Stabilizing other than vacuum pump

[bigcountry11]

I see these youtube vids of folks using a pressure cooker with harderer to do basic stabilization of antler and wood.

Anyone ever try it? Also, does anyone ever work their blanks down some before stabilization?

 

[Edgar]

Pressure will not do a very good job for stabilizing. The reason for using vacuum is to pull the air out of the pores of the wood, then when you remove the vacuum, the resin will flow into the vacated areas of the wood.

Pressurizing the chamber will only force the resin into the wood a small amount. It may be better than not doing any stabilizing at all, but the results won't compare to vacuum at all.

If the blank is strong enough to work down before stabilizing, you probably don't need to stabilize it in the first place.

Just my $.02

 

[SteveG]

I agree 100% with Edgar's response re vac vs pressure. There is very little to be gained using pressure.

Let me address the issue of trimming the blanks down prior to stabilization, with the assumed goal of minimizing waste of stabilizing resin on portions of the blank that will ultimately be machined away. Even with weak blanks, you can trim them down to minimum size that can still be drilled and turned without blank failure. You can bandsaw off the corners, and some you can also pre-drill. The issue becomes the balance between increased likelihood of blank failure vs your extra prep work and savings in resin material. Many woods will twist and warp during the overall process, so a closely trimmed blank may become unusable. An average good vacuum chamber will provide complete penetration of resin without doing these trimming/drilling steps.

I think that other than reasonable sawing to size, it is best to just get to it, and have standard sized, stabilized blanks to work with.

 

[Monty]

Technically, for home stabilization, Ed is correct. But IIRC, commercial stabilization used very high pressure, much higher than can be achieved at home.

 

[KenV]

Mark,

The "harderer" I am most familiar with is a Minwax product sold in the hardware store. It is predominantly petroleum solvents dissolving a resin. When all the solvent evaporates resin remains in the wood. The amount of resin is small and the change of weight between before and after is small. The resin has an amber tone and colors light woods.

I have used thin epoxy with very slow set times to treat decayed woods. Very very strong amber and is very elusive until set, and it all sets.

Commercial processes use chemicals that need some care until cured, and while the basic research is available from the Forest Products Labratory, there are a lot of trade secrets in the details of the processes. Most use both pressure and vacuum.

But feel free to experiment and test. I suggest you use the change in weight from dry material to final solvent free final weight.

 

[robutacion]

Technically, for home stabilization, Ed is correct. But IIRC, commercial stabilization used very high pressure, much higher than can be achieved at home.

That is correct indeed, 5,000 PSI was the pressures used in one of the commercial stabilizers some years ago...!

There is a good reason it requires such pressures, none of our compressors are able to reach much more than 100PSI and that is far too little for stabilization however, and someone correct me if I'm wrong because I recall Curtis mentioning an equivalent of the max. 29.5Hg achieved in a good vacuum chamber at low altitude of something like approx. 20PSI or something like that but, is the very difference in the type of "pressure" that make it work.

Cheers
George

 

[leehljp]

Back before stabilizing was quite common, the way of stabilizing softer wood was to turn it some, cover it in thin CA and turn down a bit and cover it again with thin CA. A fellow named Eagle went so far as to wrap a few segmented blanks with thread and then CA it. Then turn. The purpose was to prevent a blowout. Eagle did a lot of experimenting and he often coated in thin CA, turned a bit off, and coated some more.

There are different stories about Eagle and the few times I interacted with him was in the area of delicate blanks that he had to make sure did not blow out when turning.

This takes patience, not for the "get through quickly" mindset.

 

[bigcountry11]

Thanks guys. Not sure if I want to pull the trigger on a setup yet. I do appreciate all the information. Maybe casting would suit me better

 

[ElMostro]

I posted this back in 2010 but some of the info still applies to your question so here it is again.
Eugene.

Note 18 June: The easiest and cheaper way to do it( in the long run) is to use one of the stabilizing solutions on the market but if you like to experiment read below.

Disclaimer: I am not an expert, these are techniques that I use and work for what I do, there are likely better (read more expensive) ways to stabilize wood out there so this list is not all inclusive. First I will give you my definition of "stabilizing wood" for pen turning. "To take a piece of wood that is too soft in its current state and and harden it (stabilize it) in order to make it turnable.

METHOD 1: (the simplest). Use Minwax wood hardener. Pour a can of Minwax Wood Hardener in a glass jar big enough so that a normal pen blank (aprox 3/4" x 3/4" x 5 1/2") can lay flat. Drop the blanks in the jar and close lid tightly. Wait until blanks sink plus one day then take out and let dry. The Minwax will saturate the blank and harden the fibers. It will not fill wormholes or repair cracks. Depending on the type of wood this can take from 2-5 days and drying will also take a few days. (DO NOT PUT IT IN A TOASTER OVEN TO SPEED UP DRYING...unless you like to turn burnt wood...DAMHIKT). Most of the mix will evaporate but it will stiffen the blank some.

