Monty
Group Buy Coordinator
From this, I don't see anything wrong that you did. If anything, maybe too much accelerator. I think I have a piece of coco in the shop. I'll give it a try tomorrow following your steps and see what happens.
Exoticblanks BAD batch of Accelerator...?
- Thread starter wiset1
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I opened the bag the accelerator came in and screwed on the aplicator pump that came with it. No cross contamination.
The barrel of the pen finished fine using the PSI brand accelerator so the fact that it was Cocobolo....not sure that was an issue
Monty,
I really have no idea what the issue was...I've made so many pens recently using the same method, in the same workshop, under the same conditions
I'm sorry if this post posed a question as to the product in question...just working to resolve a problem.
Padre
Member
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2009
- Messages
- 1,841
Tim,
Please don't feel anyone is 'scratching your eyes out' over this. We are all going to learn from these posts, and that is a good thing.
I agree with everyone that Ed and Dawn are fantastic folks who stand 100% behind their products.
But if we don't ask questions, how do we learn? So please continue to share your pens with us as well as your problems. That's how we all benefit.
Please don't feel anyone is 'scratching your eyes out' over this. We are all going to learn from these posts, and that is a good thing.
I agree with everyone that Ed and Dawn are fantastic folks who stand 100% behind their products.
But if we don't ask questions, how do we learn? So please continue to share your pens with us as well as your problems. That's how we all benefit.
G1Pens
Member
One other question I have that I have not seen asked.....have you tried to reproduce the problem. In other words have you turned another cocobolo and tried to finish it with the same combo of CA and accelerator?
witz1976
Member
The only thing I can think of that may make the difference is that as previously mentioned some accelerators have more acetone than others. Perhaps this could be the cause? It is even trickier where you are using coco...I had nightmares trying to finish that. Have you tried turning and finishing a different species? I am curious if you have same results.
Once this happened I let it air dry and then I sanded it down to the wood again and tried the steps again which resulted in the same fogged finish. While this was the same result it was on the exact blank it happened to originaly. It should be made clear that the barrel finished like glass without issue using the PSI accelerator so I'm not puting too much value in the idea that it was the wood.
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Perhaps this could have been the issue, but at this point I think I'll try and send it back to Ed to see what he thinks since it was both bottles.
I'll try again on a blown out blank I have in the shop to see if I get the same results. I really like the product and the price so I would like to figure out what the problem was.
Dudley Young
Member
Put the accelerator on the shelf and use BLO.
This is how new I am to turning...What's BLO? As seen in my gallery, the CA works for me but if BLO works...???
Russianwolf
Member
BLO - Boiled Linseed Oil
Russianwolf
Member
if you do a bit of reading of the threads related to CA on the site you'll find that a change in any one aspect can change the outcome. What works for one person here, will not work for another person over there and the like.
It got so frustrating for me, that I avoid CA altogether for my pens and only use it when I absolutely must (I'll use it to stabilize a blank but not as the finish most of the time).
Be patient and you may find an answer, be willing to change how you apply it, and try not to huff the fumes. :tongue:
It got so frustrating for me, that I avoid CA altogether for my pens and only use it when I absolutely must (I'll use it to stabilize a blank but not as the finish most of the time).
Be patient and you may find an answer, be willing to change how you apply it, and try not to huff the fumes. :tongue:
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
Because the first half of the pen "worked" and the second half didn't and the only thing changed was the accelerant, I certainly see the logic of Tim's surmise that it is the accelerant.
So, my focus would be on the difference between an aerosol container and the "spritzer". An aerosol can be used about 6" from the blank to 18" or so, all successfully. A spritzer, if used too close to the blank, will spew "droplets". So, my best guess is the distance from the blank should be increased.
Take this for what it is worth, as a "hypothesis". It will not be a "solution" unless confirmed by experimentation.
IF you just want to return the products and go back to the way that has worked for you---that is fine, too.
We aim to please!!!
So, my focus would be on the difference between an aerosol container and the "spritzer". An aerosol can be used about 6" from the blank to 18" or so, all successfully. A spritzer, if used too close to the blank, will spew "droplets". So, my best guess is the distance from the blank should be increased.
Take this for what it is worth, as a "hypothesis". It will not be a "solution" unless confirmed by experimentation.
IF you just want to return the products and go back to the way that has worked for you---that is fine, too.
We aim to please!!!
Since this is more about finding a solution than anything else I'll give it a try this weekend and see what the results are. Thanks Ed for your understanding and assistance.
