Wanting to enter the stabilizing world then casting worthless wood

[endacoz]

I've ordered some great double stabilized and then resin casted woods from 2 different membershere, Great products! I'd like to make them myself. I also come across woods I use that I'd like to stabilize, especially woods I turn into rings (bangle guy cores). So, let's just stay with getting up and running with stabilizing first.

I've read through the library and youtube videos and the forum. I was thinking of going the cheapest route, HF pump and making my own chamber. ... but, it appears I have enough money in my PayPal account to do this and time is limited. I'd like setup the right way (long term) instead of just the cheapest way.

I want to start with stabilizing woods before I get into casting the stabilized woods.

Few questions.

1. Stabilizing: I live in Minnesota, my shop is heated but only when I want to be out there for a decent amount of time. Does cold weather effect 1. The actual process of vacuuming? 2 Im assuming I should bring any resin / cactus juice in the house to avoid damaging itfrom the cold like I do with tape and glues and finishes.


Now time for some noobie questions.

When I bought worthless wood that was double stabilized+casted I am assuming they stabilized it first it and then casted the resin in?
I'm guessing stabilizing resin does not fill big holes and voids, just pores and small stuff? What size hole (largest) will casting resin fill our files that depend on the resin and the cooking?


I'm leaning towards a turntex vacuum chamber, but not really wanting to wait 3 weeks. It would also be cool to order a starter kit with everything, chamber, pump resin etc all at once, but this might not be possible.

Turntex, doesn't sell a complete starter kit it appears, juice chamber and vacuum. ..

These guys do chefwarekits, woodcraft, woodturningz, and more.....


Suggestions? Comments? Thoughts for me?

 

[MesquiteMan]

See my note in red below:

I've ordered some great double stabilized and then resin casted woods from 2 different membershere, Great products! I'd like to make them myself. I also come across woods I use that I'd like to stabilize, especially woods I turn into rings (bangle guy cores). So, let's just stay with getting up and running with stabilizing first.

I've read through the library and youtube videos and the forum. I was thinking of going the cheapest route, HF pump and making my own chamber. ... but, it appears I have enough money in my PayPal account to do this and time is limited. I'd like setup the right way (long term) instead of just the cheapest way.

I want to start with stabilizing woods before I get into casting the stabilized woods.

Few questions.

1. Stabilizing: I live in Minnesota, my shop is heated but only when I want to be out there for a decent amount of time. Does cold weather effect 1. The actual process of vacuuming? 2 Im assuming I should bring any resin / cactus juice in the house to avoid damaging itfrom the cold like I do with tape and glues and finishes.

The cold will not hurt the Cactus Juice or the vacuum process. As a matter of fact, Cactus Juice is best stored in a cold refrigerator and freezing will not hurt it. Would want to warm it up before using it though since most resins will get thicker as they get colder.


Now time for some noobie questions.

When I bought worthless wood that was double stabilized+casted I am assuming they stabilized it first it and then casted the resin in?
I'm guessing stabilizing resin does not fill big holes and voids, just pores and small stuff? What size hole (largest) will casting resin fill our files that depend on the resin and the cooking?

Stabilizing resin does not fill voids. It will fill small cracks and holes but not much more. I prefer stabilizing first so the wood is sealed and the colored casting resin does not get pushed into the wood, blurring the lines between the wood and resin. Some cast and then stabilize.


I'm leaning towards a turntex vacuum chamber, but not really wanting to wait 3 weeks. It would also be cool to order a starter kit with everything, chamber, pump resin etc all at once, but this might not be possible.

Turntex, doesn't sell a complete starter kit it appears, juice chamber and vacuum. ..

I can't get good pricing on anything but cheap China pumps and I really don't want to be on the hook for warranty on those pumps. I always recommend a Robinair 15310 for those who are on a tight budget. It is still a China made pump but at least it is made by a company that is known for vacuum pumps. You can get one on Amazon.com for $110 +/- delivered. I could sell pumps too but the ones I would want to sell would be more expensive than you buying it from somewhere else since I can't get any better pricing and I would have to mark it up.

