Poor man's Skogger or C1a

[Rifleman1776]

As always, I fear that if I open my pocketbook, the seams will crack. So, after seeing the glowing reports of the performance of the C1a tool, I figured I could make one, or several, at much less than the C-note price of the glamor model.
I bought some spiral planer blade cutters at about $2.50 each, screws at $1.00 each and some one foot long pieces of 3/8" square cold rolled steel at less than $3.00 each. Total cost $6.50, sans handle. And that will come out of the "I can make something from this" pile of cut-offs.
As reported, it hogs wood off like crazy. Two caveats: tosses chips like crazy also. Wear eye protection. Be careful touching the cutting edges, very sharp.

 

[leehljp]

Great idea Frank. Next time I am home, I will have to get me a set of those.

Thanks for the idea! I owe you one now!

Where did you purchase those? Locally, or HD, Lowes, order or LR?

 

[wood-of-1kind]

Congrats Frank, that looks good. You've done well!!!

 

[bitshird]

Frank where were you able to find the cutter blades ??

 

[marcruby]

I found some at Toolstoday for a bit higher a price -

http://www.toolstoday.com/p-5584-14-x-14-x-2mm-4-cutting-edges.aspx

Truth is that any store that sells production metal working tools will sell a whole variety of cutters. My problem is "Which one?"

Marc

 

[stolicky]

Good job. Please share....

Ah, another project where I can use a piece from that "I can make something from this" pile of wood.

Hey, you could probably make a few bucks if were inclined to make a few and sell them here.

Oh, for the screw hole, I assume you had a tap set to match the size and threads of the screw you purchased?

 

[TribalRR]

Hey, you could probably make a few bucks if were inclined to make a few and sell them here.

While I appauld Frank for doing it himself, as I also prefer to make my own tools, I believe it would be bad taste to sell these here given that Peter has been...Just my opinion.

 

[edman2]

That's using the old bean Frank! Congratulations. A little McGregor ball glove oil will keep that wallet from cracking! Use it at the risk of having an empty wallet.:biggrin:

 

[stolicky]

While I appauld Frank for doing it himself, as I also prefer to make my own tools, I believe it would be bad taste to sell these here given that Peter has been...Just my opinion.

Good point.

I failed to fully research the history behind the tool. I just know that there was a sizable buy for the tool a little while ago, and I guess I assumed it was a commercial item. For example, a group but to obtain a better price on pen kits. I also saw that is was relatively pricey.

I apologize.

I do also appreciate making my own tools, which is why I inquired about the tap. I just also weigh my limited available time versus price point of tools.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Thanks all for the positive responses. I'll cover a couple questions in one post.

The cutters and screws came from Grizzly. The cutters are 14mm. They also have 15mm at about double the price. But, I figured that even the smaller size removes so much wood so freakin' fast that not much was to be gained by using the larger.
The steel was bought from a local steel supply/fabricating company. Actually almost any hunk or rod of steel could be made to work with a little grinding wheel time.
Drilling was not a problem. But, since I used cold rolled steel, very tough stuff, tapping did take time and care. I'm questioning whether hot (mild) steel might be a better choice just for ease of working with it.
I have no plans to sell. This is too simple a project and I don't believe there would be much of a market. I'm not a real handy guy, if I can do this, anyone can.

 

[bitshird]

I found some at Toolstoday for a bit higher a price -

http://www.toolstoday.com/p-5584-14-x-14-x-2mm-4-cutting-edges.aspx

Truth is that any store that sells production metal working tools will sell a whole variety of cutters. My problem is "Which one?"

Marc

Marc, most metal cutting inserts don't have enough rake to work well with wood, I have a few hundred carbide inserts for metal, I've got to find some of those cutters, I have every thing else, I did find some that were for cutting coves, and had a lot of different radius but none that were square.

 

[THarvey]

While I appauld Frank for doing it himself, as I also prefer to make my own tools, I believe it would be bad taste to sell these here given that Peter has been...Just my opinion.

Frank has not offered anything for sell, so I think the assumption implied is premature. I take Frank's post as a personal challenge to build my own. I would like to know where he found the cutters and screws at that price.

Should Frank decide to offer these for sell, that is his perrogative. To say that it would be in bad taste, because Petter sells something similar is like saying: 1. Wolftat should not sell money and coffee blanks, because Eugene does or 2. EddieO should not sell cartridge kits, because Sylvanite does.

I don't see anyone complaining about these similar offers.

If Frank wishes to sell these, I think he should be allowed to without issue. I hope he and Peter both succeed in their endeavors. (That's just my opinion.)

 

[the_benz]

Here is the site

http://www.grizzly.com/products/14-x-14-x-2mm-Inserts-Carbide-10-Pack/H7319

 

[stolicky]

Thanks for the info.

So, does Grizzly automatically include screws with the bits, or are they listed separately? I was just looking at them and couldn't find screws listed anywhere.

I really hate the shipping costs from Grizzly! I mean how much would a couple of small bits and screws in an envelope really cost? Even if its priority mail. Wow.

 

[wolftat]

Frank has not offered anything for sell, so I think the assumption implied is premature. I take Frank's post as a personal challenge to build my own. I would like to know where he found the cutters and screws at that price.

Should Frank decide to offer these for sell, that is his perrogative. To say that it would be in bad taste, because Petter sells something similar is like saying: 1. Wolftat should not sell money and coffee blanks, because Eugene does or 2. EddieO should not sell cartridge kits, because Sylvanite does.

I don't see anyone complaining about these similar offers.

If Frank wishes to sell these, I think he should be allowed to without issue. I hope he and Peter both succeed in their endeavors. (That's just my opinion.)

Thank you Tim, just for the record,I agree with you completely, but I have received 1 nasty PM about my coffee blanks, but that is just someone looking to cause trouble.

As far as this goes, the tool that Frank has made is another design of the tool that is being offered originally by a vendor that Peter took upon himself to make a version of. This is the way things work, if the world didn't make other versions and have multiple distributors, there would be a monopoly and that would cause the price to be decided by the sole vendor and there would be no competition. I wanted to buy a skogger, but I happened to miss out on the buy so if Frank were to sell his version of this tool, I may consider purchasing one. Peter has replied to me with my understanding that he is not making anymore at this time which should mean that the door is wide open for a new supplier to move in if they want to. This is just my opinion.

 

[Mudder]

Never In my wildest dreams did I ever think I'd be typing these words.



Frank,

I'm impressed.

 

[marcruby]

Marc, most metal cutting inserts don't have enough rake to work well with wood.

If I understood what rake was the would probably be great advice. When I get home I'm going to look in a catalog and see if they specify rake. If they do, what would be the number to look for? I also remember that they had any number of things for holding the inserts that would fit in one of my handles.

Of course, I will probably spend $125 trying to avoid spending $100, but I love that glorious feeling of figuring things out for myself.

Marc

 

[Rifleman1776]

If I understood what rake was the would probably be great advice. When I get home I'm going to look in a catalog and see if they specify rake. If they do, what would be the number to look for? I also remember that they had any number of things for holding the inserts that would fit in one of my handles.

Of course, I will probably spend $125 trying to avoid spending $100, but I love that glorious feeling of figuring things out for myself.

Marc

I really don't know what bitshird is talking about. These cutters are designed for wood. My own use of the tool I made from them demonstrates they cut/remove wood like crazy. If it works, it works and I can tell you, it works.
Later, I will be trying to fit one into my Don Pencil hollowing tool handles. Might require a few minutes grinding time. But, (I repeat myself) if it works, it works.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Never In my wildest dreams did I ever think I'd be typing these words.



Frank,

I'm impressed.

Thanks. It is simple. I can handle simple. ;-)

 

[Rifleman1776]

Thanks for the info.

So, does Grizzly automatically include screws with the bits, or are they listed separately? I was just looking at them and couldn't find screws listed anywhere.

I really hate the shipping costs from Grizzly! I mean how much would a couple of small bits and screws in an envelope really cost? Even if its priority mail. Wow.

Good question. The screws are a part, not a retail item. They must be ordered separately as a replacement part for one of the big planers that use the spiral cutters. I believe almost any flat head screw would work though. The simple and cheap part can require a little ingenuity and experimenting.
I have a leg up on the shipping problem. We get to Springfield, Missouri fairly frequently since my son and his family live nearby. I pick up what I need on those trips.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Frank has not offered anything for sell, so I think the assumption implied is premature. I take Frank's post as a personal challenge to build my own. I would like to know where he found the cutters and screws at that price.

