What brand of CA? Mixing CA's?

[BCnabe]

I'm curious to know what brand of CA people are using for your finish.

I originally started with Titebond because that's what the local Woodcraft had.

When pen orders picked up I wanted to buy larger bottles so I tried Stick Fast (thin and medium). It seemed to work okay but I saw some comments about Stick Fast "shattering". I had a pen do that so I decided to try the medium EZ-Bond.

I'm not sure if it's just me but it seems like I can't get the EZ-Bond to a high gloss finish like I used to with the other brands.

What I've been doing is using a few coats of the thin Stick Fast to seal the wood and then switching to the EZ-Bond medium for the final coats. The reason was that I was trying to use up the thin Stick Fast and I didn't have any thin EZ-Bond.

I have a bottle on thin EZ Bond on order. I'm going to try a comparison on the same piece of wood using EZ Bond thin and medium on one half and then thin Stick Fast / medium EZ Bond on the other half to see if I can tell a difference.

Has anyone else found a difference in shiny-ness from one brand to another? Has anyone used different brands of CA on the same pen?

Has anyone had issues with EZ Bond?

 

[edstreet]

I can provide photo's and detail but once I get home on my computer.

 

[Monty]

Been using EZ Bond for 10+ years with no problems.

 

[Skie_M]

Harbor Freight Tools house brand Super Glue (liquid) ... I don't use the gel for finish.



Thinking about using gel for some glue-ups, though, the thin liquid likes to flow pretty fast and get on my fingers when it can, and doesn't seem to bond some types of wood very quickly because it soaks right into the wood fibres...

 

[edstreet]

I'm curious to know what brand of CA people are using for your finish.

I originally started with Titebond because that's what the local Woodcraft had.

When pen orders picked up I wanted to buy larger bottles so I tried Stick Fast (thin and medium). It seemed to work okay but I saw some comments about Stick Fast "shattering". I had a pen do that so I decided to try the medium EZ-Bond.

I'm not sure if it's just me but it seems like I can't get the EZ-Bond to a high gloss finish like I used to with the other brands.

What I've been doing is using a few coats of the thin Stick Fast to seal the wood and then switching to the EZ-Bond medium for the final coats. The reason was that I was trying to use up the thin Stick Fast and I didn't have any thin EZ-Bond.

I have a bottle on thin EZ Bond on order. I'm going to try a comparison on the same piece of wood using EZ Bond thin and medium on one half and then thin Stick Fast / medium EZ Bond on the other half to see if I can tell a difference.

Has anyone else found a difference in shiny-ness from one brand to another? Has anyone used different brands of CA on the same pen?

Has anyone had issues with EZ Bond?

Ok.

For a good lowdown on CA see my article here. Clay pen blanks CA article I mostly focus on accelerators in the article and I hope that it is an eye opener.

The majority of 'CA' glue on the market is Ethyl-2-Cyanoacrylate (ECA), other flavors are available to such as MCA (Methyl), BCA (Butyl), OCA (Octyl) and several others.

In it's truest form there is one set viscosity however additives are used to change that and thus we have thin, medium, thick, extra-thick, gel and a slew of other labels. The 'medium', or 'thick', typically anything non-'thin' will have additives, such as Poly Methyl Methacrylate (PMMA) which is acrylic glass, a.k.a. Plexiglas, Acrylite, Lucite. (READ the msds to find out what they are using!!!!) Also products such as BSI super-gold use Methoyxethyl Cyanoacrylate which is medical grade and cures at a slower temperature, more flexible and deeper finish.


The old form of applying a CA finish was derived from using products such as stick-fast which has a very long, colorful history of doing nasty things such as cracking. I have detailed many problems with that and why it happens. It's not rocket science or a black art. It's very basic stuff. The key is when you look at the accelerator used and when you look at the polymerization rate of the CA in question. The 'old form' being apply many dozen super super thin layers of CA and allow to polymerize, in fact you can search the archives here and see where many have used 40+ layers of CA as a badge of honor. Having said that if you look at the different types of CA composition, additives and the accelerators used you can begin to see how by using different CA formulas (brands) your finishing method can and will vary as to which one is 'best'. So yes your finish method is highly subjective to what you are using.


