newbie question about stabalization

[martin pearson]

I have a couple of pieces of wood that I think will need to be stabilised so I am going to give it a try after doing a bit more research on how it is done.
Question is am I better cutting the lumps of wood into blanks before I stabilise it or stabilising the lumps & then cutting into blanks

 

[terry q]

If your talking about pen blanks round after stabilizing. If your stabilizing lidded box size pcs then rough turn and rough hollow. This should answer your questions about stabilizing. https://www.turntex.com/help-center/cactus-juice-stabilizing-resources/87-using-cactus-juice-video

 

[chartle]

I would say cutting first. Easier to get any extra moisture out and the stabilizer in.

For things like bowls I've seen them rough turned and then stabilized. Gets the stuff soaked in quicker and you waste less juice.

 

[martin pearson]

thanks for the replies, sorry I was thinking pen blanks

Was just thinking with the poor condition of the wood it might not cut to well but if I am only rough sawing it I don't suppose it will matter lol, will have a read though the posted link thanks/

 

[chartle]

thanks for the replies, sorry I was thinking pen blanks

Was just thinking with the poor condition of the wood it might not cut to well but if I am only rough sawing it I don't suppose it will matter lol, will have a read though the posted link thanks/

Well yes if its so fragile that cutting it up would destroy it stabilize first. But if its that fragile getting the juice into the nooks and crannies shouldn't be an issue. You just need a big enough chamber.

 

[martin pearson]

Thanks again for the link, that explained things very simply

Well yes if its so fragile that cutting it up would destroy it stabilize first. But if its that fragile getting the juice into the nooks and crannies shouldn't be an issue. You just need a big enough chamber.

Haha, yer I do some work with carbon fibre so have a degassing chamber that is probably large enough, only problem with that is that I would need a lot of resin so submerge the lumps if not cut first

Does anyone use vacuum bagging rather than a pot with larger pieces of wood?
Obviously I don't have a great deal of knowledge on this subject but can't think why it wouldn't work

 

[terry q]

Vacuum bagging will not work for stabilizing. I stabilize in a 1 gallon glass jar. Whatever fits in the opening and leave 2-3 inches of head space for weights. I currently am stabilizing a couple banksia pods. Weights are necessary to keep the material submerged.

 

[chartle]

Does anyone use vacuum bagging rather than a pot with larger pieces of wood?

Hold Fast has a system for vacuum bagging bowls and the like but pretty sure if the material is that fragile the bag would probably crush it.

https://youtu.be/WGEQstQKLFs?t=1276

As for the amount of resin needed to submerge it you could put other clean stuff in with it. At the dollar store* they have bags of those glass beads used in flower arraignments Or you could use glass marbles. Clean chain, nuts and bolts, etc. In fact I've used chain to keep stuff from not floating.

*ETA: just noticed where you are from so replace Dollar store with Pound land.

PS Can you post some pics of the "lumps"?

 

[chartle]

You can also put the lumps into other containers and then put those in your chamber, but is your chamber rated for almost 100% vacuum for maybe a day or 2?

Every time I see degassing its put in the chamber vacuum turned on. Stuff bubbles like crazy so vacuum let off and then a few cycles of this until no more bubbles.

 

[robutacion]

G'day Martin,

I just saw your thread, I didn't know or I can recall, you were an IAP member, cheers...!

I don't think that your chunks of wood could possibly be any softer and or fragile than some pieces of wood I get around here that break apart just by looking at it the wrong way (if you know what I mean), there are ways to keep the fragile stuff together in preparation to stabilising and until the Cactus Juice (is what I use) cooks/cures it, after that you can cut it with little trouble.

Depending on the sizes of the pieces you have and their condition, you may be able to cut them in oversized pen blanks, 1" square or something like that, however, you have to consider the fact that stabilising excess/waste wood is a very expensive exercise so, you may need to consider cutting pieces that will give you double or triple pen blanks, this would put less stress on the fragile wood and make it a little stronger to handle, for example, a blank 65mm square x 130mm long will give you 9 pen blanks at about 20mm x 130mm when stabilised and cut with very little waste, make the blanks/wood block shorter if you don't need 130mm length.

Oven time to remove all moisture from the wood even if old and half rotten is most crucial and one of the questions you need to ask yourself is, is this wood important enough to you or will it produce well worth results compared to the costs of having it stabilised even if you already own a full stabilisation set-up, setting yourself up with the proper gear will only be worth it if you have a constant use for it, these are obviously MY views/opinions

You are most welcome to ask any questions you may have, I will try my very best to help out.

Cheers
George

 

[robutacion]

Yeah, I did it again, I had another brain "fart"...!

