Stablize blanks

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Tim K

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I've been checking out Turn Tex, cactus juice and the chambers he makes. If anyone has any experience with this system could you share your thoughts please? http://www.turntex.com/
Thanks!
 
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Justturnin

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If you have the funds DO IT. I love my system. I did 10 blanks yesterday that started at 417gr and when they came out they weighed 701gr. That is resin in the wood making it stronger.
 

Tim K

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I have read through the web site, but in your experience what is the process from beginning to end? Also what size vacuum pump do you use?

Thanks
 

KenV

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Tim -- there are two measures of Vacuum pumps -- thru put pump capacity and the ability to approach a perfect vacuum. If you have read the webpage, you should have noted that the ability to pull about 28 inches of mercury is very important. That takes the diaphram pumps out of the prime performance range. The more expensive ones pull a higher number of inches of vacuum.

Curtis suggests several good pumps. You can get rebuilts from

VeneerSupplies.com - Search Results for "vacuum pump"

Watch the inches of mercury --

For vacuum chucking on a lathe you can use a much lower inches of mercury.
 
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jd99

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I agree with Chris, If you can afford it go with it, I made my own chamber and I will tell you it's a lot of work, his chambers are priced to just cover what it takes to make one, if he charged labor they would be a lot more...

I still get my Juice from TurnTex, even though I made my own chamber.

I got a cheap vacuum pump off of amazon, and it works fine I've done several runs with it, ya just have to change the oil regularly.

Vacuum Pump Rotary Vane 2.3 CFM 1/4 Hp
 

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Tim K

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Thanks for the info that's great.! Looks like I have a couple of options. Also once the wood is removed from the chamber how long must it be placed and "baked" in the toaster? Or is there another process?
 

Monty

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Thanks for the info that's great.! Looks like I have a couple of options. Also once the wood is removed from the chamber how long must it be placed and "baked" in the toaster? Or is there another process?
It needs to bake 1 hour at about 200*. Less than that and it won't harden, more and the juice will run out of the wood before it hardens.
 

MesquiteMan

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One hour on the baking is just a rough estimate. You have to get the core temperature of the wood to 200° F for 6-8 minutes for proper polymerization. Thick wood or a lot of wood will take longer to get to that temp. The best practice is to put the wood in the oven and let it bake for an hour. Then, with gloves on, take the wood out and pull back the foil. If you see any liquid, wrap them back up IMMEDIATELY and put them back in. If you let them cool down and then remove the foil and find the liquid, you have just ruined the blanks. Once they cool down, they will not polymerize properly the second time around no matter how long you leave them in the oven. It is better to err on the side of caution and leave them in longer. Longer will not hurt anything at all. I usually leave mine in the oven for a couple of hours and many times, forget and leave them in overnight.
 

MesquiteMan

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For the size of vacuum pump, you want to be looking at how much vacuum it is capable of generating. Most rotary vane (oil filled) pumps will pull 29" Hg at sea level. This is a really good, deep vacuum for stabilizing. Don't worry about the CFM rating of the pump for stabilizing. Higher CFM rated pumps will not generate a vacuum, it will just get you there quicker. However, the chambers we use are so small in regards to the volume of air in them, that the difference in time is seconds. Then you also run into the limitation of how much CFM the hose itself can carry and with the size hose typically used, anything over 3-4 CFM at the pump is doing nothing at all for you.
 

Rifleman1776

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Using a paint pot for the vacuum chamber and a Gast vane pump I get 23 inches of pull. I have adjustment knobs and can get more but this works and I see no reason to mess with success.
I use plexiglas dissolved in Acetone as my solution. No heating, baking or other stuff and nonsense to cure. I put on a pan and let gas off in the air. On nice days I set outside.
Personally, I see no point in purchasing solutions although there is an expense in the plexi and Acetone.
 

Jim Burr

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Curtis has a great link on his site about using a refrigerator compressor as a vaccum pump. $40 I was in business, it pulls 28mmhg easy. $2 in other parts and it was good to go. My wife found a toaster oven at Goodwill for $4, never used. I posted a picture about a week ago in here somewhere.
You will not be sorry!...Opps!:redface: I guess I posted on this already:redface::eek:. Getting more coffee...
 
