Ron Brown stole the Joyner Off Center Jig design and is selling as his

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Dan Masshardt

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" Here's the thing though - outside of this forum, who's even going to know? "" Dan "Come on" That all depends on you, me and everyone else on this forum that agrees that this practice is unethical. Peach Tree or Ron Brown are not the only ones that excess to Face Book and other forms of social media. Send an email to all of the members of your wood turning/wood working clubs, let them know! Besides that there is always the good ole fashion WORD OF MOUTH! That still is one of the best ways to spread the word. Again like someone mentioned this a small niche of a market. You take away even a small portion of their customers it will hurt them, may not put them out of business, but will hurt. Then maybe the next guy will think twice. So if we do sit back on our butt's and do nothing, we are basically condoning the practice. Then we have no business complaining. Let's just shut up! Don't want to go into politics but, if you need an example look at what this country has come to. While the vast majority sits in their peach's & cream world. The special interest groups have chipped away at everything we once held dear.

There are levels of upset about something.

One is it changes your attitude as buying habits. The other is that it sends you on the warpath.

For me it's prob mostly the first as well as informing someone considering buying such an item in the history of the situation.

I don't intend to go on the warpath and I doubt many here who are upset will either.

That's not to say someone shouldn't...
 
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BJohn

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Well as much as I wanted to just let my part of this discussion die. I can't.

But promise this will be be my last comment. (like anyone cares) But I will move on to more positive discussions.

I Don't want people to think I am on the "warpath" Because I am not, I am just stating my opinion. Which may give others that are so inclined some ideas.

While I realize this is not going to happen! What I would encourage Mr. Brown to do, is to admit the mistake, apologize remove the item from sale or maybe send Mr. Joyner a royalty. That might go a long way.

One other thought is to encourage other actual manufactures to pull their products from him. Trust me they would not be hurt. I may be wrong but I don't think his piece of the pie is that large.

So basically the choice to make, ignore and condone or take a stand, Every one can make their own decision for whats right for them.

I have made my choice, all have a great day ya'll.
 

Dan Masshardt

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Well as much as I wanted to just let my part of this discussion die. I can't. But promise this will be be my last comment. (like anyone cares) But I will move on to more positive discussions. I Don't want people to think I am on the "warpath" Because I am not, I am just stating my opinion. Which may give others that are so inclined some ideas. While I realize this is not going to happen! What I would encourage Mr. Brown to do, is to admit the mistake, apologize remove the item from sale or maybe send Mr. Joyner a royalty. That might go a long way. One other thought is to encourage other actual manufactures to pull their products from him. Trust me they would not be hurt. I may be wrong but I don't think his piece of the pie is that large. So basically the choice to make, ignore and condone or take a stand, Every one can make their own decision for whats right for them. I have made my choice, all have a great day ya'll.

Good comment! I prob chose a poor word in 'warpath' as it's somewhat negatively connotated.

I would not fault anybody for taking active efforts to let others know what's going on. It would prob be good if more people took an active role.
 

edstreet

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No longer confused....
It may not be patented but it definitely would fall under copyright law. Copyright exists when something is created even without it being registered. A direct copy would be copyright infringement and a lawyer who specializes in this part of law should be consulted as we here most likely know enough to get ourselves in trouble... :confused:
271

Incorrect. This chuck does not fall under copyright laws, you might want to brush up on patent/trademark/copyright laws.

copyright = published/unpublished works.
trademark = symbol, logo, name.
patent = invention, an object, process, that was developed.
 

dogcatcher

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Quite a bit of the overall design was contributed by some people from IAP. But even that idea came from here. Turned Jewellery - The Woodworkers Institute

If I remember correctly someone made the first pendants using a screw chuck and it kind of snowballed from there. Then Joyner added the indexing and refined it to what his chuck is today. Until I bought the chuck from Joyner, I used a PSI bottle stopper chuck with a piece of round aluminum that I had drilled and tapped. Prior to that I used a piece of Corian for my "off set face plate" with the PSI bottle chuck. Sometimes I still use them both if I am only making simple pendants.
 

KenV

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Juneau, Alaska.
There have been a raft of off center jigs --

PSI has the CSC600 which was developed by and individual an then was taken over for marketing by PSI -

Axminister has an off center chuck that fits into a 4 jaw scroll chuck jaws that does many of the same functions

There is the piece of board between two jaws on a scroll chuck and the board is moved for the offset -- I use a Super Nova 2 with 2 100mm opposing jaws.

Gary Ransom sells a DVD to teach you how to make a jig that fits in the scroll chuck jaws The Ransom approach allows shaping of both sides of the items being turned.

and others....


How close does it need to be before it is a knock off - For another example the Steb drives were patented and licensed to Sorby -- and knocked off quickly and there was some legal mumbo-jumbo and settlement.

Without a patent there is just competition in marketing, and competition in pricing.
 

Smitty37

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Any order for 50 items like this would have involved some type of payment arrangements. Just not reasonable to expect a maker to produce 50 of any items without some type of money being exchanged or having a finical arrangement made. Terms would have been agreed to or full payment would have been made at the time the order was placed. They did not have standing financial or maker to buyer type accounts setup so something wold need to be setup at the time the order was placed. Since I have heard of no such type arrangements I doubt any order for 50 was ever placed.

So I will try to avoid this vender and any company he represents. I will not reward those who choose to profit shamelessly of the works of others. Maybe legal but so is a total boycott of their goods and services.
Not necessarily I recently made an order with A vendor here for 500 kits - verbal order on the phone -- no money changed hands until the order was almost completed and I had received 70 units to examine. People still occasionally do business on mutual trust.
 