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
Hey Tim----ANY opportunity to learn is a GOOD thing!!!!
I will learn as much, if not more than anyone from this.
Thank you!!!
I will learn as much, if not more than anyone from this.
Thank you!!!
roddesigner
Member
I got to throw this out not being a CA person but could the accelerator have been frozen thawed frozen again in transit and would that make a difference.
Next re bad batch a term very often seen on rodbuilding pages in regard to finish, something to consider is the materials used to make the end product are mixed in large quantities the packaged in smaller bottles if there is a bad batch and it's possible there would be numerous post regarding the product and possible defects not one, most often it is user error in some way and with CA it appears a common problem, good opportunity to test various things and find out what the culprit is, to hot to cold, humidity etc.
Big thing is please post results of the test for all to learn from
Next re bad batch a term very often seen on rodbuilding pages in regard to finish, something to consider is the materials used to make the end product are mixed in large quantities the packaged in smaller bottles if there is a bad batch and it's possible there would be numerous post regarding the product and possible defects not one, most often it is user error in some way and with CA it appears a common problem, good opportunity to test various things and find out what the culprit is, to hot to cold, humidity etc.
Big thing is please post results of the test for all to learn from
Monty
Group Buy Coordinator
Tim,
One thing I forgot to ask, are you using the regular or mild accelerator. If you're not sure, the regular in in a frosted looking bottle with a white cap and the mild is a clear bottle with a black cap.
One thing I forgot to ask, are you using the regular or mild accelerator. If you're not sure, the regular in in a frosted looking bottle with a white cap and the mild is a clear bottle with a black cap.
Monty
Group Buy Coordinator
John, I doubt it was frozen as the freezing point of acetone is about -138*F.
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
nativewooder
Member
Well, it is my humble uneducated opinion, since I have used these products since 2003 without a problem, that someone played a "joke" on someone else and peed in the bottle!
greggas
Member
How many of us said to ourselves"...it was cocobollo..." when we read that post.
I ALWAYS rub coco down with acetone to remove the oils otherwise I ALWAYS got fogging to blisters.
I ALWAYS rub coco down with acetone to remove the oils otherwise I ALWAYS got fogging to blisters.
+1 for blo and ca. BLO acts as an accelerator. Here is how I learned to apply it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orcgOf4siqc
I have never had a problem using this method!
I have never had a problem using this method!
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
This is NOT meant as argumentative, but I also have used BLO (Boiled Linseed Oil) for many months. THEN, one group of pens "bloomed" (got white spots) a couple weeks after they were made. So, now I use BLO on the wood to pull the grain, and BLO for the first couple coats of thin CA, then change to medium CA and accelerator (both EZ Bond).
I am NOT 100% in my CA finishes, but FOR ME this has been successful probably 85% of the time.
(Have I mentioned lately, I am a "RESINATOR"!!!!! In a quote I have not seen for a long time, "Wood is good, Plastic is fantastic"!!!----YoYo Spin!!)
FWIW
I am NOT 100% in my CA finishes, but FOR ME this has been successful probably 85% of the time.
(Have I mentioned lately, I am a "RESINATOR"!!!!! In a quote I have not seen for a long time, "Wood is good, Plastic is fantastic"!!!----YoYo Spin!!)
FWIW
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Monty
Group Buy Coordinator
Shouldn't make any difference. It's just I've always used the regular (white cap) and wanted to make sure I used the same as you when I try to duplicate your problem.
Most people use the regular on pens but a few prefer the mild for whatever reason. The difference is the the regular is acetone based and will melt some plastics (don't ever put regular accelerator in the spray bottle in place of mild) while the mild is heptane based and will not melt plastic.
IPD_Mrs
Member
First, Thank you for your service!!
We also use the EZ-Bond CA. However, we do cross the Zip Kicker (Zap Brand) accelerator with no problem. Cocobolo is a difficult wood as you mentioned before and if you were having really high humidity where you are stationed that too will have an affect on the finish sometimes. Standing too close and getting too much spray as someone else mentioned has been known to be an issue at times. As for your feelings about not posting again and only using the PM system, I sincerely hope that you will reconsider that. YOU are not responsible for another person's actions or reactions as I am certain you are aware. Take it with a grain of salt, garner the information from it that helps you to improve your pens and finishes. Like others have said, we all learn from one another and we can't do so if no one posts the problems they have as well as the successes they enjoy.