These guys do chefwarekits, woodcraft, woodturningz, and more.....

No comment on this one.


Suggestions? Comments? Thoughts for me?

 

[healeydays]

Hi Ethan,

You're right thinking about doing it the right way instead of the quick and dirty way. Spend a little bit more and get the better product. Also, I wouldn't let a couple weeks one way or the other be your guide as this is a long term investment. And if it's only a couple weeks, the wait isn't all that bad.

I agree with Curtis that you don't want to cheap out on a pump. You might want to look on Craigslist as that's where I have picked up pumps in the past. Here is one in your area that you might be able to get reasonably once you talk to the person: Vacuum Pump, Fisher Scientific or this one http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/tls/5233070774.html


As for Curtis, he is a wealth of knowledge and you could do no wrong building a relationship with him. He could write the book on stabilizing.

Mike B

 

[jlnel]

Let me hijack a little, may help op in pump decision..

I'm about to do the same as op and I have bought a couple gallons of juice a while back and chambers, I have a pump but need to get going and set it all up. My question is, is an oil less pump better than an oil filled one??

Not sure what I have for a pump but it will use oil and I'd like to know pro/cons to the two if any.

Thanks.

 

[MesquiteMan]

An oil filled pump will produce a deeper vacuum than an oil less one. For stabilizing, the deeper the vacuum, the more air you remove. The more air you remove, the more resin you get back into the wood.

 

[Skewer]

Having made a chamber myself, i think the turntex chambers are a great value...even with a three week wait. I spent some time hunting for the right parts to hook everything up, and really didn't save as much money doing it myself as i thought i would.

 

[Skie_M]

An oil filled pump will produce a deeper vacuum than an oil less one. For stabilizing, the deeper the vacuum, the more air you remove. The more air you remove, the more resin you get back into the wood.

Further info on oilless vs oiled pumps.


An oilless pump is called a "maintenance free" style. There's no oil you have to change every now and then so that the pump runs properly, and no condensate to filter from that oil. You DO still need to empty your air tanks to remove condensate that builds up in there (for your air pressure hoses that power your air tools). If you allow water to build up in your pressure tank, it WILL rust and you could have an air leak someday, or worse, your tank could rupture. I'm not sure if a vacuum pump has similar issues, but I'm sure a lot of us have air tanks laying about. The other issue with water building up in your pressure tank is ... you'll have less available air volume to use if water is taking up that space.

 

[MesquiteMan]

Skie,

You may be confusing the different types of ways to create a vacuum. There are pumps and then there are vacuum generators. A vacuum generator uses an air compressor as you mention. In vacuum pumps, there are oil and oiless pumps. Typically with oil pumps, they are rotary vane pumps where a typical oilless is a diaphragm or oiless rotary vane pump. Both are self contained and have electric motors. Gast vacuum pumps used by many turners for vacuum chucking are almost always oiless rotary vane pumps. Another brand of oiless pump is a Thomas and they are typically a diaphragm pump. A typical oiless vacuum pump will produce a 25-26" Hg (83.6- 89.9%) vacuum at sea level. A vacuum generator (using the air compressor) will typically produce a 28"+ (93.6%) vacuum. A rotary vane, oil filled vacuum pump will typically produce a 100 micron or less vacuum which is a 29.916" (99.98%) or better vac.

There are other types of oil filled and oil less vacuum pumps but these are the most common.

 

[Skie_M]

Yes, my info was more on the side of an air pressure pump rather than a vacuum pump, but it's still good stuff to know and remember.

I've seen ruptured air tanks ... they are not fun to be around.