Now, the name Martin Pearson rung the bell immediately from an order that I had from my web-store recently but somehow, I forgot that the reason that order was initiated was that Martin was the winner of the July Introduction prize with his AU$25.00 gift voucher so, I should have remembered that but I didn't and I'm very sorry Martin, I knew my brain is getting very forgetful but this is just ridiculous, sorry mate. :redface:

Cheers
George

 

[martin pearson]

Thanks for all the replies, sorry about the delay in replying but not been to well so haven't been looking in.
George, no worries, got the blanks now thanks

I ended up cutting the lumps up into smaller pieces as was suggested, wasn't as difficult as I thought it would be, that's obviously inexperience for you :frown:

Not done anything with the small bits yet as looking at different options, cactus juice is quite expensive in the UK, I don't mind investing a bit in experimentation but like to try & do a bit of research before investing to much as I don't have a bottomless pit of money lol

Looked at the Hold Fast system & to be honest it is pretty much the same idea as any degassing chamber, their Vacuum bags are the same as a lot of other bags available. Their system doesn't seem to have a catchpot on the outlet side which surprised me, they use a venturi based Vacuum generator but the correct vac pump set up would do the same job.

 

[chartle]

Thanks for all the replies, sorry about the delay in replying but not been to well so haven't been looking in.
George, no worries, got the blanks now thanks

I ended up cutting the lumps up into smaller pieces as was suggested, wasn't as difficult as I thought it would be, that's obviously inexperience for you :frown:

Not done anything with the small bits yet as looking at different options, cactus juice is quite expensive in the UK, I don't mind investing a bit in experimentation but like to try & do a bit of research before investing to much as I don't have a bottomless pit of money lol

Looked at the Hold Fast system & to be honest it is pretty much the same idea as any degassing chamber, their Vacuum bags are the same as a lot of other bags available. Their system doesn't seem to have a catchpot on the outlet side which surprised me, they use a venturi based Vacuum generator but the correct vac pump set up would do the same job.

If you looked at the Hold Fast video I posted they did use a catchpot. Its part of their system and is just really a smaller chamber to do smaller items.

But you don't need their setup. You need vacuum (near 0 or -29 or however its measured) and something you can put your stuff into that sealed and can withstand the vacuum for maybe a few days.

I use mason jars, a quart and a half gallon one. I also have a wider mouthed smaller canister type jar from IKEA that I haven't gotten around to.

So far its the juice that costs the most.

But like I posted about bagging it will work as long as it doesn't crush your stuff. Like you couldn't do a hasp's nest.

 

[martin pearson]

Obviously different terminology Cliff, when doing carbon fibre work a catchpot would sit between the vacuum pump or generator in their case & the pot they use to stabilise the wood. When vacuum is drawn it prevents carry over of resin from reaching the vacuum pump.
They do say in the video to start drawing your vacuum slowly to prevent resin being sucked along the pipe to the vacuum generator, sorry it may not have been the video you linked to but another one as I watched a few of their videos

Still got a lot to learn about this but your saying you need to be able to maintain the vacuum for a couple of days, surely once all the air has been drawn out then your good to release the vacuum ? On the Hold Fast videos they only maintain it for a short period of time, think about 45 mins in the couple of videos I watched.

Maintaining the vacuum for a couple of days wouldn't be a problem, no leaks in my system so once the vacuum has been drawn I can isolate it & it will happily sit there far as long as required

Cactus juice is quite expensive in the UK so one thing I am doing is looking at alternatives, Looks like they use a Bio-Resin with the Hold Fast system which would be much cheaper for me

 

[PatrickR]

Martin, you will find some pieces will take days to pull all of the air out, others only hours. You will have to leave the pump on until the bubbles stop. There is no reason to turn the pump off early. They are made to run continuously.

 

[martin pearson]

Thanks Patrick, I did wonder if it had something to do with the rate that the air was expelled
Yes I could leave the pump on without doing it any harm although not all Vacuum pumps are rated for continuous running. I just don't see the point when there is no need to. If you don't have any leaks then once you have pulled your vacuum it should remain fairly constant even if isolated from the pump

 

[PatrickR]

It has been covered either here or the CJ website. I think the simple explanation is that the added air lowers the vac, slowing the process.

 

[chartle]

Thanks Patrick, I did wonder if it had something to do with the rate that the air was expelled
Yes I could leave the pump on without doing it any harm although not all Vacuum pumps are rated for continuous running. I just don't see the point when there is no need to. If you don't have any leaks then once you have pulled your vacuum it should remain fairly constant even if isolated from the pump

It has been covered either here or the CJ website. I think the simple explanation is that the added air lowers the vac, slowing the process.

Yes the air in wood is not going to all suck out pretty much instantaneously like in carbon fiber, it can sit there quite awhile while the air slowly works it way out through the tiny pores.

I also think in carbon fiber work you suck out all the air turn a valve to seal it and leave everything to cure. Stabilization is much slower since like I posted its can take a long time for the resin to get into the middle of the blank.

 

[martin pearson]

Thanks Guys

Cliff yes if I am doing something like resin infusion once the resin has been sucked through the matting that is pretty much it as far as the vacuum goes & as you say the resin will reach the centre of any carbon fibre job pretty quickly

Patrick, I am sure it will have been covered on here before, I doubt I am asking anything that hasn't been asked before at some point, unfortunately I am not very good when it comes to searching forums for relevant information :frown: