Chuck out of round

[BeeAMaker]

I have recently discovered that both of my El-Cheep-O chucks are out of round.

Now I don't expect them to be perfect because of the brand, one is the mini barracuda 2.5" chuck and the other is the cheep 4" one from pen state "C type" is says on the chuck.

I didn't notice them being this bad when I first got them, but that may be because I didn't know what I was doing at the time, and didn't know what to look for.

Anyways, is there any reason these may have "became" out of round or are these simply cheep chucks and it's time I step up to a good one?

Is there anything that can be done to true them up?

By the way, I checked my spindle and it is less than a 0.001 out. The back side of the chucks spin true, it is mostly the jaws that way out of round, 0.0236. On low speeds I can visually see the wobble.

Maybe all chucks are out a bit and it really doens't matter? This wobble seems to be the cause of the huge vibrations when trying to drill larger holes. and my lathe vibrates at high speeds, even after turning the stock round and true.

Has anyone used the Featherlite brand? Thoughts?
https://www.ptreeusa.com/turn_chucks_featherlite.html

 

[Charlie_W]

There could be several things going on. How are the spindle bearings? Outboard end spindle bearings? Does your chuck have an insert to fit your thread? Is it tight? Are the chucks indexing/seating against the shoulder on the spindle?
Have you checked pulleys/ belt which could cause vibration?
You say the jaws are not running true. Have you checked the chuck body both near the spindle and also right behind the jaws?
Have the jaws been struck by a chisel and suffered damage?
I have heard of some other brand chucks having run out and it was traced to the threaded insert. A replacement insert was still off. It took several to find one which ran more true.
If there is no issue with the lathe, then the chuck is most likely The culprit. Chucks are like anything else that is manufactured......quality varies greatly....golf clubs, lathe chisels, pianos, fire arms, cars, etc,. all are available in varying levels of quality. When one pays more, one expects better quality.

Chucks such as Vicmark and OneWay are two which tend to be a pro turners choice from what I have seen. I am sure others will have their favorites.
As for the aluminum chuck you mentioned, I would be very leary. Even with steel jaws, you still need to be concerned about internal wear from use.

Good luck!

 

[Charlie_W]

Some more thoughts: is your lathe fastened to a bench or stand?
Have you tried your chucks on another lathe?
When you say "high speed ", never ever exceed the maximum rpm as listed by the maker of your chucks.
You didn't say what lathe you have. Is it a light weight or a heavier machine?
Regardless, if these chucks did run smoothly and now do not, some investigation is due.
Safety first!

 

[Gary Beasley]

Check to see that the jaws are mounted in the right sequence, getting them off can get them misaligned. Also mismatching brands of jaws with chucks can make a deliberate mismatch in sequence neccesary to get the alignment right.

 

[dogcatcher]

Find another turner and see if their chucks do the same thing.

 

[BeeAMaker]

There could be several things going on. How are the spindle bearings? Outboard end spindle bearings? Does your chuck have an insert to fit your thread? Is it tight? Are the chucks indexing/seating against the shoulder on the spindle?
Have you checked pulleys/ belt which could cause vibration?
You say the jaws are not running true. Have you checked the chuck body both near the spindle and also right behind the jaws?
Have the jaws been struck by a chisel and suffered damage?
I have heard of some other brand chucks having run out and it was traced to the threaded insert. A replacement insert was still off. It took several to find one which ran more true.
If there is no issue with the lathe, then the chuck is most likely The culprit. Chucks are like anything else that is manufactured......quality varies greatly....golf clubs, lathe chisels, pianos, fire arms, cars, etc,. all are available in varying levels of quality. When one pays more, one expects better quality.

Chucks such as Vicmark and OneWay are two which tend to be a pro turners choice from what I have seen. I am sure others will have their favorites.
As for the aluminum chuck you mentioned, I would be very leary. Even with steel jaws, you still need to be concerned about internal wear from use.

Good luck!

I have a Shop Fox 1836 12"x15" and an Excelsior 10"x18" .
The spindle bearing seem to be OK, absolutely no play side to side and not noisy. Is there a better way to check these?

No inserts, both 1" x 8TPI. No damage on the jaws that I can see.

Using a dial indicator, there is 0 deflection when measuring the inside spindle bore on the Shop Fox. I get just a hair deflection on the Excelsior. However the outside of the boar shows 6 thou on the SF and 1.2 thou on the Ex.

At 2000 rpm there is little vibration with no chuck. After installing the chuck I get vibration at about 1800rpm and really bad above 2000. Neither lath is bolted to the bench.

Both chucks seat well against the shoulder of both lathes. The back end of the chuck is about 7 thousands out, the Jaws are 19 thou. This is +/- 0.002 for both chucks on either lathe.

I asked about the Featherlite because I haven't found any other 2.5" chucks except for that one and the Barracuda. I like the 2.5" for small project - I don't knock my knuckles nearly as much

I would assume a bad catch or 2 could through these things out just enough to make it noticeable.

Are Nova chuck good? Rockler has this one on sale,
https://www.rockler.com/nova-30th-anniversary-g3-reversible-chuck-bundle-with-3-jaw-sets-and-case

I would say it's definitely the chuck, but I find it odd that both are out almost the same amount.


Thanks for everyone's suggestions.

 

[BeeAMaker]

Find another turner and see if their chucks do the same thing.

That's a good idea. I'll ask another member to bring a chuck this Thursday to the meeting. Thanks

 

[Curly]

When you check the chuck jaws how are you doing it? With removable jaws or without? Are you putting a steel rod in the chuck and measuring the runout on it? At what distance from the face? Or are you checking the outside of the jaws when they are closed tight or open without anything clamped? Any chance you have the jaws from the two chucks mixed up? Long shot question.

I have a Nova G3 and it is a good chuck. I'll go pull the jaws off, clamp a rod in it and see what the runout is.

I'm back with some numbers.
Grizzly 12-20 Lathe, out of production. Runout at the back of the threads is 0.001+ on the spindle. Runout on the chuck registration face of the spindle is 0.001-. With Nova G3 chuck and it is an adaptor type, is 0.003+ with the jaws off and clamping a 0.500 rod measured just out from the chuck face. So considering all the places for tolerance error, not too bad unless you mount and remount a turning a lot. If that is the case then marking the turning and the chuck to reposition in the same place is a good practice. Or get proficient in mico elliptical turnings.

 

[Charlie_W]

The Nova G3 is a popular Chuck and regarded as being a very good middle of the road chuck. The one listed is not a bad deal with the extra jaws. Check to see if this one is a dedicated 1" or takes an adapter for other spindle sizes.
Many times you will find the basic chuck for about $100 on sale around the holidays.
I had a G3 and it was fine. Later sold it as I went with all OneWay chucks. The G3 does tighten counter clockwise....backwards to many folks.
Note: The Nova was the chuck I referred to as having issues with the screw in adapter and the chuck running true.
You can also buy many jaws as well as the pen jaws and all their jaws fit / interchange with all their chucks.
My personal preference is OneWay Chucks. The Talon is 3.5" diameter... the G3 about 3 3/8".

I also recommend your lathes being bolted to bench or stand. Be careful not to twist the bed if bench top is not flat.

 

[BeeAMaker]

When you check the chuck jaws how are you doing it? With removable jaws or without? Are you putting a steel rod in the chuck and measuring the runout on it? At what distance from the face? Or are you checking the outside of the jaws when they are closed tight or open without anything clamped? Any chance you have the jaws from the two chucks mixed up? Long shot question.

I have a Nova G3 and it is a good chuck. I'll go pull the jaws off, clamp a rod in it and see what the runout is.

I was checking the Jaws clamped shut, no stock.
With the jaws removed and a rod clamped in the center I get 5.1 thou.
This is the only 4" jaw I have so no chance of mixing the jaws.
The 2.5" chuck however is even worse, at 24 thou out.
I may have messed up my 2.5" for sure.

 

[Curly]

I amended my post #8 with measurements.

 

[More4dan]

3-5 thousandths would seem reasonable for a woodturning chuck. Most metal turning lathe chucks have run outs approaching +- 3 thousandths.

I would check the OD of the chuck to see if it is centered on the spindle too. If that checks, then start working through the jaws. You may be able to switch the jaws around and get a better "fit" with less error. A good cleaning of the internals may also help.

 

[monophoto]

I'm subscribing to this post because I want to see how Glenn's issue gets resolved. One of the reasons for that is that I also have the PSI 'Utility' chuck that he is reporting concerns about. I've had it for about 8 years, and I continue to be very happy with it.

But another reason is that this post illustrates a phenomenon that I find to be a fascinating reflection on human nature - 'problems' that we don't know exist because we can't see them. Then, something changes to allow us to see things with greater precision or clarity. The actual nature of the problem hasn't changed - just our ability to see (or in this case, measure).