METHOD 1A:If you want to speed it up you can place a weight (do not use a wood block bec it will absorb the hardener) on top of the blanks so that they do not float. Make sure the liquid completely covers the blank and follow steps above.

METHOD 1B: If you want to speed it up more and plan on doing this for many blanks you can set up a paint pressure pot and apply pressure to the blanks while submerged in the hardener. This is what I do and apply 80 psi for about 24 hours and by then the blanks have sunk. (I tried vacuum once but it foams up and wastes/evaporates most of the liquid AND over time the acetone will destroy the rubber parts in the pump)

Method 2: Requires Acetone, acrylic (Plexiglas) air compressor and a paint pressure pot . Make sure it is acrylic because if not it will not work. Pour the acetone in a tall mason jar about half full. Cut the Plexiglas in 1" squares. I use a bolt cutter for this just make sure you have eye protection bec the plexiglas has a tendency shoot out when it cracks. Put the pieces of Plexiglas in the acetone jar and close tightly (acetone evaporates very quickly). Sit jar on a shelf out of the way and shake it every 4-5 hours. Depending on the quantity of Plexiglas and acetone it may take a few days to dissolve into a syrup like slurry. Take another jar like the one from the minwax method and pour the slurry in the jar. If you have a clump at the bottom of the mason jar leave it there and pour more acetone in it. Set it on a shelf and shake it at least twice a day. Keep repeating this until the Plexiglas is completely dissolved and transferred to the larger jar. Make enough so that the large jar is no more than half way full but full enough to cover the blanks if submerged. The final solution should have the consistency of water. Once the solution is ready put the blanks you want to stabilize in the mixture, weigh then down with something so they stay submerged put the whole thing in the pressure pot put the lid on as per instructions and apply pressure. Again I apply 80 PSI. Apply pressure for about 12 hours then release it, let stand for several hours then apply pressure again. I do this about 4 or five times over a 3-4 day period. After doing this several times release the air, open the pot and take out the blanks and set them out side to dry. Do not stack them on each other bec they will stick. The acetone evaporates and the dissolved acrylic hardens inside the wood fibers. One additional benefit is that wood treated like this is easier to turn and finishes easier. You can use vacuum BUT remember that acetone disolves rubber so unless you have a filter on the vac pump the acetone fumes may damage the rubber in the pump)

Method 3: Requires Mineral Spirits, oil base poly, air compressor and a paint pressure pot. Make a 50/50 mix of poly and mineral spirits. Again, not more than 1/2 full for the large glass jar. Follow the directions above for the plexi-tone, the method is the same but the mixture is what is different.

Method 4: Requires Allumilite, air compressor and a paint pressure pot. This falls more under "casting" VS stabilizing but is a method I use for blanks with cracks, holes, and missing chunks of wood. Mesquiteman (Curtis) covers it very well, see link.
http://content.penturners.org/articles/2007/worthlesswoodblanks.pdf

As others have mentioned Ultraseal also works very well. (not sure if ioy still available for sale)

Then you can always send your stuff out to be professionally stabilized, big machines do the same thing as above but the liquids are different and under a lot more pressure with the final stage being that they "cook" the blanks which some times distorts them. The price is about $10-15 per pound with a minimum number of pounds required. You send them 5 pound of wood they treat it and weigh it then they charge you by the pound. So 5 pounds of punky dry wood can weigh 15 pounds by the time they get done with it. Yea, I know what you are thinking...that is why I use the methods above.

And Finally ""Caution""; Do this only in a WELL VENTILATED area (out doors) and use eye and breathing protection, in addition to gloves AND don't smoke. All of these chemicals release vapors that are bad for your lungs and eyes and are flammable. Safety first!

Again; This is the way I have done it, it works for me but may not work for you.

El Mostro

 

[Marnat3]

Would I be able to use Min-wax hardener , a mason jar and a hand vacuum pump to do a handful (3 or 4) of blanks at a time? Just wondering because I have a hand pump from my days as a mechanic.

 

[ronaldcolby]

Would I be able to use Min-wax hardener , a mason jar and a hand vacuum pump to do a handful (3 or 4) of blanks at a time? Just wondering because I have a hand pump from my days as a mechanic.

Yes, I do it all the time.

 

[Marnat3]

thank you

 

[bigcountry11]

Very informative, thanks

I posted this back in 2010 but some of the info still applies to your question so here it is again.
Eugene.

Note 18 June: The easiest and cheaper way to do it( in the long run) is to use one of the stabilizing solutions on the market but if you like to experiment read below.

