Where did these scratches come from?

[putnamm]

(DISCLAIMER: I realize there is another topic on scratches in ebony. However, I don't know what kind of wood this is and if that poster's issues are specific to ebony. Apology if this is duplication.)

I found a large piece of this wood in my father's workshop yesterday and cut off a piece to turn as a pen blank. I don't know what kind of wood it is. When I was done with my usual finishing process, I saw that it had many little scratches in it. Can someone tell me where these scratches may have come from and what I can do to avoid them in the future?

Here is how I am currently finishing my pens:
- Turn the lathe to low speed (about 800 RPM).
- Sand to 400 grit, wiping dust off with a paper towel between each grit.
- With a paper towel, apply a coat of thin CA glue. Wipe dry with a clean part of the paper towel.
- With a paper towel, apply a coat of medium CA glue. Spray with two spritzes of activator. Wait five minutes. (Repeat to five coats.)
- Wet sand with Micro Mesh pads. (I usually wet, sand for about 30 seconds, rinse the pad, then sand another 30 seconds or so.) Wipe the water off with a clean paper towel between each pad.
- After the final Micro Mesh pad, wipe any remaining water off the blank.
- Finish with a touch of Renaissance wax. Turn up the lathe to maximum speed (about 3600 RPM). Buff wax with a clean paper towel.

So is there a step in there I am doing wrong? Or a step I should be doing in a different order? Or something that I'm leaving out? Thanks.

I've included a picture. You probably need to zoom in to see the scratches in detail.

 

[GaryMGg]

Each time you use a grit, you should also sand in the direction of the grain--in this case, with the lathe off, before moving to the next, finer grit.

 

[putnamm]

Each time you use a grit, you should also sand in the direction of the grain--in this case, with the lathe off, before moving to the next, finer grit.

Ok. Thanks for the tip, Gary.

 

[TimS124]

You can see the scratches while the blank is still on the lathe if you set your light to rake across the blank at a low angle so you're looking back towards the light. Get your head down at a low angle, opposite the light as well. There's a better description in old woodworking books on doing this (they use it to find marks left by hand planes).

I've also had good luck finding those pesky scratches with the magnifying safety glasses like these:

Buy FastCap Magnifying Bifocal Safety Glasses 2.5 Diopter at Woodcraft.com

You might want stronger or weaker magnification...they offer quite a range. The further I get into my 50's, the handier those things are becoming...

 

[Monty]

Looks like Texas Ebony that I have worked with in the past.

 

[Dale Allen]

2 things to check.
First, does the paper towel have something in it that would scratch the hardened CA
Some of them are not as 'soft' as you may think and there may also be something in there you don't want. The ones made by scott that are supposed to be extra absorbent are not a good choice.
Also, are you using tap water that may have a lot of calcium in it...i.e. hard water?
A plastic polish is another step I use that gets the last of the tiny scratched...novis products.

 

[thewishman]

Do you see scratches before applying the finish?

If you sand for 60 seconds with the Micro Mesh, the 1500 and 1800 will probably take all or most of your CA finish off. I use each grit wet about 10 seconds or so.

 

[TonyL]

Unless I missed an answer to your question in an earlier post, the scratches are likely to come from:

Tool marks (this is normal); I see what looks like some deep tool marks on the photo. They may also come from the sandpaper if not held flat against the barrel or you picked-up an edge or a crease.

Sandpaper; each grit is actually "scratching" the surface. You may have moved to the next finer grit before the grit that you are using has done its job.

Anything course (foreign matter) that finds its way in between the sand paper and the barrel. Same can happen with plastic polish and wax when being applied.

Your polish. I have used some polishes that many use as the last step that produced courser scratches than I was trying to remove. It may be how I am using it or maybe I achieved a finish that didn't need the polish.

When I talk to the folks at Maguire's who I am sure know more about finishing that I do, they all tell me the same thing (not that they are correct, and not that it is self-serving for them to say so): "There is no such thing as scratch-free, there are only scratches that you can't see with the "naked" eye or under varying degrees of magnification."

I am sure that my "scratch-free" finish using a 10x loop will look like a the surface of the moon under greater magnification.

I am glad that you posted the question. Your question, as well as how to remove them comprised the majority of my question for my first 3 or 4 months of turning. Maybe someone has an idea that I have not heard of.

After you decide on your sanding process, I would be happy to send you 8 to 12 polishes that I have tried - an ounce or two each. Many think this is an act of generosity (which I guess that is nor entirely false), but I really don't use many of them any more, and you might find on that works for you. Just PM your address if you want to try some; I will even pay for shipping. I rather they be used or tried them thrown away. All are within their shelf-life.

Only judging from the photo, I would say that the volume and depth of the scratches are from your tool (carbide, HSS, etc.), and "improper" sanding. You are going to continue to get great advice here. I just wanted to attempt to answer your question. I remember, I may be wrong. .

 

[putnamm]

Each time you use a grit, you should also sand in the direction of the grain--in this case, with the lathe off, before moving to the next, finer grit.

Gary, are you referring only to the sandpaper that I use prior to applying the CA? Or do I need to sand with the grain with all of the Micro Mesh pads?

Thanks.

Mark

 

[putnamm]

You can see the scratches while the blank is still on the lathe if you set your light to rake across the blank at a low angle so you're looking back towards the light. Get your head down at a low angle, opposite the light as well. There's a better description in old woodworking books on doing this (they use it to find marks left by hand planes).

I've also had good luck finding those pesky scratches with the magnifying safety glasses like these:

Buy FastCap Magnifying Bifocal Safety Glasses 2.5 Diopter at Woodcraft.com

You might want stronger or weaker magnification...they offer quite a range. The further I get into my 50's, the handier those things are becoming...

Thanks. I actually took that photo under a high magnification fluorescent drafters lamp that is attached to my workbench. It works great.

 

[putnamm]

2 things to check.
First, does the paper towel have something in it that would scratch the hardened CA
Some of them are not as 'soft' as you may think and there may also be something in there you don't want. The ones made by scott that are supposed to be extra absorbent are not a good choice.
Also, are you using tap water that may have a lot of calcium in it...i.e. hard water?
A plastic polish is another step I use that gets the last of the tiny scratched...novis products.

Thanks. I am using the blue shop towels that come on a roll, produced by Scott, I think. The water is coming out of a spigot in the shop and is not softened.

 

[putnamm]

Unless I missed an answer to your question in an earlier post, the scratches are likely to come from:

Tool marks (this is normal); I see what looks like some deep tool marks on the photo. They may also come from the sandpaper if not held flat against the barrel or you picked-up an edge or a crease.

Sandpaper; each grit is actually "scratching" the surface. You may have moved to the next finer grit before the grit that you are using has done its job.

Anything course (foreign matter) that finds its way in between the sand paper and the barrel. Same can happen with plastic polish and wax when being applied.

Your polish. I have used some polishes that many use as the last step that produced courser scratches than I was trying to remove. It may be how I am using it or maybe I achieved a finish that didn't need the polish.

When I talk to the folks at Maguire's who I am sure know more about finishing that I do, they all tell me the same thing (not that they are correct, and not that it is self-serving for them to say so): "There is no such thing as scratch-free, there are only scratches that you can't see with the "naked" eye or under varying degrees of magnification."

I am sure that my "scratch-free" finish using a 10x loop will look like a the surface of the moon under greater magnification.

I am glad that you posted the question. Your question, as well as how to remove them comprised the majority of my question for my first 3 or 4 months of turning. Maybe someone has an idea that I have not heard of.

After you decide on your sanding process, I would be happy to send you 8 to 12 polishes that I have tried - an ounce or two each. Many think this is an act of generosity (which I guess that is nor entirely false), but I really don't use many of them any more, and you might find on that works for you. Just PM your address if you want to try some; I will even pay for shipping. I rather they be used or tried them thrown away. All are within their shelf-life.

Only judging from the photo, I would say that the volume and depth of the scratches are from your tool (carbide, HSS, etc.), and "improper" sanding. You are going to continue to get great advice here. I just wanted to attempt to answer your question. I remember, I may be wrong. .

Thanks, Tony. How can you tell what are tool marks? I sharpeny tools myself, so it's entirely possible they are not perfectly sharpened. I just can't tell what are tool marks and what are scratches.

 

[TonyL]

Possible tool marks

Unless I missed an answer to your question in an earlier post, the scratches are likely to come from:

Tool marks (this is normal); I see what looks like some deep tool marks on the photo. They may also come from the sandpaper if not held flat against the barrel or you picked-up an edge or a crease.

Sandpaper; each grit is actually "scratching" the surface. You may have moved to the next finer grit before the grit that you are using has done its job.

Anything course (foreign matter) that finds its way in between the sand paper and the barrel. Same can happen with plastic polish and wax when being applied.


Your polish. I have used some polishes that many use as the last step that produced courser scratches than I was trying to remove. It may be how I am using it or maybe I achieved a finish that didn't need the polish.

When I talk to the folks at Maguire's who I am sure know more about finishing that I do, they all tell me the same thing (not that they are correct, and not that it is self-serving for them to say so): "There is no such thing as scratch-free, there are only scratches that you can't see with the "naked" eye or under varying degrees of magnification."

I am sure that my "scratch-free" finish using a 10x loop will look like a the surface of the moon under greater magnification.

I am glad that you posted the question. Your question, as well as how to remove them comprised the majority of my question for my first 3 or 4 months of turning. Maybe someone has an idea that I have not heard of.

After you decide on your sanding process, I would be happy to send you 8 to 12 polishes that I have tried - an ounce or two each. Many think this is an act of generosity (which I guess that is nor entirely false), but I really don't use many of them any more, and you might find on that works for you. Just PM your address if you want to try some; I will even pay for shipping. I rather they be used or tried them thrown away. All are within their shelf-life.

Only judging from the photo, I would say that the volume and depth of the scratches are from your tool (carbide, HSS, etc.), and "improper" sanding. You are going to continue to get great advice here. I just wanted to attempt to answer your question. I remember, I may be wrong. .

Thanks, Tony. How can you tell what are tool marks? I sharpeny tools myself, so it's entirely possible they are not perfectly sharpened. I just can't tell what are tool marks and what are scratches.

The scratches about an inch up from your thumb on the bottom right side of the barrel appear to be from the tool given their depth (of the scratches). They may not be. I am merely relating what I see to what I experienced when I had produced those marks - less frequently now, but I still do. I do produce them much less now that I use HSS and sharpen frequently.

Having said all that I just did, I know folks that use carbide and/or HSS and produce less scratches and better finishes than I do. I am just comparing your photo to what I have personally experienced on my own work and what I determined the source of the scratches to be.

I improved the most when I closely examined my work after each step. For example, I am in the minority of turners that do not sand lengthwise. I am either doing it incorrectly or whatever...but after examining my work, I discovered that after I sanded that way, my finish do not improve. I really think there are some inexorable fundamentals, and just as many personal variables that affect an outcome - as always, just my experience (which isn't very long compared to others) and opinion/theory.

Given your intention to improve your finish and the advice from the experienced turners here, you will find the right combination that works for you. As I just said, I own over a dozen polishes. I just bought another one early this week after seeing it work in-person, at another very experienced turners home. I liked it, but not as much as what I first started using. I would "blame" it just as much on me as on the polish, but I love experimenting and the search for the "flawless" finish with the least amount of sanding.

 

[Leatherman1998]

Is your micro mesh fresh and clean? Also, what quality sandpaper are you using? Using low quality hardware stuff doesn't work as good as higher quality brands. I used stuff from ace hardware and Menard's for a couple years, never got results like I wanted. I switched to Blue Flex from Vince's Wooden Wonders. Not saying it's the best out there but it has given me great results. Sometime I will order Norton XXX paper. I've heard that it works very well.

 

[Mike8850]

Not sure how coarse of sand paper you start with but I start at 220 and stop at 600 grit. As others have said I also sand length wise with the lathe off. The scratches from lower grit paper can be a real pain to get out.
Mike

 

[Wingdoctor]

To me, the marks I see that are radial at a slight angle were probably from a beginning sanding operation that caught an edge of the sanding material. I used to re-blue guns and there is much polishing in the preparation process. Each grit used must be a an opposite angle, 90 degrees is ideal, to the previous grit. After the first grit that removes the tooling marks, each finer grit is only removing the marks from the previous grit. If the grits are all in the same direction you only round over the sanding marks and create waves. On pens each grit should be sanded radially and then lengthwise to even out the marks. Application of a CA finish will not fill in the sanding marks if they are wide and the MM is flexible and just follows the grooves in the finish. Make sure you have the surface dead even before you use the MM pads and then finish with a buffing wheel, I use the Beall, but any plastic polish will improve the shine. I use the craft foam pads to apply CA and it is easier to get a smooth application, for me, than using paper towels.

 

[allmaclean]

Gary, are you referring only to the sandpaper that I use prior to applying the CA? Or do I need to sand with the grain with all of the Micro Mesh pads?

Thanks.

Mark

You should sand with the grain on paper and micromesh. Turn lathe off, sand with the grain, wipe clean, then repeat with the next finer.

 

[michael j flett]

I also started using can for my finish but now I mix it with boiled linseed oil, I find it much easier and requires much less sanding and gives a glass like finish all you need is a little patience. If you need help just ask I'm happy to let you know how I do it.
Email me if you like.
mjfcww@gmail.com

 

[putnamm]

On pens each grit should be sanded radially and then lengthwise to even out the marks.

You'll have to forgive my constant questions. I usually have to ask people to talk slowly and use small words...

When you write, "each grit should be sanded radially" what does that mean? I'm picturing the pen on the lathe, running at low speed. Do you mean to move the sandpaper in circular ("radial") motions around the blank? Or something else?

Thanks.

-Mark

 

[BKelley]

Hi,
It's hard to tell if the scratches are in the wood before the finish was applied or if they are on the finish its self. There is one method of finish that has not been mentioned that may or may not work on CA. Flame finishing might work on CA, I know it works on acrylics. While I have never used it on pens, I have used it on the edges of plexi-glass with great success.
After CA is applied and sanded thru 7000 grit wet/dry paper, use propane torch very carefully. Too much heat will blister finish and too little won't bring out gloss. Other turners might be more knowledgeable and be able to help more.

BKelley

 

[Wingdoctor]

With the pen blank turning in the lathe the sanding will be radial, around the blank at right angles to the length. Sand with the lathe on then turn the lathe off and sand lengthwise. Repeat for each grit. The deep groves near the bottom of the black in your picture appear to be at an angle to the length. You cannot make those grooves with the lathe turning at any significant speed. They were probable done with the lathe off.