Giving up on CA BLO, what else, HELP, totally frustrated.

[programmergeek]

I have tried a ca/blo finish on about 14 pens now and I can't get it right. It takes me like an hour+ to do one and the finish is nice but still has some streeks, or if I use enought plastic polish to take the streeks out I alwas ware through an area. eventualy I get it ok but the road to get there is topainful and not making this fun at all.

I have a pen order now and I can't fill it because I can't get the finish right.

Anyhow what is the next best finish? Laquire? I don't care what it costs or what equipnment I need I just need consistant results. Maybe I am being to picky withthe ca/blo finish.

 

[GaryMGg]

A couple of mostly random thoughts because I don't know any of the details about what you've already tried and what your physical environment is like.
Value this advice based on what you paid for it and trust but verify!

1. Find and read Russ Fairfield's CA finish tutorial
2. Test his methods EXACTLY as he wrote them
3. Look at how good (or not) your results are when following his method
4. Practice on scrap made of the wood you're using for your pen but it doesn't have to be a pen -- just a round, smooth barrel.
5. Once you've satisfied yourself that you're pretty close to where you want to be, tweak his method BUT only change one thing at a time.

It's like an experiment, if you change more than one thing, you don't know which change caused an improvement or detracted from what you had prior.

CA should be fresh; I find that Manny sells the best CA at the best prices.
Humidity in the shop can impact the quality of your finish.
Oily woods react differently than other woods.
For me, the Aerosol accelerator is a good addition to my CA arsenal.

I sand with MicroMesh going all the way thru each grit before I start putting on the CA. Once I've got a good CA build up, I wet sand with MicroMesh again (usually starting no lower than 320) using a light touch.
I finish with plastic polish which I got from Mike and Linda Kennedy (MLK Woodworking).

Too heavy a touch can overheat your CA finish and ruin it which requires sanding back to the blank and starting again. Or, at least, that's what I've heard :biggrin: :wink:

Hope that's useful,
G

 

[Seer]

I hated the CA/BLO finish until I watched videos of how it was done and followed exactly now I can do one with no problems er well an occasional one but nothing like when I first started. Now it is second nature to me.

 

[Texatdurango]

If I knew where you were close by I would say come on over and lets play around with CA finishes but since you don't say where you live, I could only suggest looking up someone close to you and talking them into helping you out.

I have found that doing a CA finish is SO much easier when you are standing right there with someone watching then having them looking over your shoulder when you try it. Don't give up because it's a lot easier to get a good CA finish than a lacquer finish.

 

[george]

I am sorry that I can not suggest anything other than CA for a really quality finish. You could use friciton polish and other easy-applied finishes, but they do not match the finaly quality and durability of CA.
I know that it is hard if you are in a time hurry due to ordered pen, but perhaps give it another try with just CA.
If it helps, here is mine way ... Doe I use thin+medium+thick CA, I do only because I have thin and medium on stock; when this run out, I will use only thick CA (I have one by Craft-supplies brand)

I set the RPM to about 500*rpm (also nothing wrong with slower); fold a towel into thich and not widht piece (about 10 layers, widht up to 1 cm). With lathe turned off put 4 drops of thich CA on the towel and apply this amount to 1 (!!!) blank by rotating lathe by hand. When it is all over the blank, turn the lathe on and with quite a pressure go left and right with the towel (go slowly). Do not worry about paper grabing the blank, since the paper is alredy covered with CA and it is "sealed" againt grabbing. When you notice the CA starting to cure (do not worry, you feel it on the paper), just move the paper faster. Do not reduce the pressure on the towel, since this leads to smooth surface. When it is dry (about 15 seconds), you can stop and repeat the same procedure on the other blank. If there is some small (but really small) piece of towel stucked on the blank, do not worry. Somehow it disapires when next layer is applayed.

Do this about 3 times, wait a minute or use just a little of accelator and than sand with 220 or 320 sandpaper - this is just to smooth out the surface. When it is smooth, put on another 3 layers of thick CA (this goes even easyer then first three layers), wait at least 1 hour (the longer, the better) and sand with 320, 400 .... upt to 12000 MM. Final buff and you are there.

Doe it looks like a long process, it really is not. And smooth, 100 % cover top-surface is garantueed.
If you wish, give it a try. Just remember, the smoother surface you get when applaying CA, the less sanding is nessesry. Do not be afraid to press towel on the blank - but do not bend the mandrell rod, of course
You will soon have this kind of finish.

UPS .... quite long message. Good luck !!!!

 

[wizical]

Unaxol is a easy to apply finish that does not smell and is just a durable as CA finish, do some searches on here to find out more. It is all i use now and it is great

 

[programmergeek]

Sorry I am in summit, NJ just updated my profile. Seems other people have better luck I will give it another shot.

Basically i coat with BLO,
Then do a layer of med ca
then put a dab of blo on a towel and about 4 drops of CA
rub till it shines and repeat about 7 times then use plastic polish.

 

[Rmartin]

What type of wood are you using?

Some very oily woods make using CA difficult.

As an alternative, use spray lacquer.

 

[Monty]

.....CA should be fresh; I find that Manny sells the best CA at the best prices.

Just to clarify, Manny lives in CA (California) but does not sell CA (cyanoacrylic glue). I, Monty, live in Houston, TX and sell CA (cyanoacrylic glue). Clear as mud, huh:wink:

 

[JimB]

You can also try Poly for your finish. The only thing you will need to buy is the poly. There is a tutorial in the library. I apply it off the lathe. It's very easy to do but oily woods will be a problem.

Also, stop trying to do the ca/blo on pens. That just makes it more frustrating becuase you are trying to finish a pen. Turn a piece of scrap wood to pen size and practice on that. It is important that it is pen size because the blank size will determine how much CA/blo you need to use.

 

[Texatdurango]

.....Also, stop trying to do the ca/blo on pens. That just makes it more frustrating becuase you are trying to finish a pen. Turn a piece of scrap wood to pen size and practice on that. It is important that it is pen size because the blank size will determine how much CA/blo you need to use.

Wow, Jim and I think alike, I was going to suggest using scraps as well. Everytime I show someone how to do a CA finish, all we use is scrap pieces and concentrate on the finish not the exact diameter to match the pen components, that will come after you get the technique down pat. Just don't give up after a few tries.

I guess NJ is a bit far to visit but if you're ever in the neighborhood!!!!

I thought we had quite a few members in the NJ area!

 

[Mike_in_Atlanta]

I too have become frustrated trying to get a consistent CA finish. As a result I have moved to using Plexiglas with good results. I found the instructions from another poster here but failed to save their name (you can search the forums for Plexiglas finish to get more info).

I make my Plexiglas but cutting some 1/8 inch sheet into 1 inch squares and dissolving in a jar with acetone. I add only enough acetone to dissolve the Plexiglas (this takes a few days). I then put some in a small squeeze bottle and dilute until it is about consistency of medium CA glue. (If the Plexiglas is too thick it will not go on smoothly.)

I apply the Plexiglas with a paper towel. (I also put a small parts bag over my index finger to keep it free of finish) I put a drop or two of Plexiglas on the towel and let it wick up onto the blank while turning at about 1800 rpm. I move the towel from one end to the other. I then repeat with another drop until I build up about 10 coats. You can keep using the same towel without problem. The acetone evaporates quickly and you shouldn't need to wait between coats.

I then wet sand with 600 grit and all of the micro mesh set. I follow this with a little (a couple drops on a cotton very small cloth) Meguiar's PlastX Clear Plastic Cleaner & Polish to bring out the final finish. If you're particular like me, you can follow this up with Tripoli and white diamond buffing wheels.

When removing the blanks you need to be careful of the Plexiglas that extends over the bushings - remove them gently then trim excess with an x-acto. If the Plexiglas pulls away a little at the ends, wick some thin CA into the space.

I have found this to be a very durable finish.

Mike

 

[leehljp]

Some do have good success with Plexi. That might be a good alternative but it does have its peculiarities.

You wrote:

if I use enought plastic polish to take the streeks out I alwas ware through an area.

The "wearing through" is caused by three things:
1. layers too thin, not enough coatings. Just because you can see shine doesn't mean to quit applying CA.
Solution - Build up some thicker layers.

2. OOR (Out Of Round) or elliptical to the point that CA is building in some spots and thin in others - but this doesn't seem to be your problem.
Solution - check with a dial indicator while on the lathe.

3. Sanding too hard. Highly subjective in description. (Some people swear that they are barely sanding and will be using way too much pressure, while others will swear that they are rubbing as hard as they can and yet be barely sanding it.)
Sanding too hard will sand through. Solution - objectively analyze sanding style.


William O. Young has a good method and the link below includes a link to a video. It is not my personal method of choice because I learned quite differently a long while ago. However, If I were to start over, I would probably use his method rather than go through the long learning curve of 18 months.
http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=43539

It took me 18 months to get consistent. The upside of the 18 months is that there is not a CA problem that I can't fix, adjust or prevent. That said, I will average 30 minutes to an hour on each finish getting each perfectly sized and shined. I am not out for production, but for the joy of making a pen. The journey of making one is every bit as much fun as the finished product - to me.

 

[bad]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=20105&cat=1,330,49236&ap=1
Works great and is easy to use. Just last weekend I was checking out a couple of my first pens. The finish is still just as good as when I made the pen.

 

[johnnycnc]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=20105&cat=1,330,49236&ap=1
Works great and is easy to use. Just last weekend I was checking out a couple of my first pens. The finish is still just as good as when I made the pen.

I checked it out and it says "This item is only available in Canada".
But mentions "made in USA". How ironic!:biggrin:
Is this some form of a shellac based friction polish, or something different, in your experience?

 

[rjwolfe3]

Until I saw that video from (I think) William O Young on CA/BLO, I had the same problem. But now for the most part I have some great finishes.

BTW I love Unaxol as well.

 

[Texatdurango]

I checked it out and it says "This item is only available in Canada".
But mentions "made in USA". How ironic!:biggrin:
Is this some form of a shellac based friction polish, or something different, in your experience?

It appears to be similar th Mylands friction polish, Google found a decent discussion here....
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=2707

 

[ldb2000]

I use CA for most of my pen finishes but have also used Poly and lacquer with good results , the only problem is they take a long time to fully cure , lacquer can take a week or more to fully cure and poly isn't much faster .
CA is the best "Fast" finish you can use on pens , it's worth taking the time to find a technique that works for you . CA/BLO don't work well for me , I use thin CA and apply between 8 to 10 coats sanding with 600 grit every other coat . As has been said just turn some of the wood you are using to pen sized blanks and try to find a technique that works for you , if it don't work sand it off and try again , you'll get it eventually .

By the way , Shellac finishes don't last on pens very long . I have tried several commercial friction polishes and a few homebrew friction polishes that I got from the net and none of them have lasted very long . I have one of those body chemistries that will destroy a FP finish in a week or two , even the Melamine lacquer finish only lasted about a month .

 

[jhudson1977]

William O Young...........that's all I can say. I too had big issues with the CA/BLO finish and was on the verge of giving up. His video changed that.

I've tweaked his procedure a little for me though. After I sand with 120 and then sand lengthwise, I take some thin CA and make a slurry from the dust and put this on the pen. This, I think, acts as a sanding sealer. I then continue through the grits up to 12000 MM. I wet sand all MM. I then use William O Youngs method and sand with 6000, 8000, 12000 MM. I do this three times and I'm done. I can finish about six pens in an hour with this method.

Hope this provides help/confidence. Don't give up!

 

[johnnycnc]

SNIP> or if I use enought plastic polish to take the streeks out I alwas ware through an area. SNIP<.

Jason, my tries of CA with BLO were much the same.
I'm SURE it works if you take the time to get it right,as too many folks are using it. I just couldn't get the "build" or thickness I needed.
I use a straight CA finish on wood, and even then, found that using the paper towel strips, they were absorbing too much glue to lay down a good coat reliably.
I have switched applicators and my thin finish woes are gone.
Now I use a small piece of packing foam
(sheet material, maybe 3/32" thick, a closed cell white foam).
This is the stuff electronics are wrapped in frequently,very common.
I think the post office may sell it also.
It absorbs nothing and all the CA stays on the blank.
I do 1 or 2 coats thin to seal and fill grain, then sand smooth.
Apply 1 or 2 coats medium, apply at low speed, smooth for 1-2 passes and shut lathe off.I rotate the spindle by hand slowly as the glue sets up, to prevent runs on the medium.
Then after it is cured, sand to remove ridges and even out and polish.
You are getting as lot more glue on the blank this way, and for me at least,
sand thru is not very easy.
I actually have to be careful and not build up so much as to cause the finished blank to be proud of the kit.