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Sylvanite

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I started out with Curtis' small chamber, but upgraded to the large one. I already had an old vacuum pump (oregon scientific) that I picked up for $50.00 used. In around 30 seconds, it will pull a good enough vacuum that the guage reads well over 30 HgIn (but it starts at about 2 so i figure I'm getting a good 28, maybe 29).

I'm curing in my powder-coat oven, which gives much more even and accurate temperatures than a toaster oven can. The first time, I wrapped in aluminum foil like Curtis recommends, but some resin leaked out and dripped down onto the bottom of the oven and into the heating element -- making a terrible mess. Since then, I just lay the blanks on raised mesh over an old cookie sheet to catch the excess resin. When it builds up too deep, I flex the sheet and break the resin out. Because they're not wrapped, the blanks come out a bit toasted looking on the surface, but without a lot of resin clinging. They square up nicely on the table saw.

Once stabilized with Cactus Juice, the blanks are solid to the core and hard. They turn without chipping or tear-out, but they're more like tru-stone than acrylic.

I hope that helps,
Eric
 

Mlsflt

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I have been using Cactus Juice now for awhile, gone through several gallons of it. Its good stuff, I had some very punky, brittle spalted maple that would have been going in the firewood bin had it not been for Cactus Juice. The maple was hard as a rock and turned very well with no tear out.
I use a harbor freight paint pot with a lexan top I made, and I am using rubber shelf liner I picked up at Lowes as my gasket. That said, I have one of the chambers Curtis makes on order as it will be much easier to use for knife scales and pen blanks. I will still use my paint pot for large items.
As far as vacuum pumps go, Curtis has several recommended that are very nice and if you have the time to hunt a used one or wait for one to go up for auction on Ebay, you can save a bunch of money.
I purchased a 2 stage 3cfm Vacuum pump from harbor freight and it has functioned flawlessly for 100+ hours of actual use, just needed to change/fill oil from time to time to keep the optimum level.
I ordered a good vac gauge online and it actually works properly and I pull 28.75hg vacuum with no problem at 993ft elevation. The max I should be able to pull is 28.9 since my gauge doesnt show tenths its a rough guess im pulling 28.75, could actually be higher. I keep the wood submerged, run vac until I see very few bubbles floating up then I shut off the pump and allow the pressure to drop gradually on its own. If I'm not in a hurry I leave the wood to soak awhile. I place the blanks on a rack on a pan in my kitchen oven and bake 1-1.5 hours at 200 degrees, remove and allow to cool, then turn. The smell from the Cactus Juice cooking off isnt too bad, I run the exhaust fan above the stove and it keeps it minimal. When finished I clean the oven with a nice smelling cleaner to keep her highness happy.
Also, I send her out shopping for the day with friends and buy their Dinner, this gives me lots of time to do my thing, get everything cleaned up and all the fumes as minimal as they are, have time to disapate, ha! :biggrin:
Hope my .25 cent helps didnt mean to write a novel!
__________________________________________

Steve
Novel Pens - Home
 

Rifleman1776

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The comments here indicate satisfaction with the Cactus Juice solution.
That's fine. My comments were not meant to be disparaging.
A couple years ago I was one who tested and reviewed a stabilizing solution that the makers were considering bringing to market. I now forget the name, no matter.
It worked but the heat curing put an odor into the house remiscent of oranges. At first it wasn't unpleasant but became nauseating after a while. And, the retail price was, IMHO, excessive. That experience turned me off of commercial stable solutions.
The use of plexi dissolved in Acetone has proven successful and highly satisfactory for me.
 

Mlsflt

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I dont think your comment was disparaging Frank, actually, acetone and lexan sound like an excellent alternative. I for one will definitely remember that can be done in case I have something I need to stabilize and I'm out of Cactus Juice, I always have acetone around the shop and plenty of scrap lexan. What ratio of lexan to acetone do you use to get good results, if you don't mind sharing?

Steve
 

ed4copies

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Hey Frank!!!!

You prefer the smell of acetone to the smell of oranges???????????:eek::eek::eek:

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:Weird!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
 

MesquiteMan

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I too did not see Frank's comments as disparaging. There are a number of different way to stabilize wood but to get the most solids into the wood, a heat cured professional stabilizing resin can't be beat. Anything that requires something to dry has carriers or solvents that have to flash off (evaporate). These solvents or carriers compromise a large percentage of the volume of the material that you are putting into the wood. Once those solvents/carriers have evaporated, their volume is gone.