As for what 'Brand' is 'BEST' I would have to urge you to look at what your needs are and the scope of how you will be using it, as the results can and will change drastically.

Has anyone else found a difference in shiny-ness from one brand to another

Yes the answer is clearly YES, Y. E. S. The answer is derived from my above novel post on different makeup of the CA used. The key and secret lies in the additives used. Is brand X compatible with brand Y? Perhaps, depending on how polymerized the lower layer is may play a key role in that. When I first switched to BSI Super-Gold nearly 10 years ago I discovered there was a deep gloss holographic effect that was seen with the BLO + CA usage, needless to say my use of BLO after that was extinct.

Has anyone had issues with EZ Bond

You will find many here that swear by EZ Bond. It is ECA plain and simple. There are some problems with ECA and yes there have been some reported problems with EZ Bond but remember this. My Uncle was busted numerous times (10+ ish?) on DUI charges, he never killed anyone while driving drunk. That does not mean it's safe or the like, that just means he never had that problem, does not mean the problem does not exist. To think otherwise is fallacy logic.

Long story short you can have good results with EZ-Bond, your mileage may (and will) vary depending on your method used but you can and *SHOULD* adapt to match the product you are using.

 

[edstreet]

P.S. Mercury also has a range of products available as well. One of them includes Methoyxethyl. Again check additives for what is used in addition.

 

[robertkulp]

You might consider me biased since I sell CA from Mercury Adhesives, but I began using it a few years ago since I got far better results compare to other brands. I've also had a number of customers switch from EZ-Bond (as well as other brands). They've said that they use less CA from Mercury and get a much higher gloss in less time.

The reason I began selling it was because I found that it worked better for me with my own pens and there weren't any other pen suppliers carrying it.

 

[zener]

@edstreet Thanks for the informative post! Do you have an opinion on Star Bond CA glue (just the glue, not the accelerator)? I just ordered a bunch of the stuff and now I'm not sure if it's any good. It's one of the only CA brands I've seen that actually markets woodturning finishing as one of the uses for their glue. They have regular, odorless, and flexible types

 

[BCnabe]

You might consider me biased since I sell CA from Mercury Adhesives, but I began using it a few years ago since I got far better results compare to other brands. I've also had a number of customers switch from EZ-Bond (as well as other brands). They've said that they use less CA from Mercury and get a much higher gloss in less time.

The reason I began selling it was because I found that it worked better for me with my own pens and there weren't any other pen suppliers carrying it.

Robert,

Do the part numbers indicate the CPS (viscosity)? Thin flex M20FT = 20cps? Medium flex M300FM = 300cps?

 

[edstreet]

@edstreet Thanks for the informative post! Do you have an opinion on Star Bond CA glue (just the glue, not the accelerator)? I just ordered a bunch of the stuff and now I'm not sure if it's any good. It's one of the only CA brands I've seen that actually markets woodturning finishing as one of the uses for their glue. They have regular, odorless, and flexible types

Marketing is one thing that should not be looked at. In fact it should sometimes throw red flags. The msds is not easily obtained from them and you will have to email to ask for it.

You might consider me biased since I sell CA from Mercury Adhesives, but I began using it a few years ago since I got far better results compare to other brands. I've also had a number of customers switch from EZ-Bond (as well as other brands). They've said that they use less CA from Mercury and get a much higher gloss in less time.

The reason I began selling it was because I found that it worked better for me with my own pens and there weren't any other pen suppliers carrying it.

Robert,

Do the part numbers indicate the CPS (viscosity)? Thin flex M20FT = 20cps? Medium flex M300FM = 300cps?

correct, if you pull the msds for the M1100G http://www.mercuryadhesives.com/msds/MSDS_M5T_M300M_M1100G.pdf it shows the CPS is 1,100.

If you pull the msds for the M5T http://mercuryadhesives.com/msds/MSDS_M5T.pdf it shows the CPS is 5.

In my article https://www.claypenblanks.com/what-is-polymer-clay/ca-finishing-101.html I posted a chart showing CPS listings. water is 1-3, 60 weight motor oil is 1,000-2,000. Maple syrup/30 weight motor oil is 150-200.

 

[BCnabe]

Just in case anyone is interested, here's what I found with different brands and their viscosity for thin and medium CA. As you can see "thin" and "medium" can vary quite a bit from brand to brand.

EZ-Bond
- Thin - 5cps
- Thin (orange label) - 50cps
- Medium (teal label) - 100cps
- Medium (green label) - 300cps

Titebond
- Thin - 5cps
- Medium - 120cps

Stick Fast
- Thin - 20cps
- Medium - 300cps

Star Bond
- Thin - 2cps
- Medium Thin - 40cps
- Medium - 150cps
- Medium Thick - 600cps

Satellite City
- Thin - 3cps
- Medium - 200-300cps

Mercury
- Thin - 20cps
- Medium - 300cps

 

[edstreet]

Just in case anyone is interested, here's what I found with different brands and their viscosity for thin and medium CA. As you can see "thin" and "medium" can vary quite a bit from brand to brand.

EZ-Bond
- Thin - 5cps
- Thin (orange label) - 50cps
- Medium (teal label) - 100cps
- Medium (green label) - 300cps

Titebond
- Thin - 5cps
- Medium - 120cps

Stick Fast
- Thin - 20cps
- Medium - 300cps

Star Bond
- Thin - 2cps
- Medium Thin - 40cps
- Medium - 150cps
- Medium Thick - 600cps

Satellite City
- Thin - 3cps
- Medium - 200-300cps

Mercury
- Thin - 20cps
- Medium - 300cps

Correct, the 'thin' by itself is 1-5 cps and that is with nothing, pure CA. The rest of the stuff is with additives. Now the concern and question you need to be asking is *WHAT* additives are used and how does that affect your finish and your finishing process.

What you will be finding is most of the additive is plexiglas as I previously mentioned. The amount varies for the thicker products. Also your lathe speed, RPM, makes a HUGE difference in how that product handles.

 

[jttheclockman]

To me the best CA I have found and use and will continue to use with no problems with finishing and also bonding(people forget this part too) is Satellite City. Not sure how the price stacks but up do not care. If you find a product that works that is what you stick with or else you keep chasing that elusive dream glue. There is a ton of valuable information on their site here which I have linked to many times. It answers many of the basic questions. Getting into all that technical stuff and scientific answers means nothing. You have people here that have tried CA glue of certain brands and have success or failures and it is well documented here. Just do some searching and you can read the many many threads about this subject. Sometimes it comes down to a matter of experimenting for yourself. There are many more factors that go into the use of CA than just the glue itself. How it is applied, and there are a ton of ways this has been done over the years. The accelerator used or not used and you need one that is made specifically for the glue in question. How many coats, the drying time, the temp, the humidity and so on and so on and so on. Good luck in your quest.

CA Glue from Satellite City Instant Glues- Cyanoacrylate Glue

 

[robertkulp]

Robert,

Do the part numbers indicate the CPS (viscosity)? Thin flex M20FT = 20cps? Medium flex M300FM = 300cps?

Yes. The first "M" is for Mercury and the viscosity follows. The trailing letters indicate the type of CA, Thin, Medium, Gel (Thick), Flex, etc.

So, M5T = 5cps Thin, M300FM = 300cps Flex Medium, etc.

 

[zener]

Marketing is one thing that should not be looked at. In fact it should sometimes throw red flags. The msds is not easily obtained from them and you will have to email to ask for it.