 

[bad]

I checked it out and it says "This item is only available in Canada".
But mentions "made in USA". How ironic!:biggrin:
Is this some form of a shellac based friction polish, or something different, in your experience?

You know what? I never even noticed that "only available in Canada" disclaimer. I've been using this product so long I don't even read the description any more. Sorry about that. This isn't friction based. I apply it (usually 2 coats) and let it dry. In fact the way I apply it I just hold the cloth about a quarter inch below the pen and very carefully pour it onto the pen while it's turning slowly. When it dries (usually about 10 min.) I apply a coat of turner's wax (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=20253&cat=1,330,49236&ap=1). The wax is a friction finish. I apply it while the pen is turning and then use a clean cloth to work the wax in. The friction as it's spinning melts the wax and leaves a high luster finish. The whole finishing process takes about 20 min.

If anyone's interested I could go out to the garage and get the manufacturer's name. You could contact the manufacturer and find out who distributes the product in the US.

In reading my message before I post I think I need to clarify something. This product is very thin. I can never remember if that means it's got a high viscosity or a low viscosity. When I bought it, I removed the cap. Under the cap is a foam seal that is meant to be removed. Instead of removing it I put a very small hole in it. Not much bigger than a pin hole. That's how I'm able to pour it onto the pen without making a mess.

 

[mbroberg]

Here are instructions for "Plexi-Tone" provided by TheWishman. I have never used CA as a finish. This works very well for me.

Here is a run through on my finish:

After the plexi is dissolved I pour it into a clear
condiment bottle (Wal-Mart $.79, but any container
that allows you do dispense a drop will work - though
you should check to make sure the acetone won't
dissolve the bottle) and add a bit more
acetone until the solution is a bit thicker than thin
CA glue. I check mine by putting a drop on a paper
towel, the drop should retain its shape for just a second
before being absorbed.You can experiment to get your ideal
viscosity, some people like the solution much thicker
than mine.

I sand my blanks to 400 grit and then remove all of
the dust from them. I lay newspaper across my lathe,
under the mandrel and set the lathe at 1800 rpm, I
also have a spacer bushing at each end of the mandrel.
I put a small bag from a pen kit and put it over my
index finger, fold a 1/2 paper towel to about 1/2 inch
wide.

Put a couple of drops of solution on the paper towel
and run it under the spinning blanks. Start applying
just a little pressure on the bushing set before the
blank and make a smooth motion through the bushing at
the opposite end (the motion should take about as long
as it takes to say "motion.") Then put another drop on
the towel and go the opposite way, use enough solution
so that the towel is transferring the solution to the
blanks through the whole range. I put 40 coats on
in about 3 to 4 minutes (drip, slide, drip, slide) it
dries quickly enough that the time it takes to add a
drip is all the time you need to wait. (Thicker
solutions mean slower drying time.)

After the coats have been applied, I let the lathe
spin for 2-3 minutes and then start wet sanding (just water)
with Micro Mesh. Be careful with the 1500 grit, with my
first few tries I removed most of the plexi with that
one. Just a few seconds with moderate pressure is
enough for each grit, and dry off the blank between
grits to remove the slurry. The MM work is done at the
same 1800 rpms. After some practice the whole
procedure from the first drop to removing the polished
blanks takes about 6 - 7 minutes.

I turn the lathe off and use a utility knife to score
the plexi just a bout 1/16 - 1/8 inch from the end of
the blank, be careful to do it lightly so you don't
cut into your bushings. I learned the hard way to
score, since the finish is built up on the bushings as
well as the blanks. I then remove the blanks and trim
any extra finish off the ends. I put a small piece of 400
grit sandpaper on the lathe bed and rub the finished ends
of the barrels (holding them perpendicular to the bed) to clean
off any extra finish that might extend from the ends.
__________________
Chris

Non impediti ratione cogitationis conloquium currus. Tom Magliozzi
(Unencumbered by the thought process)

 

[GaryMGg]

How do you expect me to keep this straight thru the CA fumes?!?