Smitty37

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I still find this so curious of a post. The entire woodworking industry, and especially the woodturning side, is filled with copies. In fact, our countries history is filled with examples. Ever read the history between the Wright Brothers and Glenn Curtiss? The Feds made them "kiss and make up" for the war effort. But the Wrights spent years in court suing Curtiss. Curiously, the company is now called Curtiss-Wright today.
Curtiss and the Wright brothers were all dead when the two companies merged.
 

TonyL

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I unsubscribed a few days ago...but maybe, it would be nice to move this to a different post where it does continually name the accused individual of stealing. It seems like many see all sides to this..yet the title stays the same. I met and spoke to Ron, met and spoke to Barry, and spoke to Ruth and own some of their products. They were all super nice to me, before and after I bought their products. Hasn't anyone else been treated nicely? And yes, I have been stolen from, lied to, ripped-off (not by them), falsely accused, and all of the other stuff that we all experience. Why can't we continue this "lively debate" (I think it is a very interesting topic BTW), without anyone's name being presented as a thief? Maybe, I am a dope and missing the big picture...just my 1 cent to keep us on track and reflect the underlying goodwill and good intentions of the members and vendors. FWIW :).
 

Smitty37

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The Bottom Line

I'll preface what I'm going to say with this - I don't have a dog in this hunt - I carried Ruth's bottle stoppers for a time and my dealings with Ruth were fine. I have never done business with Peachtree so I know nothing about them and I won't make any judgement about either.

Having said that: It may be unfortunate but it is a fact of life and built into the nature of human beings that if we see someone doing something that works better than what we've been doing we will copy it. The second person to use a stick to make a furrow to plant something in copied the first.

That will hold true for any useful invention.

That is the reason patent laws came about - to give someone the exclusive right to an invention for a limited period of time.

That patent laws exist puts inventors on notice, that unless they use them their best inventions WILL be 'knocked off' and being perfectly frank there is nothing we can do that will change that.

We might not like it but it's a fact of life. Maybe what we should try to do is make it less costly to get a patent.
 

tjseagrove

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It may not be patented but it definitely would fall under copyright law. Copyright exists when something is created even without it being registered. A direct copy would be copyright infringement and a lawyer who specializes in this part of law should be consulted as we here most likely know enough to get ourselves in trouble... :confused:
271

Incorrect. This chuck does not fall under copyright laws, you might want to brush up on patent/trademark/copyright laws.

copyright = published/unpublished works.
trademark = symbol, logo, name.
patent = invention, an object, process, that was developed.


A sculpture is not copyrighted? No copyright on visual appearance? And don't forget, I recommended seeking the advice of someone who actually knows what they are doing (a lawyer) as no one here is any kind of an expert on this subject. Make it a teachable moment, no need to come down so hard.
642649
 
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Smitty37

Passed Away Mar 29, 2018
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It may not be patented but it definitely would fall under copyright law. Copyright exists when something is created even without it being registered. A direct copy would be copyright infringement and a lawyer who specializes in this part of law should be consulted as we here most likely know enough to get ourselves in trouble... :confused:
271

Incorrect. This chuck does not fall under copyright laws, you might want to brush up on patent/trademark/copyright laws.

copyright = published/unpublished works.
trademark = symbol, logo, name.
patent = invention, an object, process, that was developed.


A sculpture is not copyrighted? No copyright on visual appearance? And don't forget, I recommended seeking the advice of someone who actually knows what they are doing (a lawyer) as no one here is any kind of an expert on this subject. Make it a teachable moment, no need to come down so hard.
642649
While most copyright application is to written (published or unpublished) works the legal definition specifically includes sculptural works as well as architectual works.
 

LancsLad

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Ron Brown Stolen Jig

Hi I just joined December 2015. I find it real sad when someone does this. It only takes one phone call or e-mail to contact anyone. Or he could have added a link to the original inventor.

I am signed up for Ron Browns Best news letter.:eek:
I will be unsubscribing after this post.:)

Honesty Rules:)
 

GaryMGg

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One thing that I really have not talked about much is that this tool is manufactured locally. And a part of all sales supports the teaching of middle school kids woodworking skills and a local youth sailing community. Both of which are a passion of mine.

Makes me even happier and prouder that I bought one from you in the early days. :)

Me too!
 

BeeAMaker

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In the open source hardware / electronics / DIY / 3D printing community, unfortunately, we see this type of thing quite often. However it is usually excusable if they follow the creative commons agreements.

In short, when you put a product or Idea out there as "Open Source" i.e. no patent, you allow others to use your Idea or product. There are 3 stipulations, 1: The "copy cat" should change on and improve the design. 2: Release the new design as "Open Source" for others to further make improvements. and 3: Give full credit to the originator of the Idea.

If those 3 things weren't met, then I agree, he needs a brow beating :p

I have had a similar thing happen to me in the 3D printing world. But they went a step further. They sent me a nice email asking me to please stop using "their" Idea. LOLOLOL I responded with all the fact, figures, and links proving I had it out first, almost 2 years prior. I never got a response.

It sucks but when greed latches onto people it can get really ugly. 3D systems tried similar tactics by stealing Ideas, filing for patents, then tried to sue the original designer for patent infringement. It goes on and on.

I don't mind my ideas being taken so much as I do not being accredited for those ideas.
 

BeeAMaker

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Sorry, didn't realize the date on the previous postings - otherwise I would not have posted. The reason I thought it was a new post was becasue it was at the bottom of the page, where there are two threads listed and an arrow to scroll through more. I assumed (wrong obviously) these were "recent postings".

Still learning the layout of the forums.
 
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cal91666

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IMO you don't need to apologize. There are some who complain when a member doesn't use the search function to obtain information that has already been discussed and there are some who will complain about a new member commenting on a thread that has dropped from the most current discussions. It takes all types to make the world go round.
 
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