Take Minwax Wood Hardener for example (which is basically acetone and plexiglass)...it is 72% acetone and 78% volatile. That means than 78% of the volume of Minwax WH will evaporate. If you take an open container of MWH and fill it 100% full and leave it on your bench top until it "dries" the container will be no more than 22% full at the end. The same applies with the wood we are impregnating. If you are able to fill the space in the wood 100% with MWH, once it dries, it will be no more than 22% filled, leaving a lot of empty space instead of filled which was the objective to begin with!

A professional heat cured stabilizing resin, at least the one I have experience with, does not have solvents or carriers. It converts to a solid at a rate of 99.9% (never speak in absolutes!). I have done testing where I took a shot glass of stabilzing resin and weighed it as a liquid. It weighed exactly 18.3 grams. After curing in the oven and cooling down, it still weighed 18.3 grams and had not lost any volume.

The other thing to consider is flammability. If using a solvent based system such as MWH under vacuum, you are boiling off the acetone and pumping it through your vacuum pump. It is being exhausted into your shop as a very flammable gas, not to mention damaging your seals and hoses.
 
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MesquiteMan

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I dont think your comment was disparaging Frank, actually, acetone and lexan sound like an excellent alternative. I for one will definitely remember that can be done in case I have something I need to stabilize and I'm out of Cactus Juice, I always have acetone around the shop and plenty of scrap lexan. What ratio of lexan to acetone do you use to get good results, if you don't mind sharing?

Steve

I am not Frank (obviously) but I have done a LOT of experimenting with plexiglas and acetone in the past. I used to use that method but my results were less than satisfactory. I would disolve plexi and thin it until I had a medium thin syrup consistency. That seemed to give the best penetration. It did do a little for the wood but nothing like what I get now.
 

Rifleman1776

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I dont think your comment was disparaging Frank, actually, acetone and lexan sound like an excellent alternative. I for one will definitely remember that can be done in case I have something I need to stabilize and I'm out of Cactus Juice, I always have acetone around the shop and plenty of scrap lexan. What ratio of lexan to acetone do you use to get good results, if you don't mind sharing?

Steve

I use the KISS method to make my solution.
I simply add plexi to the Acetone until no more will dissolve. I'll end up with a small glob at the bottom of the pot not fully dissolved.
I have stabled various woods and some pieces barely large enough to fit in the pot. Full penetration is not a problem with most woods.
Some woods aren't worth even trying. e.g. ironwood, Osage Orange and most of the very dense South American woods. But, they don't need stabilizing to start with.
Fortunately, the most popular woods (maple, Box Elder, Walnut and almost anything spalted to nearly the point of being rotten) take stable very nicely with full penetration.
I'm not an expert on this subject. I picked up most of my knowledge here and have stuck with what works for me.
 

Tim K

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great dicussion on the subject! thanks for all there comments. This will help in my decision making process. I have some wood that needs to be stabilized so I'll be doing something soon! sorry I havent replied but I've been out of town working and have to leave again after the holiday, gotta pay the bills......
 

penhead

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I purchased one of Curtis's kits including a jug of Cactus juice, and bought a pump on sale from HF. I have not stabilized a large amount of pen blanks, but the one's that i have done i added a little coloring to the juice in the tank. When the blanks were done the color was soaked in clear to the core of the blanks, and the blanks solid.

IMHO, this is a simple, fairly low cost method of stabilizing your punky pen blanks that works great...or larger punky blanks if you can devise a method of oveniz'ing them.
 