Just to clarify, Manny lives in CA (California) but does not sell CA (cyanoacrylic glue). I, Monty, live in Houston, TX and sell CA (cyanoacrylic glue). Clear as mud, huh:wink:

 

[jkeithrussell]

Just to clarify, Manny lives in CA (California) but does not sell CA (cyanoacrylic glue). I, Monty, live in Houston, TX and sell CA (cyanoacrylic glue). Clear as mud, huh:wink:

And just to make sure that you can never figure it out -- Monty's real name is Mannie.

 

[RussFairfield]

I have posted everything I know about a CA glue finish on my website at

http://www.woodturner-russ.com/PenPages-FinishingPens-CAglue.html

It will explain how I do a CA finish and why I do it that way.

 

[aggromere]

I watched a video on U tube by william young about 5 times and would do a couple of pens between each time I watched it and I finally got the hang of it. I very rarely have problems. I live in AZ where the humidity is always less that 10% so that may give me an edge, not sure though.

 

[Russianwolf]

I watched a video on U tube by william young about 5 times and would do a couple of pens between each time I watched it and I finally got the hang of it. I very rarely have problems. I live in AZ where the humidity is always less that 10% so that may give me an edge, not sure though.

yeah, humidity here was 80% yesterday.

 

[wicook]

Like Keven, I have been using Unaxol and am very satisfied with it.

 

[Halling51]

Just to clarify, Manny lives in CA (California) but does not sell CA (cyanoacrylic glue). I, Monty, live in Houston, TX and sell CA (cyanoacrylic glue). Clear as mud, huh:wink:

Hello Mannie.

Just home from a very nice trip in the USA and lots of ideas. Thanks a lot for the time in your home and the CA glue that has not arrived yet.
Your show how to do the CA glue was amazing. Just waiting for it to arrive and see the result.

Thanks again
Steinar in Norway

 

[drjpawlus]

Does this person want a high gloss coat? I personally like a more natural feeling wood. All I hear about is CA. One product that a wonderful turner and turning instructor from Indianapolis, Jim Dupler, got me hooked on is Kwick Kleen fast drying polyurathane. It is also water resistant, which for what I do is imperative. CA is not. I sell CA and wonder if anyone knows what CA looks like after 20 or 30 years. I have seen tons of CA pens, and some have really mastered this process and results are amazing. I just want to have a more natural look and feel, it is my personal taste only. If I were turning plastic, I would want it to feel like plastic. Wood like wood.

Anyway, this stuff is fast, beautiful, durable and easy. I showed a master violin maker, Harold Evans, this product ( sells them for up to $40,000 and is known for his finishes) and he was blown away. We both then experimented with about a half dozen products I have heard about on this forum, and this product was the easy winner.

It comes in semi-gloss, gloss and satin. I let the wood choose the gloss. Works on oily woods as well. I will post some of what I do here in the next week or two.

A good finish to me is one that is predictable, durable, beautiful, fast and easy. Nobody says this has to be hard. The actual application takes me about 20 seconds and I can handle it in about a minute. It is often used by makers of high end bows because of its durability, ability to flex, and water resistance.

Did I say I liked this product?

Thought you might want to hear something other then try harder.

 

[HawksFeather]

drj,

I just looked up the Kwick Kleen and could only find gallon and larger sizes. It also listed that it had to be shipped as HazMat which would add another $25 to the shipping. Just wondering if you have a source for a smaller size that would not need the HazMat.

Thanks,

Jerry

 

[drjpawlus]

Hello Jerry,
I ordered mine direct from Restoration Chemicals, the maker of Kwick Kleen. You can buy it by the quart to avoid the Hazmat fees. I put it in those little plastic bottles that you can by at woodcraft, or better and cheaper yet at hobby lobby. I label em satin, gloss, or semi-gloss and choose based on the wood. Their number is 812-882-3987. Would love to hear what you think after you try it.
John

 

[drjpawlus]

You know what? I never even noticed that "only available in Canada" disclaimer. I've been using this product so long I don't even read the description any more. Sorry about that. This isn't friction based. I apply it (usually 2 coats) and let it dry. In fact the way I apply it I just hold the cloth about a quarter inch below the pen and very carefully pour it onto the pen while it's turning slowly. When it dries (usually about 10 min.) I apply a coat of turner's wax (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=20253&cat=1,330,49236&ap=1). The wax is a friction finish. I apply it while the pen is turning and then use a clean cloth to work the wax in. The friction as it's spinning melts the wax and leaves a high luster finish. The whole finishing process takes about 20 min.

