me a call and I'll walk you through it over the phone when you use it to make sure you are comfortable with it.

Mike
Alumilite
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gerryr

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If Alumilite is sensitive to water why would you put acrylic paint in it? I thought it was a water based paint. I'm not being facetious, I have some acrylic paint that I would love to be able to use, but would never think of trying it since I always thought it was water based.
 

Alumilite

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gerryr,

Great question. I asked the same question to my painting gal here in the office yesterday before I did some tests. I asked her if acrylic paint was water base or whether it contained any water? She told me she was pretty sure it was not. So this morning as soon as I got here I tested a strip of acrylic base metallic paints from Deco Art. I mixed one batch of Alumilite Clear (close to a 100 grams), vacuumed it and poured it in 6 different 1 oz cups. I then took 5 different colors from the Deco Art variety color strip and mixed them into the 5 cups, leaving one to be clear (the control).

3 of 5 turned out great. The pearl and especially the silver foamed terribly and look very similar to the black picture in airrat's first post. I only added a very small amount of the blue to see if varying the amount would have an affect.

I took a picture of the cups and the paint strip.
200753114739_Clear%20and%20Acrylic%20Paint%20Test.jpg
<br />

I will call a friend of mine at Deco Art and see what she can tell me about the percentage of water in the different paints and how much they vary.

I know I have used oil base paints successfully in the past but acrylics offer so many more color options (pearl, metallics, etc.) and typically are more readily available in smaller quantities. That was my line of thinking and why I asked the gal here and why I tested the acrylics this morning. I had no idea they were in fact water base. But from these test results, some may have a much lower and acceptable level of water where they may not affect the Clear resin. It may be worth doing a small test with the paints you wish to use to see if they foam or whether or not they would in fact work for you.

Mike
Alumilite
800 447-9344
 

airrat

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Mike just want to let you know, it is nice to see a company work with a group on utilization of their product. Thanks for keeping up on this with us.
 
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Originally posted by Alumilite

<b>Snip</b>

If you need an extra minute or two of open time, simply place the A side in the refridgerator or in a bucket of ice as one of my customers does for an hour before mixing. This will delay the initial reaction and lengthen the open time. We do NOT recommend this when pouring thin or small parts and we always recommend preheating your mold when using this technique to be sure the resin has the heat it needs to cure properly. If you are casting a few ounces in block to turn into a pen, the material should push through the cold A side and simply cure a few minutes slower than it normally would giving you the extra time you desire.

Mike
Alumilite
800 447-9344

Mike,

Is the "Open time" the same as the "Set time"? I only ask 'cause the faq on the Alumilite website states to cool the B side:

Q: Can the set time be increased?
A: Yes! To get an additional 30 - 60 seconds, cool the 'B' side of Alumilite in the refrigerator for 3-5 hours. When you cool the resin it is important to remember to pour into a warm mold for proper curing.
 
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Originally posted by Alumilite

<b>Snip</b>

I know I have used oil base paints successfully in the past but acrylics offer so many more color options (pearl, metallics, etc.) and typically are more readily available in smaller quantities. That was my line of thinking and why I asked the gal here and why I tested the acrylics this morning. I had no idea they were in fact water base. But from these test results, some may have a much lower and acceptable level of water where they may not affect the Clear resin. It may be worth doing a small test with the paints you wish to use to see if they foam or whether or not they would in fact work for you.

Mike
Alumilite
800 447-9344

Mike,

Some time back I believe I read in the Forum on the Alumilite page that one could use Universal Colorants that are available at most "Paint Stores" like Benjamen Moore, Sherwin-Williams, ect. Is this correct? I tried to go to the forums on Alumilite to double-check, but the page call returns a "404 page not found" error message.
 

Alumilite

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Glass Scratcher,

Yes, it is true that you can and should put the "B" side in the fridge for most of our systems, just not particularly the clear because the B side of the Clear starts out thicker than the A side. The other reason is because the iso ("B" side) is water clear is a little more sensitive than standard isos we use in opaque systems. That's why I suggested the Clear A side in the fridge. Realistically, many people put both in the fridge and it is alright. It just slows the system down that much more. Just don't store them in the fridge long term as I'm honestly not sure how it may affect the iso.

Oil base additives are what we have always recommended as far as adding color if you are not using a polyol base dye (like we sell) and typically never over 5% by weight. These are both rules of thumb and we always recommend testing before mixing large batches or pours.

We had some major problems with holes in the forum and had to take it down. We are looking at another one but don't see it returning anytime soon.

Mike
Alumilite
800 447-9344
 
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