 

[Sabaharr]

Well I have a different opinion on the chamber, but that's what this is all about isn't it? Getting different views. Anyway I made my chamber cheaply and very effective. With a T fitting, hose fitting, and release valve from the air pump accessories at Harbor Freight I drilled a 3/8 piece of Plexiglas and installed that apparatus. I set it on top of a cylindrical acrylic vase I got at Bed, Bath, and Beyond. The whole setup cost me $22 and it will do 14 of the 3/4" blanks at a time standing up. It is even tall enough to do 2 layers at a time but the foam would get too high to use it that way. I put a rubber gasket on the lid to set the seal. I degas my casting resin in it too. Later I added a gauge and being at sea level it buries the needle at full vacuum. Some of the wood I have stabilized actually tripled in weight. I can do more with my $22 chamber than some of them costing hundreds of dollars. Send me an email address by PM and I will send you a video of it being used and you can decide for yourself. (That goes for anyone that's curious) And by the way, Cactus Juice is the way to go. Curtis is the greatest at customer service and will gladly help you with anything you need to know about using it.

 

[spitfire]

Is it absolutely essential to stabilize prior to casting worthless wood blanks?

 

[Skie_M]

Is it absolutely essential to stabilize prior to casting worthless wood blanks?

No, but it's a good idea if you're not using absolutely rock solid chunks of wood.

If it's just hunks of hardwood, you're good to go, but if it's pithy or spalted or falling apart in any way .... if it's a fairly soft wood or tends to splinter, crack, or fall apart like compressed powder ... stabilize it!

 

[MesquiteMan]

Is it absolutely essential to stabilize prior to casting worthless wood blanks?

No, it is not absolutely essential. If the wood is hard and of the type that does not need to be stabilized, then no, IMO. If the wood is hard but porous, stabilizing will help keep the colored resin for being pushed into the wood blurring the delineation between the wood and resin which looks bad IMO.

 

[endacoz]

I am now stabilizing

I received the cactus juice and the lid for my pickle jar from Curtis at turn text.com this week.


I have never been so excited to stare at a pickle jar before. I do love pickles though! Here are some pictures of my setup again thank you Curtis!

I am stabilizing on my first run lilac, black cherry, oak, box elder, spalted maple, and Buckeye. The Buckeye actually has the seam ripper tube already glued through it. Will find out if that affects it.

 

[MesquiteMan]

Looking good, Ethan!

 

[robutacion]

Hi Ethan,

Congrats on your decision to stabilize and cast blanks yourself, for someone like me that sell those products finished, one would think that, I would be trying to discourage you instead of encourage you but, the fact is that, there is lost of self satisfaction in being able to stabilize and cast your own blanks, and if decided to start selling some latter on, that is OK too, no issues with me.

I do however, have a few opinions and or suggestions when it come to both of those 2 types of blanks preparations, Curtis as my Cactus Juice supplier and the local resin supplier would testify on the volume I use of these 2 types of resins and as a result, I have learn a few things in the way that, I'm more than willing to share with anyone.

If the size and number of blanks you need to stabilize will fit in one of Curtis chambers, go no further however, if you need a bigger vacuum chamber, you can use a strong stainless cooking pot, make a 3/4" to 1" acrylic lid, a good gasket, add all the accessories and you are on your way.

As for the pumps, I already worn out one, the second pump is going strong but, I already have a third one that have one of the things missing in all the others and that is electric non-return valve, and that through time, has cause me considerable lost money and materials (wood) from being contaminated with the pump oil or, the resin going into the pump.

This is more crucial in larger volume vacuum pots due to the vacuum capacity and strength but, smaller chambers can have identical issues and those are created by 2 things, if the power goes off when in full vacuum, the vacuum sucks the oil out of the pump, I have this happening so many times that, has become a big issue for me because I stabilize about 8 to 12 litres of volume in a 16 litre pot, I reach 29Hg most times, a full pot carries about 60 to 80 pen blanks, pump oil going into it, is the last thing you need/want.