If anyone's interested I could go out to the garage and get the manufacturer's name. You could contact the manufacturer and find out who distributes the product in the US.

In reading my message before I post I think I need to clarify something. This product is very thin. I can never remember if that means it's got a high viscosity or a low viscosity. When I bought it, I removed the cap. Under the cap is a foam seal that is meant to be removed. Instead of removing it I put a very small hole in it. Not much bigger than a pin hole. That's how I'm able to pour it onto the pen without making a mess.

From the description and the look of the bottle and its contents, I would hazard to guess that this is Behlen's Woodturner's Finish. They would private label for the Canadian market with the stipulation that it is only sold in Canada.

If you would like to try this product JohnnyCNC, come on by and I can give you some. I got a plethora of friction polishes that I have been experimenting with. It does have a much lower wax content that Hut crystal coat and Shellawax, which makes it more waterproof actually. That is why it doesn't have the milky appearance of the other two.

 

[HawksFeather]

John,

Thanks for the info. I will give it a try.

Jerry

 

[JimB]

Hello Jerry,
I ordered mine direct from Restoration Chemicals, the maker of Kwick Kleen. You can buy it by the quart to avoid the Hazmat fees. I put it in those little plastic bottles that you can by at woodcraft, or better and cheaper yet at hobby lobby. I label em satin, gloss, or semi-gloss and choose based on the wood. Their number is 812-882-3987. Would love to hear what you think after you try it.
John

There site says it's a spray application. How are you putting it on?

 

[drjpawlus]

Hello Jim,
Wipe on, using a strip of thicker industrial paper towel.
Will set up very quick. Can't do this with large surface applications due to this fast setup time, with small turned objects in which the entire objects surface can be finished in seconds, it is quite ideal. Again, I am not looking for the glassy look that many here favor.
John

 

[johnnycnc]

From the description and the look of the bottle and its contents, I would hazard to guess that this is Behlen's Woodturner's Finish. They would private label for the Canadian market with the stipulation that it is only sold in Canada.

If you would like to try this product JohnnyCNC, come on by and I can give you some. I got a plethora of friction polishes that I have been experimenting with. It does have a much lower wax content that Hut crystal coat and Shellawax, which makes it more waterproof actually. That is why it doesn't have the milky appearance of the other two.

Thanks for the offer, John! I'm not a friction polish fan, thought this
was maybe something different.
I think I'll stick with my CA and may try the Kwick Kleen you showed me.
I found it online for sale, thanks for the tip.What you showed me that you
had used the Kwick Kleen on, looked superb. And for the quickness of
it as you say, I'd be a fool not to try it.

 

[bad]

From the description and the look of the bottle and its contents, I would hazard to guess that this is Behlen's Woodturner's Finish. They would private label for the Canadian market with the stipulation that it is only sold in Canada.

If you would like to try this product JohnnyCNC, come on by and I can give you some. I got a plethora of friction polishes that I have been experimenting with. It does have a much lower wax content that Hut crystal coat and Shellawax, which makes it more waterproof actually. That is why it doesn't have the milky appearance of the other two.

Yeah, I looked at the label and there is no indication of who the manufacturer is.

 

[JimB]

Hello Jim,
Wipe on, using a strip of thicker industrial paper towel.
Will set up very quick. Can't do this with large surface applications due to this fast setup time, with small turned objects in which the entire objects surface can be finished in seconds, it is quite ideal. Again, I am not looking for the glassy look that many here favor.
John

Thanks John. I have used Minwax Poly and like how that comes out. I have been applying 6 or 7 coats by wiping it on with a small piece of folded paper powel. I really like the ease of application and the final finish. On oily wood I still use CA so I was interested when you said it works on Oily woods. I'll need to look into buying some of this to try it.

 

[Mac]

experiment ;night before last I tried three coats of straight CA then instead of sanding I did 3 coats of CA/BLO then plastic polish thats it ;no grooves,no sanding, quick ,deep shine .I liked it so much I did a demo at our local IAP meeting Saturday. So experiment what works for one might not work for another .