Should Frank decide to offer these for sell, that is his perrogative. To say that it would be in bad taste, because Petter sells something similar is like saying: 1. Wolftat should not sell money and coffee blanks, because Eugene does or 2. EddieO should not sell cartridge kits, because Sylvanite does.

I don't see anyone complaining about these similar offers.

If Frank wishes to sell these, I think he should be allowed to without issue. I hope he and Peter both succeed in their endeavors. (That's just my opinion.)

Thanks, Tim. For the record, I repeat, I do not intend to sell these. I offered as an idea for a (very) simple and inexpensive home project.
If I were to offer something for sale, it would be posted in the appropriate forum and I would not have revealed my costs.

 

[TribalRR]

Tharvey, you are correct that Frank never offered to sell these. It was just suggested to him, by someone and I threw my $.02 in... I thought that Peter come up with the idea for this tool, if that is not the case I might feel differently. I didn't mean to open up the intellectual property arguement here, but I think there is such a thing. While I do like to mimic ideas, I would like to think that I would never do so for financial gain. Again, just my ideals.

Sorry this is taking away from your post.

 

[titan2]

Thanks all for the positive responses. I'll cover a couple questions in one post.

The cutters and screws came from Grizzly. The cutters are 14mm. They also have 15mm at about double the price. But, I figured that even the smaller size removes so much wood so freakin' fast that not much was to be gained by using the larger.
The steel was bought from a local steel supply/fabricating company. Actually almost any hunk or rod of steel could be made to work with a little grinding wheel time.
Drilling was not a problem. But, since I used cold rolled steel, very tough stuff, tapping did take time and care. I'm questioning whether hot (mild) steel might be a better choice just for ease of working with it.
I have no plans to sell. This is too simple a project and I don't believe there would be much of a market. I'm not a real handy guy, if I can do this, anyone can.

Do you by chance......have the Grizzly part number for the cutter and screws that you purchased? Been looking for awhile on their site and all I can come up with is the H7354 Shelix Replacement Tips, 10pk @ $29.95. Do they list/have other sizes and/or shapes? No mention of size (14 or 15mm) on the tips I did find or location of the screws you used.

THANKS......

 

[Daniel]

On the screw issue I think you are seriously wrong when you say any flat head screw will work. I would not use just any screw off the hardware store shelf either. it needs to be a tough screw since it is small so that it does not just shear off. having gotten a planer blade screw landed you in the right quality of hardware since it is serving pretty much the same job. I just got this vision of a carbide cutter leaving the tool as someone is turning. could get ugly. anyway stay with the premium grade screws.
as for rake. that is the angle of the cutting tip. metal cutting tools do not have much if any rake because this creates a stronger edge that will stay sharp longer. some metal cutting tools actually have a negative rake, think o a hacksaw blade compaired to a wood cutting handsaw blade. the handsaws tooth actually leans forward in to the cut. the angle that the tooth is leaning forward is the rake. on the hacksaw blade the tooht actually leans backward. this is negative rake. wood cutting tools have more rake so that they can bite deeper and the tool effectively has a sharper edge requiring less force to get it to cut. knowing this when you select an insert will make a difference in how a tool performs. If you really wanted to go all out your could actually find a cutter that works best for acrylics and one that works best for wood etc. of course you might have a lot of spare inserts laying around the shop that way. I'll see if I can get some pictures of cutting bits I have ground later to show the different parts of a cutting edge and how they effect a tools ability to do the job.

 

[helgi]

For all those turners that are thinking of making this tool, I phoned Grizzly and they do not ship to CANADA so again we here in the frozen north are looking from the outside in.
Helgi, in Saskatchewan.

 

[smitty]

Nice job Frank. I was planning on doing the same thing just didn't know what I would do with all 10 carbide inserts. Let me know if you would like to sell a few inserts and screws.

 

[marcruby]

If it works, it works and I can tell you, it works.

I believe you. It's your success that has me thinking how I might make my own.

You have to understand that my only metalworking tool is a grinder and a couple of files. What I want to do is go down the street to the production tool supply place and buy what I need to assemble it with a screw driver and then stick it in one of the handles I have around.

Marc

 

[Rifleman1776]

Do you by chance......have the Grizzly part number for the cutter and screws that you purchased? Been looking for awhile on their site and all I can come up with is the H7354 Shelix Replacement Tips, 10pk @ $29.95. Do they list/have other sizes and/or shapes? No mention of size (14 or 15mm) on the tips I did find or location of the screws you used.