Disclaimer: I am not an expert, these are techniques that I use and work for what I do, there are likely better (read more expensive) ways to stabilize wood out there so this list is not all inclusive. First I will give you my definition of "stabilizing wood" for pen turning. "To take a piece of wood that is too soft in its current state and and harden it (stabilize it) in order to make it turnable.

METHOD 1: (the simplest). Use Minwax wood hardener. Pour a can of Minwax Wood Hardener in a glass jar big enough so that a normal pen blank (aprox 3/4" x 3/4" x 5 1/2") can lay flat. Drop the blanks in the jar and close lid tightly. Wait until blanks sink plus one day then take out and let dry. The Minwax will saturate the blank and harden the fibers. It will not fill wormholes or repair cracks. Depending on the type of wood this can take from 2-5 days and drying will also take a few days. (DO NOT PUT IT IN A TOASTER OVEN TO SPEED UP DRYING...unless you like to turn burnt wood...DAMHIKT). Most of the mix will evaporate but it will stiffen the blank some.

METHOD 1A:If you want to speed it up you can place a weight (do not use a wood block bec it will absorb the hardener) on top of the blanks so that they do not float. Make sure the liquid completely covers the blank and follow steps above.

METHOD 1B: If you want to speed it up more and plan on doing this for many blanks you can set up a paint pressure pot and apply pressure to the blanks while submerged in the hardener. This is what I do and apply 80 psi for about 24 hours and by then the blanks have sunk. (I tried vacuum once but it foams up and wastes/evaporates most of the liquid AND over time the acetone will destroy the rubber parts in the pump)

Method 2: Requires Acetone, acrylic (Plexiglas) air compressor and a paint pressure pot . Make sure it is acrylic because if not it will not work. Pour the acetone in a tall mason jar about half full. Cut the Plexiglas in 1" squares. I use a bolt cutter for this just make sure you have eye protection bec the plexiglas has a tendency shoot out when it cracks. Put the pieces of Plexiglas in the acetone jar and close tightly (acetone evaporates very quickly). Sit jar on a shelf out of the way and shake it every 4-5 hours. Depending on the quantity of Plexiglas and acetone it may take a few days to dissolve into a syrup like slurry. Take another jar like the one from the minwax method and pour the slurry in the jar. If you have a clump at the bottom of the mason jar leave it there and pour more acetone in it. Set it on a shelf and shake it at least twice a day. Keep repeating this until the Plexiglas is completely dissolved and transferred to the larger jar. Make enough so that the large jar is no more than half way full but full enough to cover the blanks if submerged. The final solution should have the consistency of water. Once the solution is ready put the blanks you want to stabilize in the mixture, weigh then down with something so they stay submerged put the whole thing in the pressure pot put the lid on as per instructions and apply pressure. Again I apply 80 PSI. Apply pressure for about 12 hours then release it, let stand for several hours then apply pressure again. I do this about 4 or five times over a 3-4 day period. After doing this several times release the air, open the pot and take out the blanks and set them out side to dry. Do not stack them on each other bec they will stick. The acetone evaporates and the dissolved acrylic hardens inside the wood fibers. One additional benefit is that wood treated like this is easier to turn and finishes easier. You can use vacuum BUT remember that acetone disolves rubber so unless you have a filter on the vac pump the acetone fumes may damage the rubber in the pump)

Method 3: Requires Mineral Spirits, oil base poly, air compressor and a paint pressure pot. Make a 50/50 mix of poly and mineral spirits. Again, not more than 1/2 full for the large glass jar. Follow the directions above for the plexi-tone, the method is the same but the mixture is what is different.

Method 4: Requires Allumilite, air compressor and a paint pressure pot. This falls more under "casting" VS stabilizing but is a method I use for blanks with cracks, holes, and missing chunks of wood. Mesquiteman (Curtis) covers it very well, see link.
http://content.penturners.org/articles/2007/worthlesswoodblanks.pdf

As others have mentioned Ultraseal also works very well. (not sure if ioy still available for sale)

Then you can always send your stuff out to be professionally stabilized, big machines do the same thing as above but the liquids are different and under a lot more pressure with the final stage being that they "cook" the blanks which some times distorts them. The price is about $10-15 per pound with a minimum number of pounds required. You send them 5 pound of wood they treat it and weigh it then they charge you by the pound. So 5 pounds of punky dry wood can weigh 15 pounds by the time they get done with it. Yea, I know what you are thinking...that is why I use the methods above.

And Finally ""Caution""; Do this only in a WELL VENTILATED area (out doors) and use eye and breathing protection, in addition to gloves AND don't smoke. All of these chemicals release vapors that are bad for your lungs and eyes and are flammable. Safety first!

Again; This is the way I have done it, it works for me but may not work for you.

El Mostro