Yeah, I don't typically care for marketing. What makes me suspicious in this particular case is that there are companies that have to know that people are using their CA for finishing, yet they never list it as a potential use which makes me wonder if they don't want to endorse it because their product isn't entirely suitable for that purpose. There could be a million reasons though, in fairness. Thanks for the advice anyway, I emailed Star Bond, we'll see if they're willing to oblige!

 

[robertkulp]

...
Mercury
- Thin - 20cps
- Medium - 300cps

The above is true for Mercury's Flex CA. I worked with their engineers on this new product line and it's designed specifically for woodworking. Of course, there are a lot of other uses too, but woodworking and pen finishing (& gluing tubes) was the initial focus.

Any rate, their other viscosities are as follows...

M5T = Thin, 5cps
M300M = Medium, 300cps
M1100G = Thick, 1100cps
M20FT = Flex Thin, 20cps
M300FM = Flex Medium, 300cps
M100XF = High Performance (Thin/Med), 100cps
M100F = Odorless Thin/Med, 100cps
M1000F = Odorless Thick, 1000cps

As you can see from this and the specs from other manufacturers, there is a wide range of what is called Thin, Medium, etc. As Ed has pointed out, the MSDS information from the various manufacturers can yield a wealth of information regarding the ingredients. I'm with jttheclockman though... find what works for you and stick with it.

 

[BCnabe]

...
Mercury
- Thin - 20cps
- Medium - 300cps

The above is true for Mercury's Flex CA. I worked with their engineers on this new product line and it's designed specifically for woodworking. Of course, there are a lot of other uses too, but woodworking and pen finishing (& gluing tubes) was the initial focus.

Any rate, their other viscosities are as follows...

M5T = Thin, 5cps
M300M = Medium, 300cps
M1100G = Thick, 1100cps
M20FT = Flex Thin, 20cps
M300FM = Flex Medium, 300cps
M100XF = High Performance (Thin/Med), 100cps
M100F = Odorless Thin/Med, 100cps
M1000F = Odorless Thick, 1000cps

As you can see from this and the specs from other manufacturers, there is a wide range of what is called Thin, Medium, etc. As Ed has pointed out, the MSDS information from the various manufacturers can yield a wealth of information regarding the ingredients. I'm with jttheclockman though... find what works for you and stick with it.

One of the things I like about the EZ-Bond was their 50cps (orange label). I found it easier to get a smooth surface in comparison to thicker ca's.

I emailed Mercury and asked about mixing some thin with the medium to get something around 100cps. Here was their response: "If you want to mix the M20FT and the M300FM to get a different viscosity, you should be fine. The only difference in those formula's are the viscosities."

 

[robertkulp]

One of the things I like about the EZ-Bond was their 50cps (orange label). I found it easier to get a smooth surface in comparison to thicker ca's.

I emailed Mercury and asked about mixing some thin with the medium to get something around 100cps. Here was their response: "If you want to mix the M20FT and the M300FM to get a different viscosity, you should be fine. The only difference in those formula's are the viscosities."

As long as you're mixing CA of the same type from the same manufacturer, you should be fine. Mixing the M20FT Flex Thin with the M300M Regular Medium is not recommended. Neither is mixing one brand with another.

But, as Eric with Mercury Adhesives stated, M20FT & M300FM are the same formulation, but the M300FM has more of the thickening agent than the M20FM. Because of that, they are compatible for mixing.

This should be the case with CA from other manufacturers, too. You just need to be careful to keep your ingredients within the same family. For example, don't mix BSI's Insta-Cure with their Super-Gold+. You can mix Insta-Cure with Insta-Cure+ and Super-Gold with Super-Gold+, but not across families. By the way, those are also great for gluing tubes and finishing pens.

 

[Warren White]

The CA I use...

... is FastCap 2P-10. I have always had excellent results with it.

I don't see any of the specs on the bottle. Can anyone enlighten me?

 

[robertkulp]

... is FastCap 2P-10. I have always had excellent results with it.

I don't see any of the specs on the bottle. Can anyone enlighten me?