I can't measure the runout on my chuck because I don't have a dial indicator. Frankly, I'm very happy with the performance of my chuck, but if I knew how much runout it actually has, that could change. So I've decided that the best solution for me is not buy a dial indicator.

Ignorance is bliss?

 

[whp4]

This is the only 4" jaw I have so no chance of mixing the jaws.

Ah, but each individual jaw has a specific place it is supposed to be in the chuck — usually they are numbered or otherwise marked so that you know where they go. The Nova G3 has a number from 1-4 stamped underneath each jaw piece, and also on the matching moving part in the chuck body. It is easy to assemble it with the jaws out of place, and it will still work, but it will not give you the best possible results. Easy thing to check and fix, though it may not be the only issue you are encountering, of course.




Sent from my iPad using Penturners.org mobile app

 

[Wildman]

Found a recall notice over at Woodnet this morning! Don't know if applies here might be worth a look.

https://forums.woodnet.net/showthread.php?tid=7345000

 

[JimB]

There could also be 'stuff' trapped under the jaws or in the mechanism of the chuck. Remove the jaws and Blow everything out with compressed air. You may also need to take the chuck apart and clean it.

 

[Woodchipper]

FWIW, I have a SuperNova G2 chuck and it performs quite well with no problems. Lathe is a Rikon 70-050VS which has been replaced with a newer model. This has been an interesting thread for me. Thanks to all who have contributed to it.

 

[monophoto]

You may also need to take the chuck apart and clean it.

Clean it? In a shop? That's approaching heresy.

 

[JimB]

You may also need to take the chuck apart and clean it.

Clean it? In a shop? That's approaching heresy.

I know, I know. I've never done it my self but I once saw someone else take a chuck apart to clean it when it wasn't working properly.

 

[Woodchipper]

Clean it on the kitchen table instead of the shop? Mama might not like sawdust in the soup. Reminds me to fire up the air compressor and blow out the chuck.

 

[JimB]

Clean it on the kitchen table instead of the shop? Mama might not like sawdust in the soup. Reminds me to fire up the air compressor and blow out the chuck.

I try to remember to use compressed air to blow it out every time I use the chuck. I turn a lot of green wood and I don't want all that moisture trapped in the chuck.

 

[Woodchipper]

JimB, good idea.

 

[KenB259]

...

 

[BeeAMaker]

Well. ....

I checked a few chucks last night with my group and mine being one of the worst (of course) they all seem to be within 0.004 to 0.007 run out. Theses were all lower end "PSI C-Type" style chucks.

Yes the numbered Jaws match the number on the body -
No the jaws are not mixed up with other chucks -
Thanks for posting to the recall, but NA on this subject. -

My 2.5" Barracuda chuck is the worst of the bunch. It is about 0.024 out and wobbles like a top. I also found that the 4 jaws do not come together evenly. 3 of the jaws will touch just slightly before the 4th one does. So, although I can not see any damage, I think I must have had a bad catch that bent something - Or I simply didn't notice/ignored the issue when the chuck and I were both new and only noticed it now because I am paying more attention to little details (i.e. OCD kicking in)

Once the piece is turned round does it really matter? Only if you re-chuck or reverse your piece. It can cause issues when making boxes with a lid for example. Also, the big 4" chuck causes bad vibration on my lathe which transmits to the tool rest and to the tool. It's especially annoying when making rings btw, which is why I purchased a ER32 Collet Chuck. And has proven handy for a variety of things.

I also think these lower end chucks are not turned on a machine. I think the parts are cast, then surfaced and then chromed.

I ordered the Nova G3 while it was on sale, will measure it and post the results of that chuck when it comes in. I am also going to try and balance my PSI 4" chuck and if successful, I will attempt the 2.5" chuck. I will post my process/results here and I recall seeing a video about it although I think it was for a metal lathe but should work the same.

Thanks for everyone's input and suggestions. I'll keep you up to date!

 

[monophoto]

Glenn -

Great feedback - thanks!

Yes the numbered Jaws match the number on the body -
No the jaws are not mixed up with other chucks -

Just out of curiosity, which jaws are you using? I have a PSI 'C' chuck with three jaw sets, #1, #2 and #3. The #1 set is a short pin design, and I can easily see how a catch could cause the pins to bend by a very slight amount resulting in increased runout. But I can't see how a catch would affect the #2 or #3 jaws. I guess what I'm trying to understand is whether the problem you have found is with the jaws or in the chuck body itself.