Mlsflt

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Got my kit in from Curtis today and wow! its nice, very well made! I have already used it to stabilize 12 pen blanks and I must say it is a VAST improvement over the setup I was using.
I had been using my pressure pot with a homemade lexan lid. It worked very well, but, the chamber I got from Curtis will get the majority of stabilizing I need to do. It gets to full vacuum almost instantly, with the optional valves and gauge already installed all I had to do was hook it up to my Vac. pump and flip the switch. Controled foaming easily with the valve and within an hour had the first 6 blanks saturated with no bubbles coming out.
It is compact, well made, light weight and a well thought out design. You can tell Curtis has been doing this for a long time and used his knowledge in creating this system.
Did I mention Customer service. If every business offered the service Curtis provides, a lot of headaches people have would never happen. Upon ordering, a standard shipping rate was applied and after the package was mailed Curtis immediately refunded the extra as he has done on every order I have placed with him in the past.
If you have the funds and I know times are tight, but if you have them and do much stabilizing, you will really enjoy this system. Im a fan and even though I just got it today, I have finished 2 batches of 6 so functionality is definitely a non-issue and with Curt's guarantee on the chamber I know any issue I have will be taken care of.
Feel free to shoot me a message if anyone has any questions, I will be more than happy to answer them!
______________________
Steve
Novelpens.com
 
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sbell111

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My random, drug-impaired thoughts on this subject:

  • MWH v. cactusjuice (and similar). The wood hardener does help make a punky piece of wood turnable. However, it takes quite a bit of time for the MWH to dry(?) sufficiently. Also, MWH will not fill small voids or fine cracks. It will tend to harden the material that you treat with it, but it will not 'transform' the material as a commercial product like cactus juice will.

    Blanks treated with cactus juice are basically ready to turn as soon as they come out of the oven (and have cooled off enough to handle). Cactus juice will fill small voids and fine cracks. The resulting blanks will be very hard and will turn consistently without too much worry about them 'blowing up' on the lathe..
  • When stabilizing under vacuum, you must either quickly release the vacuum from the chamber or isolate the pump from the vacuum chamber when you shut down the pump. Failure to do so will result in your pump oil being sucked into the vacuum chamber contaminating your stabilizing fluid. I'm embarrassed that I know this.
  • I use the smaller of the two harbor freight vacuum pumps for stabilizing. My pump has worked just fine for the last three years or so with only occasional oil changes. (I realize that I should change the oil more frequently, but I've been fairly lazy about that.)
 

wolftat

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The comments here indicate satisfaction with the Cactus Juice solution.
That's fine. My comments were not meant to be disparaging.
A couple years ago I was one who tested and reviewed a stabilizing solution that the makers were considering bringing to market. I now forget the name, no matter.
It worked but the heat curing put an odor into the house remiscent of oranges. At first it wasn't unpleasant but became nauseating after a while. And, the retail price was, IMHO, excessive. That experience turned me off of commercial stable solutions.
The use of plexi dissolved in Acetone has proven successful and highly satisfactory for me.
Frank, are you refering to the Ultraseal stabilizer? I had trouble getting that to function correctly. The Cactus Juice is different and works much better in my opinion. Its worth a try, I like it.
 

MesquiteMan

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  • When stabilizing under vacuum, you must either quickly release the vacuum from the chamber or isolate the pump from the vacuum chamber when you shut down the pump. Failure to do so will result in your pump oil being sucked into the vacuum chamber contaminating your stabilizing fluid. I'm embarrassed that I know this.
  • I use the smaller of the two harbor freight vacuum pumps for stabilizing. My pump has worked just fine for the last three years or so with only occasional oil changes. (I realize that I should change the oil more frequently, but I've been fairly lazy about that.)

When using a rotary vane oil filled pump, you should ALWAYS release the vacuum before turning off your pump. Turning it off under vacuum will cause premature wear on the pump and cause it to spit oil on the next start up. Also, the oil is there more for creating a seal than just as a lubricant. As the oil gets contaminated, you will start to loose vacuum. I typically only change mine once I start getting lower readings on the gauge.
 

BangleGuy

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As many have said before me, the TurnTex cactus juice and vacuum chamber is high quality stuff. I have been stabilizing for about 4 months and have run through about 2.5 gallons of resin. I have stabilized (or attempted to stabilize) about 30 different species of wood with some excellent, and some not so good results (depending on wood oils, density, etc).

I use the resin to stabilize my bangle blanks for dimensional stability and to prevent moisture absorption. At some point, I need to compile a percent weight gain by species chart. From what I know, it is pretty pointless to stabilize Blackwood, Bloodwood, Bocote, Cocobolo, Ebony, Ironwood, Mexican Kingwood and Snakewood. I am sure there are many more, but I should be taking better notes!