Fastcap has their MSDS information with their products at https://www.fastcap.com/estore/pc/2P-10-Adhesive-c48.htm

 

[edstreet]

2P10 is ECA based and they fail to list any other ingredients.

 

[BCnabe]

... is FastCap 2P-10. I have always had excellent results with it.

I don't see any of the specs on the bottle. Can anyone enlighten me?

Fastcap has their MSDS information with their products at https://www.fastcap.com/estore/pc/2P-10-Adhesive-c48.htm

click on the "tech specs" tab and there's a MSDS link.

 

[robertkulp]

Let's throw a monkey wrench into this whole CA discussion... What about accelerator? While CA is ethyl-2-cyanoacrolate along with various additives, the ingredients in accelerator/activator varies widely. Again, this is where the MSDS (yes, I know it's just SDS now, but old habits are hard to break) comes in handy.

Check out the ingredient listings for the various accelerator products and you'll find that many are made from Acetone. Yes, acetone that is also a solvent for CA. But, it also causes a very aggressive pH shift which causes CA to polymerize. Unfortunately, it can be too aggressive and is one of the contributing factors to Stick-Fast's problem with "shattered glass". To make it even more interesting, some manufacturers use different formulations for their aerosol vs. spray pump bottles.

Luckily, some manufactures, such as Satellite City, provide details with their product names and descriptions that indicate how aggressive their accelerator is. For example, their NCS Hot is very aggressive and should not be used for finishing. NCF Quick or Spray'N'Cure is more appropriate for getting a crystal clear finish.

Other manufacturers, such as Mercury Adhesives and BSI, use the same ingredients for both their spray pump and aerosol varieties. On the other hand, Stick-Fast uses Acetone with their aerosol and Naptha with their spray pump.

Again, the MSDS is very valuable to determine what you want.

 

[edstreet]

Accelerator I covered mostly in my article post. It generally derives from 1 of a few ingredients. Acetone, Heptane and Naphtha being the predominately used. However any item with a neutral to slightly alkaline PH level can be used. I.e. you can even use BAKING SODA but you will get a very hot very fast polymerization.

 

[TonyL]

I just got off the phone with Gary of Solarez (for close to a half hours) and I am going to give two of their products a try. I will report the result if any one is interested.

 

[jttheclockman]

I just got off the phone with Gary of Solarez (for close to a half hours) and I am going to give two of their products a try. I will report the result if any one is interested.

Tony or anyone else if you do, set up a separate thread just for that system and maybe we can get it put in the library somehow or pinned so that people can always go back to it.

Are you going to do a basic coating over wood?? I would like to find if we can get the proper product for doing things such as casting watch parts pens or carbon fiber pens and things of that nature. We all know about epoxies, casting resins and alumilite but there is a combination of products from them that can jump in here as well. That is what I am trying to do some reading on.
That is why I brought up the question about layering and build up. What is involved if trying this.

Another thing for testing would be for blanks that are a combination acrylic and wood such as worthless wood blanks. Does the product have different effects on different materials and maybe they have different products to handle this. Cue makers are close to what we do but we take it a bit further and the medium we use is sometimes totally different than what they use.

This could be interesting. We are always looking for the next great finishing technique.

 

[edstreet]

Solarez is PR with a UV cure system mixed with it. So you have the same problems with PR which is BRITTLE and that is a very bad thing. I have some out for delivery today and will be testing it to see how it works on pens. Destructive testing and all that

polyester resin 50-70%, styrene 25-35%, hydroxy-cyclohexyl-phenyl-ketone < 1%, acrylic acid < 0.3%

 

[TonyL]

I am sure Ed's will be conducted more scientifically and with more controls in place than anything that I care to attempt.

I bought these per Gary's recommendations for wood, acrylic and mixed material blanks:

Fly Tying UV Curing Resin - Ultra Thin
Vinyl Ester UV-Cure Grain Sealer - Wahoo International, Inc
UV Cure Flashlight - High Output - Wahoo International, Inc

For whatever I spent, if it doesn't work. I will use it on my guitars and flies.