The other situation can happen in reverse, there is, you fill the vacuum chamber too much and you don't look up for the foaming raising very rapidly as the air get sucked out, in this case, the juice is sucked inside the pump, and your oil will be not only contaminated but, you have to remove the oil sump and clean the mess from the inside, if left on for some time, it becomes a thick gooey and later sets hard in the bottom of the sump, possibly clogging the breathing and inlet small holes on the pump , itself.

So, the idea of a filter somewhere between the pump and the pot are a good idea but, not enough, if the filter gets full of liquid, either resin or oil the damage is identical maybe not as much but, you still have contaminated stuff to deal with.

Some of these non-return valves are extremely expensive and I had look enough to know that, the cheapest one was costing double or more than the pump cost that I buy for about AU$200.00

I have been very careful to prevent these issues and even then, I had them happening far more times than I need/wish so, the idea to look for a fairly inexpensive pump (Chinese made, off-course) but with one of these electric valves, was the solution I opted for.

These are the pumps I'm talking about, they are the same power and everything else as my other ones the only difference is the non-return valve and the gauge that, I don't really need (not the correct of) http://http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-2-STAGE-5-CFM-REFRIGERATION-VACUUM-PUMP-3-VACUUM-GAUGE-SELONOID-VALVE-/261967930452?hash=item3cfe816454:g:yhgAAOxyFIFR8w5M

In the issue of stabilizing wood, one item that you need and that, does a lot more than cook/set the resin hard is an oven with sufficient space to dry all your woods before you put them in the vacuum pot. Do not believe that, the dry wood you have is dry, any sort of moisture and Cactus Juice, don't mix and while they don't fight (visibly) the blanks will never be fully stabilized if the wood has any humidity in it so, make it a habit to put the wood in the oven for 12, 24 or even 36 hours, before you stabilize it, and the important thing here is that, you need to have everything ready for the wood to go in, the only way to gurantee the wood is not going to suck any atmospheric moisture, is to leave the wood in the oven until is just warm, not hot, you just feel some heat in the wood but not too much, you them submerse the wood into the resin and can either start the pump straight-away or, make sure the whole wood is submersed with at least 1" of juice over the wood and leave it in the vacuum pot for some time (1 hour or so, or any time you really need, if necessary, a few days would harm anything)...!

I will leave the casting subject for when you are ready, this post is already long enough, sorry...!

Cheers
George

 

[MesquiteMan]

Hi Ethan,
If the size and number of blanks you need to stabilize will fit in one of Curtis chambers, go no further however, if you need a bigger vacuum chamber, you can use a strong stainless cooking pot, make a 3/4" to 1" acrylic lid, a good gasket, add all the accessories and you are on your way.

Cheers
George

George, I build vacuum chambers that can do 210-240 standard pen blanks at one time! As a matter of fact, I just built two this past week for a commercial customer for just this purpose. Think tall rather than wide. These chambers are 6" diameter and 48" tall. Now granted, if you want to do a blank larger than will fit in a 6" diameter chamber, it obviously will not work.

 

[robutacion]

Hi Ethan,
If the size and number of blanks you need to stabilize will fit in one of Curtis chambers, go no further however, if you need a bigger vacuum chamber, you can use a strong stainless cooking pot, make a 3/4" to 1" acrylic lid, a good gasket, add all the accessories and you are on your way.

Cheers
George

George, I build vacuum chambers that can do 210-240 standard pen blanks at one time! As a matter of fact, I just built two this past week for a commercial customer for just this purpose. Think tall rather than wide. These chambers are 6" diameter and 48" tall. Now granted, if you want to do a blank larger than will fit in a 6" diameter chamber, it obviously will not work.

Hi Curtis,

My apologies, I wasn't aware you make them that big/tall, I haven't looked on your chambers section for some time so, I'm obviously outdated in my info.

I suppose, if only pen and knife blanks are to be stabilised or at least no wider than 6" round or 4"1/2 approx, any of your 6" chambers are sufficient however, and as you mentioned, wider than that and the chambers won't be big enough and that was what I meant however, the issue in discussion is pen blanks therefore, your chambers are more than suitable, sorry...!