I have stabilized (or attempted to stabilize) all manner of wood, including wet wood (MC> 30%). My biggest failure? Mango Burl which had a 40% MC. I got it stabilized, and dried in 48 hours, but I could probably write a book on this adventure :)
 

Rifleman1776

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  • When stabilizing under vacuum, you must either quickly release the vacuum from the chamber or isolate the pump from the vacuum chamber when you shut down the pump. Failure to do so will result in your pump oil being sucked into the vacuum chamber contaminating your stabilizing fluid. I'm embarrassed that I know this.
  • I use the smaller of the two harbor freight vacuum pumps for stabilizing. My pump has worked just fine for the last three years or so with only occasional oil changes. (I realize that I should change the oil more frequently, but I've been fairly lazy about that.)

When using a rotary vane oil filled pump, you should ALWAYS release the vacuum before turning off your pump. Turning it off under vacuum will cause premature wear on the pump and cause it to spit oil on the next start up. Also, the oil is there more for creating a seal than just as a lubricant. As the oil gets contaminated, you will start to loose vacuum. I typically only change mine once I start getting lower readings on the gauge.



That's interesting. I have been using my Gast pump for several years now. I turn off then open pot. My oil reserve hasn't changed level or appearance. I guess it is time to take a close look at the pump for wear. As I said, my approach is not scientific. If it works, it works. But, I do maintain my tools and this is a good reminder to do some preventative maintenance on my expensive Gast vacuum pump.
 

MesquiteMan

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That's interesting. I have been using my Gast pump for several years now. I turn off then open pot. My oil reserve hasn't changed level or appearance. I guess it is time to take a close look at the pump for wear. As I said, my approach is not scientific. If it works, it works. But, I do maintain my tools and this is a good reminder to do some preventative maintenance on my expensive Gast vacuum pump.

Frank,

I think you are working with a different kind of pump. To my knowledge, Gast does not have the type of rotary vane, oil filled pump I am talking about. I just took a look at thier website and, from what I can see, their deepest vacuum rotary vane pump only pulls 26.5" Hg. The rotary vane pumps I am referring to are the type that are used in HVAC work and will pull 29"+. I have no experience with the type you are using.
 

Justturnin

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How I use 'da Juice

I typed this out a few days ago but I lost power due to a storm and lost it before I could post. I will try it one more time. Here is my process, start to finish on stabilizing blanks.

There are about 1000 ways to skin this cat but this is how I do it.

1. Cut my blanks 1"sq x 5.25 (Oversized so I can trim them down to 7/8")
2. Allow them to dry to EMC (equilibrium moisture content). If the blanks are wet I soak in DNA. The DNA will draw the moisture out of the blank and allow it to dry faster, remove from DNA and wrap in black&white newspaper. Stack them to the side and forget about them for a few weeks. After about two weeks remove them from the paper and stack them back up. From there once the blanks hit EMC I toss them in a Toaster over at about 175* for at least 24 hours to make sure they are bone dry.
3. Pull the blanks out and throw them in a ziploc (tip from Curtis) if the bag fogs they are not dry enough. If they do not fog it will minimize the ambient moisture they can reabsorb while cooling. Don't put a hot blank in the juice it will set up on you.
4. Stack in chamber Cover the blanks w/ Resin, I typically add about .75" over. If it sucks it down below the blank line release the vacuum and add a little more. You will get the feel for it.
5. Apply vacuum, watch it so it does not foam over into the lines. Pull the strongest vacuum you can. I use the cheap HF pump and it is ok but it does not pull as far down as it should. One day I will get a better pump.
6. Let the vacuum pump run until you have "Champagne" bubbles.
7. I have a valve at the female connector to my pump (my pump has a male coming off of it). I close it and remove the female connection from the vacuum pump while the pump is running, I them power off the pump.
8. I will let the vacuum hold for a bit until any bubbling stops then I will release the vacuum from the chamber.
9. If you would like you can let them sit about 30 mins and run it through the vacuum again, I have and do not really find a benefit in doing that.
10. Remove the blanks into a bowl to allow them to drain for about 30 mins.
11. Wrap them in foil as Curtis shows in the vids. Place them on a cookie sheet or something or the resin will get on the elements and smoke you out if it does not catch fire.
12. Cook at about 200 for at least 1 hour. Check them as Curtis said above, BE FAST. If there is liquid close it up and keep on cookin'
13. Once I see no liquid resin I kick the oven up to about 250 for about 10 mins to be sure. This will not hurt anything and it makes me feel better whether it helps or not.
14. Pull them out and clean them up and happy turnin. One thing you will notice is the blanks do not put off curlies anymore and are just plain dusty. Small price to pay for super stable blanks.