I have used EZ Bond, Mercury, BSI, Satellite City, and a bunch of no-name CA glues from Hobby Lobby. I have not been abound to discern any difference in hardness, durability, and finish. Of course, my only testing was using the pens to write with. I have pens in my draw that are 2.5 years old and I haven't observed any changes. I am sure there are gross differences/changes, I just can't see any. I have noticed differences in how they apply, but nothing that I found difficult to get used to after the first 2 swipes. I thought this would be fun to try.

I am looking forward to Ed's evaluation.

 

[BCnabe]

I just got off the phone with Gary of Solarez (for close to a half hours) and I am going to give two of their products a try. I will report the result if any one is interested.

I was reading up on some of that also. I'd be very intrigued to see what you find out and how you like it.

 

[jttheclockman]

Thanks Tony. Over the winter I will do some testing also. Always looking for new things. As with CA and what you mentioned it is just a matter of what you get used to. Is one better than another that is an open ended debate you can have till the cows come home and you can throw all the scientific mumble jumble at it and it mean nothing. Everyone does a finish differently. You do not have a controlled test lab for each brand with each pen subjected to the same obstacles so it is a crap shoot. We all report our own findings and it is up to the individual to keep an open mind and try for themselves and make a decision. But it is always good to read what others are trying and their findings. Just add them to the bin of knowledge.

 

[farmer]

Brittle

Solarez is PR with a UV cure system mixed with it. So you have the same problems with PR which is BRITTLE and that is a very bad thing. I have some out for delivery today and will be testing it to see how it works on pens. Destructive testing and all that

polyester resin 50-70%, styrene 25-35%, hydroxy-cyclohexyl-phenyl-ketone < 1%, acrylic acid < 0.3%

Had a cue maker do Solarez UV finish on a piece of wood .
Then beat the wood with angle Iron , the finish dented but didn't shatter ..
the link to that thread I posted above ..

 

[efrulla]

I seem to have decent luck with the stuff from Hobby Lobby. Was curious if would work so I sacrificed a maple blank and was happy with the results. Now I do not have to order CA on-line. Your mileage may vary

 

[robertkulp]

Here's a piece of walnut that I turned and finished with Mercury's Flex CA. For testing a few months ago, I then froze it, threw it in boiling water, and then whacked it with the sledge hammer. Aside from the impact point, there isn't any other damage.

 

[zener]

Got info on a few of the Star Bond CAs:

EM-02 (Very Thin)
Ethyl 2-Cyanoacrylate >95%
Poly Methyl Methacrylate 1-5%
Hydroquinone >0.2%

EM-40 (Medium Thin)
Ethyl 2-Cyanoacrylate >90%
Poly Methyl Methacrylate 8-10%
Hydroquinone >0.2%

N/O-05 (Thin Odorless)
Methoxyethyl Cyanoacrylate >99%
Hydroquinone >0.2%

 

[edstreet]

Note the methoxyethyl in the odorless. That's the good stuff. Does not cause or lead to allergic responses, it's medical grade and low temp.

 

[edstreet]

Hydroquinone is a stabilizer and keeps the CA in liquid form. The volume used affects how much higher ambient temp can affect the product, more there is the more it takes to swing that PH level to start polymerization.

 

[edstreet]

PMMA is the liquid plexiglas and the more they add the thicker the product. 1-5% yields very thin while 8-10% yields medium. I hope all of this is sinking in and making sense to everyone now.

 

[zener]

Thank you, it is sinking in and making sense for me! I have learned a lot from this.

On a related note, apparently Star Bond odorless is "Available in 2 ounce, 16 ounce, and 44 lb"

 

[edstreet]

ECA had a shelf life of approx 6 months. Methoxyethyl is around 2 1/2 years.

 

[zener]

Whoa, that's a lot better. I'm definitely going to start using Methoxyethyl