Talking about Juice, I just remembered, I need to order some more...!

Cheers
George

 

[endacoz]

Hi Ethan,

Congrats on your decision to stabilize and cast blanks yourself, for someone like me that sell those products finished, one would think that, I would be trying to discourage you instead of encourage you but, the fact is that, there is lost of self satisfaction in being able to stabilize and cast your own blanks, and if decided to start selling some latter on, that is OK too, no issues with me.

I do however, have a few opinions and or suggestions when it come to both of those 2 types of blanks preparations, Curtis as my Cactus Juice supplier and the local resin supplier would testify on the volume I use of these 2 types of resins and as a result, I have learn a few things in the way that, I'm more than willing to share with anyone.

If the size and number of blanks you need to stabilize will fit in one of Curtis chambers, go no further however, if you need a bigger vacuum chamber, you can use a strong stainless cooking pot, make a 3/4" to 1" acrylic lid, a good gasket, add all the accessories and you are on your way.

As for the pumps, I already worn out one, the second pump is going strong but, I already have a third one that have one of the things missing in all the others and that is electric non-return valve, and that through time, has cause me considerable lost money and materials (wood) from being contaminated with the pump oil or, the resin going into the pump.


I will leave the casting subject for when you are ready, this post is already long enough, sorry...!

Cheers
George

George, I am going back and re-reading this post as I am getting ready to stabalize bulr caps for some of my first castings! I didn't realize it until re-reading this that last Spring / Summer You custom stabilized and casted 6 or 8 different boards for me in various colors! These are my favorite to turn and are what inspired me to get into this myself. (You are one of the people I mention in the initial post.) Great woods, and that olive smells beautiful. A few picture below of your beautiful boards!

I wanted to thank you for all the info you put into this post.

Curtis - I want to thank you as well for talking to me on the phone and helping set up a custom lid for my pickle jar!


Few questions. I know that it is said that the cactus juice will stay "better" when stored in cold conditions.

1. Does cold weather effect the actual vacuuming? I only like to heat my shop when I know I'll be out there for a good chunk of time. If my shop is around 28-32 (Fahrenheit) would that effect or lessen the quality of my vacuuming? (Can I stabilize without the shop heat on?) If not what is a recommended temp?

2. What about casting Alumilite? I have bought 2 gallons of it and have been storing it in the house. I remember reading that at least part b needs to be warm. I also read that warming the molds up before pouring and then pressurizing can help? Does my shop need to be heated when I cast? If so what is a recommended temp?

 

[endacoz]

Pictures of Goerge's Wood I bought

Also, here is a video I put on Youtube on a seam ripper I made to be the grand prize in my facebook giveaway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOEXbtI_hBU


Earlier this month I finished more of your blanks George and they are on my FB page.

facebook.com/cookcrafted

 

[Rockytime]

I received the cactus juice and the lid for my pickle jar from Curtis at turn text.com this week.


I have never been so excited to stare at a pickle jar before. I do love pickles though! Here are some pictures of my setup again thank you Curtis!

I am stabilizing on my first run lilac, black cherry, oak, box elder, spalted maple, and Buckeye. The Buckeye actually has the seam ripper tube already glued through it. Will find out if that affects it.

Curtis's website does not show any vacuum chambers. After contacting him some time ago he said he no longer makes the square Plexiglas chamber. He is currently on vacation so I can't contact him. My question is did he supply the pickle jar and customized lid? it is exactly what I am looking for. Thanks for the the neat photos.

 

[MesquiteMan]

My website does indeed have vacuum chambers. Click on the Cactus Juice Stabilizing Solutions entry on the home page and you will see them.

 

[MesquiteMan]

Cold weather does not affect stabilizing to any significant degree. The resin may be a little thicker so you may need to soak a little longer or bring the chamber inside for the soak but other than that, no issues.