Final note. I want to reemphasize the importance of your blanks being dry. Every drop of moisture in your blank is a drop of resin that cannot go into the blank. Also, as you cook the blanks that drop of moisture is going to turn into steam and cook out. When it cooks out that steam will push resin out of the blank. Ever pull your blanks out and there is just a thick nasty crust all over? That is likely because they were still too wet. You will almost always have some crust but it should not be thick and cover the blank all the way around.

Much of this advise is what Curtis and others have shared and some that I learned on my own.

Here is a pic of some Box Elder Burl I just did. These are straight out of the foil. You can see a little crust but not a lot. These were dry when they went in the juice. I have done some and they came out and I could not even see the wood there was so much crust.

2012-07-19%252013.43.26-1.jpg


Hope this helps.
 
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Rifleman1776

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That's interesting. I have been using my Gast pump for several years now. I turn off then open pot. My oil reserve hasn't changed level or appearance. I guess it is time to take a close look at the pump for wear. As I said, my approach is not scientific. If it works, it works. But, I do maintain my tools and this is a good reminder to do some preventative maintenance on my expensive Gast vacuum pump.

Frank,

I think you are working with a different kind of pump. To my knowledge, Gast does not have the type of rotary vane, oil filled pump I am talking about. I just took a look at thier website and, from what I can see, their deepest vacuum rotary vane pump only pulls 26.5" Hg. The rotary vane pumps I am referring to are the type that are used in HVAC work and will pull 29"+. I have no experience with the type you are using.

Thanks. Mine is a model 0523. I have no idea how it works. I turn it on and it works. But this thread has reminded me I should check it out and do some preventative maintenance, if needed. I have the owners manual. I'm sure it will need rebuilding one day. The vanes do get solvent fumes pulled through them.
 

BangleGuy

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Chris, Thanks for the excellent description. I have also found that DNA can dramatically help reduce checking and cracks prior to stabilization. I have stabilized wet wood and find myself running the blanks through the process several times. For my bangle stock, maintaining dimensional stability can be a real chore with wet wood.
 

Tim K

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Thanks for all the info on this thread!
I've ordered my chamber set up from Curtis, just waiting for it to arrive!
 

tool-man

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I wanted to add a bit of info to the vacuum pump discussion. I bought a used pump (Thomas 2107CEF20), which is a oil free, diaphragm type. About $35 on eBay. (list price about $240)
pump.jpg
It is a dual head model and I have the heads connected in tandem. It reaches about 28 in of HG vacuum in about 30-40 seconds (no liquid in chamber). The specs for this pump are only 23 in of HG, but since I am running the heads in tandem maybe I get a little more.:biggrin: My point is don't automatically rule out all diaphragm pumps. Do your homework and compare specifications.

I have stablilized four banks and plan on many more. Love that Cactus Juice. :bananen_smilies051:

Tim -- there are two measures of Vacuum pumps -- thru put pump capacity and the ability to approach a perfect vacuum. If you have read the webpage, you should have noted that the ability to pull about 28 inches of mercury is very important. That takes the diaphram pumps out of the prime performance range. The more expensive ones pull a higher number of inches of vacuum.
 
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Location
Lawrenceville, GA 30043
You had me frightened at first with vacuum pumps. Just finished hooking up a couple of new ones at work, they only pump at 142 CFM. 480 volt, 17 amps. The new gas cart also uses one of these to move our insulating gas out of our product after testing. I ought to pick up one of the little 2 HP jobs we're about to junk out, they run on 240.
 
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NYWoodturner

Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2012
Messages
82
Location
New York
Tim;
I just got my chamber from Curtis and could not be happier. Quality is outstanding - my only regret is that I didn't get a bigger one.
Scott
 
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