Mrs.
ctubbs
Member
Tim I am glad you brought this out and feel for you with the piling on you received. The only reason that I did not join is my tardy start on this thread. Your experience with CA just goes to reinforce the mystery of CA. I thought I had suffered every imaginable problem with that horrid stuff, but you found a different one. It didn't even set up on your skin! WOW! I never heard of such a thing. That stuff always sets on contact with skin. Please do not quit posting to IAP. I truly enjoy your work. This is an important situation we all need to have resolved. Whatever the problem, it faces us all that use CA for a finish. Ed and Monty are working on a solution. They both offer excellent customer service. Great people both. Just hang in there, if there is a solution to this problem, they will come up with it.
Have fun and don't get stuck to the project with CA. And thank you for the service you and your fellow soldiers are preforming.
Charles
Have fun and don't get stuck to the project with CA. And thank you for the service you and your fellow soldiers are preforming.
Charles
jttheclockman
Member
I say to really resolve the issue. Send both items back to Monty and he will send a fresh new set and he can play with this stuff to determine if something was a bad batch. Maybe also send him a sample of the wood used. In return he sends the fresh CA and something else for your troubles. Case closed. When he has his findings he will report back. Seems fair to me and this back and forth would not go on. Just my 2¢ Wait don't I get change
bruce119
Member
As was what said COCOBOLO a very oily problematic wood. Now I didn't read all the post till hear the thread is getting kind of long so I am sure it was addressed but I will give my way I do it.
First off Cocobolo is very oily after turning & sanding I wipe down the blank with acetone. I will wipe it down at least 3 times with a soaked paper towel with acetone. You will see the oils cleaning out of the surface your first pass the paper towel will be very dirty and dark with the oil I wipe till it is just about clean. Let it dry a minute or 2 not too long the oil will seep back up to the surface of the wood. Now I start my CA process I don't use paper towel any more I think it gives you more (other) problems. I use thin foam (such as that used to protect electronics) as an applicator A piece of plastic would work also wear gloves. I don't use paper towel because it acts an an accelerator and can cause all kinds of problems (but not what you are experiencing).
I use thick CA but medium would work. With the lathe running slow I apply the ca as a bead across the blank onto and in-between the foam or plastic applicator. Now I work that back an forth real fast across the blank making a thin layer then stop and remove the applicator before it starts to set That's a little tricky). Now I give it a real fast spritz of accelerator about 12" away and 6 inches above and let the accelerator lightly settle on the blank. It takes about 15 seconds to set. Then I do it again 8 times then wet sand and finish.
Now my thoughts on your problem without being there just guess work. First thought is your using too much accelerator just one very fine mist. Just the fumes of accelerator near an open bottle of CA will shorten it's life significantly always cap your CA before you spray. Did I say accelerator is potent a little goes a long, long, long way. Now use used thin CA for the first coat I would guess a fair amount also and let it soak into the wood (Cocobolo). Now you apply your medium and then spray on the accl. 3 squirts now I think the accelerator is working through the second coat of CA you just applied down to the first that is soaked into the oily wood and reacting with that causing it to soften. Now the oil from the wood is interacted with the CA and it will not set.
Something to test take some CA on anything you don't care about. Put a drop on accl. on it will it is wet touch it you will see the CA has soften. Also if you don't disturb the spot when it does dry it will most likely leave that white powdery spot.
Now try this take your Cocobolo (for that matter I do EVERY wood the same way) and wipe it down throughly with acetone. Let it dry it will dry fast it will feel cold as it dries don't wait too long. Then start your CA I would just start with the medium as I described above.
Another thing you guys should never do is store your accelerator near your CA. Just the fumes from accl. will shorten your CA life.
Well that's enough for now this is turning into a book everyone is different.
Bruce
GaryMGg
Member
Cocobolo is an oil wood which many times has a high moisture content internally while appearing dry externally.
Moreover, I expect turning Coco creates heat in the oil which further exacerbates the moisture problem.
I've had CA fogging with Coco when nothing else did using Monty's CA.
My solution has been to turn a Coco blank, get it ready for finishing, then leave it sit
for a day or two to allow the temps and moisture to return to my local environmental conditions.
YMMV.
NB: When you buy from Ed, you buy from a service-oriented vendor who stands behind you to support your business.
Moreover, I expect turning Coco creates heat in the oil which further exacerbates the moisture problem.
I've had CA fogging with Coco when nothing else did using Monty's CA.
My solution has been to turn a Coco blank, get it ready for finishing, then leave it sit
for a day or two to allow the temps and moisture to return to my local environmental conditions.
YMMV.