 

[budnder]

My first two attempts...

Just thought I'd share my journey down this path...

I decided to use sched 40 PVC for my chamber and did a couple of different sizes. I simply capped the bottom and left the top open. I use the same lid for all the chambers, which is 1/2" piece of acrylic with a single center hole for a "self tapped" fitting. For a gasket, I made the gaskets for each with a tube of 100% silicone. The vacuum pump is the three stage from Harbor Freight.

Making the gaskets turned out to be the trickiest part because it needs to be pretty flat. I thought I would just put some mold release on piece of glass and lay that on a wet bead of silicone on the PVC and let it sit overnight. Long story short... the silicone stuck to everything I tried. I finally hit upon something that worked really well which was laying out a piece of tin foil on a flat surface and then waxing it, then inverting the chamber onto the foil. The waxed foil worked like a charm. Let it sit overnight and the next day you can peel it right off.

My first attempt was with an ounce of green Alumilite dye in a quart of Cactus Juice. The wood was dry, but not "overnight in the oven" dry and it didn't penetrate like I had hoped. Plus I didn't really like the green color. So I added some blue (maybe a quarter of an ounce) to what was left (80% of a quart) and I liked that color much better. It was weird how just a little bit of blue had a big impact... maybe there was something wrong with the green dye... And For the second batch I over-nighted the wood at 200 degrees, then into the Cactus Juice and Vacuum it went after it had cooled. Much better take up of the die into the second batch, so I'm sold on over-nighting in the toaster oven for next time.

I picked a couple of pieces of the (first batch) green stabilized wood and a couple of pieces of the blue (second batch) and cast it in some bronze and yellow colored Alumilite Water Clear.

I'll attach a pic of the chamber, the blanks, and how one of the green batch turned out as well as one of the blue batch (my personal favorite).

 

[Nick Rocco]

I have been doing some research as well to begin stabilizing my own wood. (This thread has been very helpful. I ran across a Glass Vac vacuum chamber on bestvaluevacs.com They refer to using a cold trap to prevent the cactus juice from seizing the vacuum pump. This is essentially a second pot filled with dry ice to cool the air coming out of the vacuum chamber (I think). I have not seen anyone on the forum mention a cold trap. I also did not see anything on Curtis' web site about a cod trap.

You can check out the reference here:
Glass Vac 1 Gallon Tall Stainless Steel Chamber - Wood Working

Can anyone shed any light on the cold trap? Is it necessary?

 

[Rockytime]

My website does indeed have vacuum chambers. Click on the Cactus Juice Stabilizing Solutions entry on the home page and you will see them.

Thanks. I just ordered.

 

[endacoz]

My website does indeed have vacuum chambers. Click on the Cactus Juice Stabilizing Solutions entry on the home page and you will see them.

Thanks. I just ordered.

I'm glad we chatted Rocky
and I'm glad you made an order with Curtis! You will be happy

 

[MesquiteMan]

Can anyone shed any light on the cold trap? Is it necessary?

No, a cold trap is NOT necessary if you follow the best practices for stabilizing. Contrary to what has been written in the link you provided, Cactus Juice does not have anything in it to be trapped by the cold trap. It is made to be used in a vacuum process and does not boil under full vacuum unless the temperature of the resin is above 93° F at full vacuum. Of course this is outside the working temp range of the resin to begin with. What is happening is so many folks are jumping into stabilizing without proper information and they are trying to stabilize wood with moisture still in it. That moisture boils off under full vacuum along with oils and resins in the wood and then condenses in the pump and ruins cheap pumps. If the wood is properly dried as outlined in my directions, you will not have a problem unless you suck resin into your pump. This can be prevented with a lot cheaper options including just paying attention to what you are doing. A cold trap does not hurt anything, of course, but it is an unnecessary expense. I have been working with Cactus Juice longer than anyone out there and I am still on my original pump and have never done anything to it other than change the oil.