THANKS......

The tips I bought are: H7319 @ $24.95
The screws are: PFH35M flat hd torx R20 M6-1 x 15 @ $1.00 ea.

This info from my receipt.

 

[Rifleman1776]

On the screw issue I think you are seriously wrong when you say any flat head screw will work. I would not use just any screw off the hardware store shelf either. it needs to be a tough screw since it is small so that it does not just shear off. having gotten a planer blade screw landed you in the right quality of hardware since it is serving pretty much the same job. I just got this vision of a carbide cutter leaving the tool as someone is turning. could get ugly. anyway stay with the premium grade screws.
as for rake. that is the angle of the cutting tip. metal cutting tools do not have much if any rake because this creates a stronger edge that will stay sharp longer. some metal cutting tools actually have a negative rake, think o a hacksaw blade compaired to a wood cutting handsaw blade. the handsaws tooth actually leans forward in to the cut. the angle that the tooth is leaning forward is the rake. on the hacksaw blade the tooht actually leans backward. this is negative rake. wood cutting tools have more rake so that they can bite deeper and the tool effectively has a sharper edge requiring less force to get it to cut. knowing this when you select an insert will make a difference in how a tool performs. If you really wanted to go all out your could actually find a cutter that works best for acrylics and one that works best for wood etc. of course you might have a lot of spare inserts laying around the shop that way. I'll see if I can get some pictures of cutting bits I have ground later to show the different parts of a cutting edge and how they effect a tools ability to do the job.

Thanks, Daniel about the screw info. Wadda I know?

 

[Rifleman1776]

I believe you. It's your success that has me thinking how I might make my own.

You have to understand that my only metalworking tool is a grinder and a couple of files. What I want to do is go down the street to the production tool supply place and buy what I need to assemble it with a screw driver and then stick it in one of the handles I have around.

Marc

Those are exactly the same metalworking tools I have. Except plus a vice. Like I said, it is a simple project.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Nice job Frank. I was planning on doing the same thing just didn't know what I would do with all 10 carbide inserts. Let me know if you would like to sell a few inserts and screws.

I plan to give away several of these tools and keep a couple extra cutters for my own future needs. They stay sharp a long time but the experts will tell you that sand will dull anything. I turn a fair amount of Osage Orange and that has a high silica content. That's just a fancy word for sand. They can be sharpened but the experts say it isn't worth the effort.

 

[Gary Max]

Heck I have been using these for the last 6 months---a freind made them for me ---all I supplied was the cutters---the long one is for bowls and the short for pens---notice the high tech plastic tube handle on the long one---that came from BORG---cost for building both of these---less than $20.00

 

[Woodlvr]

Nice job Frank.

Gary I am guessing that they both have different degree of cutters on them?

 

[johnnycnc]

Frank, good idea; I'll have to try this myself!!:biggrin:

 

[Gary Max]

Mike they are the same----nothing high tech or fancy here. I just bought a couple cutters and asked a friend to mill and tap for me.

 

[smitty]

Thanks Frank
I'll just buy the 10 inserts and do like you give a few to friends.

 

[bitshird]

If I understood what rake was the would probably be great advice. When I get home I'm going to look in a catalog and see if they specify rake. If they do, what would be the number to look for? I also remember that they had any number of things for holding the inserts that would fit in one of my handles.

Of course, I will probably spend $125 trying to avoid spending $100, but I love that glorious feeling of figuring things out for myself.

Marc

Marc and Frank, someone had suggested metal cutting inserts, the relief or the cutting edge on them is usually around 7 degrees at least on the single sided inserts, most of the double sided ones have no relief, that comes from the index tool holder which means not a lot of angle to the cutting edge.
On the planer blades looks like it's somewhere around 30 degrees which would make them sharper,

 

[wood-of-1kind]

On the planer blades looks like it's somewhere around 30 degrees which would make them sharper,

BINGO, we have a winner.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Heck I have been using these for the last 6 months---a freind made them for me ---all I supplied was the cutters---the long one is for bowls and the short for pens---notice the high tech plastic tube handle on the long one---that came from BORG---cost for building both of these---less than $20.00

Way to go. I never claimed to be original. Just cheap.

 

[Gary Max]

Heck Frank--- in my case it's just a matter of being poor. I can't find the link but there was a place you could buy the cutter cheap--- If I find it I will post the link. I bought them as router replacement cutters?????