NB: When you buy from Ed, you buy from a service-oriented vendor who stands behind you to support your business.
I'll try and express this again..."The lower barrel of the pen finished fine and looked like glass when finished, but I ran out of the PSI accelerator I originaly use. I started to finish the pen cap and used the E-Z bond accelerator with the SAME E-Z bond Medium CA glue used for the barrel and the problem occured. I did everything the same as 50 pens before it and the only thing that changed was the product line of accelerator." As noted before, Ed, Monty and I are working to figure this out. I've turned a couple pens from the same batch of Cocobolo and never had an issue so I can't see this being the issue not to mention that the lower barrel glassed fine. For the most part I think this has been covered in the posts here and that is why it has become such a head scratcher.
Wildman
Member
I have a different take on this issue. Can honestly say do not care how many times you performed the same procedure or technique, wood will find a way to humble you. Why, no two pieces of wood are the same!
You can what if all you want too. Just remember if frogs had wings would not bump their ass every time they hop!
So take a step back and try a different method!
You can what if all you want too. Just remember if frogs had wings would not bump their ass every time they hop!
So take a step back and try a different method!
I've asked the moderators of this forum to close the thread so with any luck they will honor the request and put this beast to rest. If they choose not to close the thread I'm sure it will go on without me...
Best wishes to ALL and thank you for your time regarding this matter.
Best wishes to ALL and thank you for your time regarding this matter.
But this WAS the same piece of wood...
Okay...I'm not going to post again. This thread has been shot, killed, brought back to life, killed again, and still rolls on...let it go
jttheclockman
Member
Hey Tim relax. You were the one who brought it to the attention of the forum. Not everyone comes on line at the same time. There are some good thoughts that may also help others. You 3 can work it out till the cows come home but the truth be told unless one of them have the exact same material with the exact sme CA and spray they will never know. It could be something as simple a mixup in the batch of spray or a bad batch of CA. Duplicating the same results may not be possible. I did not read all the posts but did you try to duplicate the same happenings again and if you were able then there is a problem and let Monty look at it. Send the stuff to Monty.
If you don't want to read any more than skip this thread and move on.
turff49
Member
Only time anything can be duplicated is in a lab under a controlled environment. Second, oil content in wood can be excessive in some areas, it depends on the cell fibers and various other properties. My scientific guess is it could be a combination of the oils, the temp of the wood( you let it set 30 minutes) minute condensation possibly if it was cold, and possibly any impurities that could've settled on the blank that were floating around in the air.
Now, for thinking everyone else should let it die and not respond, well you brought it to a forum. It's a problem you experienced with a product almost all of us use, so we as a forum want that problem solved. The beauty of a forum is the diversity of it's members.
Now, for thinking everyone else should let it die and not respond, well you brought it to a forum. It's a problem you experienced with a product almost all of us use, so we as a forum want that problem solved. The beauty of a forum is the diversity of it's members.
Daniel
Member
Your problem is Cocobolo and the oils that are in it. best cure is wiping the blank down with denatured alcohol before applying CA. does not always work but that has been what works best for me. CA does not like oils. not even those from you hands. think you can touch a blank and not leave oil? try touching a mirror and get the same results. otherwise you are just kidding yourself. Cocobolo is horrible about fogging up and yes it is a random blank that does it.
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bruce119
Member
Hey Daniel good to see you I sure miss your group buys
Yes threads like these are good for the forum in that someone else could pick something up from in it. I described my method that works great for me. This is how I discovered it from a thread like this reading it tried it and had a Ahh-haa moment that changed everything. I struggled for a year with CA and BLO then read about the thin foam applicator thick CA and very light mist of accelerator. I went back and refinished all my pens from the previous 2 years.
So you never know who is going to benefit from a thread like this. And the title you gave it IS going to draw a LOT of attention.
Look at it as a good thing someone is bond to learn something.
Tim when you get it figured out or a least get something to work come back and let us know.:biggrin:
Bruce
Yes threads like these are good for the forum in that someone else could pick something up from in it. I described my method that works great for me. This is how I discovered it from a thread like this reading it tried it and had a Ahh-haa moment that changed everything. I struggled for a year with CA and BLO then read about the thin foam applicator thick CA and very light mist of accelerator. I went back and refinished all my pens from the previous 2 years.
So you never know who is going to benefit from a thread like this. And the title you gave it IS going to draw a LOT of attention.
Look at it as a good thing someone is bond to learn something.
Tim when you get it figured out or a least get something to work come back and let us know.:biggrin:
Bruce