Others have noted that cleanliness is important, and dust collecting under the jaws can cause increased runout. There also the somewhatly controversial issue of spindle washers - a spindle washer that is not truly flat can also introduce runout.

Once the piece is turned round does it really matter? Only if you re-chuck or reverse your piece. It can cause issues when making boxes with a lid for example.

The objective is maintain the integrity of the axis of rotation. The lathe spindle establishes that axis, and we expect that the chuck will maintain that axis and transfer it to the workpiece. If the chuck isn't square on the spindle, if the jaws are misaligned on the chuck body, or if the workpiece is not held properly in the chuck, there can be a shift in that axis.

Earlier this year, I saw a demonstration on multi-axis turning by Barbara Dill. One of the more important takeaways from her presentation was to visualize the impact of the relationship between the axes. There is a distinct difference in the result of turning on multiple parallel axes, and multiple axes that intersect somewhere in space.

So if the shift in axis is lateral (parallel axis turning), then once the workpiece is round, the only issue is whether the circles that make up pieces that are expected to mate are all concentric. But if the shift in axis causes the axis the workpiece to intersect the axis of rotation of the spindle, the result will be wobble, and instead of a cylinder, you will make a cone.

Unfortunately, my experience is that you can get it near perfect, only to find several months later that the wood has moved.

 

[BeeAMaker]

Glenn -

Great feedback - thanks!

Yes the numbered Jaws match the number on the body -
No the jaws are not mixed up with other chucks -

Just out of curiosity, which jaws are you using? I have a PSI 'C' chuck with three jaw sets, #1, #2 and #3. The #1 set is a short pin design, and I can easily see how a catch could cause the pins to bend by a very slight amount resulting in increased runout. But I can't see how a catch would affect the #2 or #3 jaws. I guess what I'm trying to understand is whether the problem you have found is with the jaws or in the chuck body itself.

Others have noted that cleanliness is important, and dust collecting under the jaws can cause increased runout. There also the somewhatly controversial issue of spindle washers - a spindle washer that is not truly flat can also introduce runout.

Good points, I should have mentioned,

I scrolled the inner jaws out of the chuck, cleaned all the dust out and reinstalled in proper order.
The measurements were taken by inserting a 1/2" SS rod and clamping it in the center without any outer jaws attached. Place the dial indicator on the SS rod. Measuring the chuck with the jaws installed gave a wide range of differences between chucks. So I checked difference between opposite sets of jaws. On average the chucks were 0.01 difference.
No spindle washer is used.
The jaws used were the #2 I think, Just under 2" when fully closed. The 2.5" chuck are about 1" when closed.

I can't see these jaws getting bent either, but I can see the set screws getting "lifted" which can slightly damage the threads not allowing the jaw to seat properly. Or possible bending the thin parts of the scroll slightly askew, causing one jaw to lift when tightened. I was surprised to see how sloppy the inner jaws scroll into the body.

 

[BeeAMaker]

My new NOVA G3 chuck arrived today. I clean it up and spun it onto my 1" x 8 tpi spindle. By the Way, I found this in the instructions.
" This is not an insert style chuck. Cannot use an insert/adapter to change the threading."

I turned on the lath at lowest speed - no noticeable wobble like the others. I tightened a 1/2" SS rod int the center jaws, with no outer jaws attached. The run-out was an impressive 0.0019". I removed the 1/2" rod and put the 2" jaws on the chuck and checked the outside and inside of the jaw, again the run-out was around 0.0019 +/- 0.0005

Now, what to do with the other ones. I have an idea I will try this weekend and see if I can true them up a bit. I may leave the PSI 4" chuck as is, but the small 2.5" Barracuda is far enough out to bother me.

So as always, you get what you pay for.

 

[BeeAMaker]

opps double post

 

[Curly]

You. Can still use the chuck you have, they just aren't the first choice for remounting. Nothing says you can't turn a bowl with the cheap chuck and then reverse it on to the Nova with Cole jaws.

 

[BeeAMaker]

You. Can still use the chuck you have, they just aren't the first choice for remounting. Nothing says you can't turn a bowl with the cheap chuck and then reverse it on to the Nova with Cole jaws.

I know, it's not like they are now junk or anything but it's like cutting tomatoes with a dull knife when you know you have a sharp one setting right there. lol