Based on my observations over the past few months, when it comes to CA finishing folks are either in the micromesh camp or the buffing camp. I started with MM and have had results I am happy with, and haven't tried buffing. But I came across this video where I got the tip to use EEE Ultra Shine instead of MM. I decided to give it a try, and must say I am very happy with the results. I applied the CA, then sanded 400 thru 2000, then EEE, then HUT polish. The result is essentially indistinguishable from MM, in less than half the time. I am a little concerned that scratches might start to show once the waxes from the EEE wears off, we'll see. I'll probably continue to use this method on the slims that I give away at work. I just thought I would share this for others that might be looking for a little time saver.
EEE for CA Finish
- Thread starter Dehn0045
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I use EEE every time.
mmayo
Member
EEE
+1 to using EEE and Beale buffs
+1 to using EEE and Beale buffs
terry q
Member
I use Novus heavy & fine scratch remover. It gives he appearance of a deeper finish. Plus it's a lot smoother.
leehljp
Member Liaison
The problem with EEE is that it wears off in a few days of regular pen usage. For me, it is - "what is the purpose of a shine that will wear off in a few days?" I remember the first pen in which I used EEE over light coatings of CA, and then the embarrassment of seeing the EEE wear off after I gave it to a friend. I stopped using EEE after that. EEE is good for display.
If a pen were on display and barely touched, it will work. The same for furniture polished wood - use it on occasion and wax it every week. Pens are different. I personally prefer a sheen on waxed wood rather than glossy shine that will rub off because the rubbed off spots show through in the long run.
As to MM and other polishes - here is a chart of comparison grits:
http://content.penturners.org/library/general_reference/abrasive_chart.pdf
I do have some sandpaper (3M) with .5 micron that is finer than 12000 MM. Once that grit is arrived at on a pen, polish and buffing add little else. But there are differences that show up from some people - and that would be "technique" differences, not polish or SP or wax.
If a pen were on display and barely touched, it will work. The same for furniture polished wood - use it on occasion and wax it every week. Pens are different. I personally prefer a sheen on waxed wood rather than glossy shine that will rub off because the rubbed off spots show through in the long run.
As to MM and other polishes - here is a chart of comparison grits:
http://content.penturners.org/library/general_reference/abrasive_chart.pdf
I do have some sandpaper (3M) with .5 micron that is finer than 12000 MM. Once that grit is arrived at on a pen, polish and buffing add little else. But there are differences that show up from some people - and that would be "technique" differences, not polish or SP or wax.
eharri446
Member
I have never used EEE on a pen. I did use something similar called Tripoli polish when doing sterling silver jewelry to remove scratches. This came in a bar and was applied using a buffing wheel.
I do use MM from 1500 to 12000 after using 500 grit and 1000 grit wet or dry. I use a spray bottle with two or three drops of dish soap in the water to help eliminate surface tension issues with the water. I then use a plastic polish as it appears to put the final shine onto the CA or acrylic finish.
I do use MM from 1500 to 12000 after using 500 grit and 1000 grit wet or dry. I use a spray bottle with two or three drops of dish soap in the water to help eliminate surface tension issues with the water. I then use a plastic polish as it appears to put the final shine onto the CA or acrylic finish.
KenV
Member
Sam, there are at least 40 more camps out there in the trees and brush. And there may be a lot more.
There is a general philosophical divide though, with two polar points. Those who finish to "good-nuf" and those seeking the skills to finish to the quality of $1000 + pens.
Each has to decide where they head. I have had a couple of top end pens in hand and am inching my skills that direction.
There is a general philosophical divide though, with two polar points. Those who finish to "good-nuf" and those seeking the skills to finish to the quality of $1000 + pens.
Each has to decide where they head. I have had a couple of top end pens in hand and am inching my skills that direction.
The EEE is basically the same as Tripoli, but more wax than abrasive. That's where the name was derived from... Triple E.
The fastest way to achieve a glass sheen, and best result, at least for me, is to sand to 220 grit. Where one starts is dependent on the surface after turning, or in some cases, cutting. After using the 220 grit, I use Tripoli on two different types of wheels (concentric and loose), and then to the white rouge on a loose or string buff.
After practice and a technique a person finds for themselves, the finish is flawless to the naked eye. This is how average people judge a finish, just by looking at it and feeling it, in my experience. And the whole procedure only takes a couple of minutes for a double barrel pen.
There is a difference in buffing and polishing.
I find the MM a waste of time and if using compounds, it's a step backward.
I'm sure you find this worth the price that was paid.
The fastest way to achieve a glass sheen, and best result, at least for me, is to sand to 220 grit. Where one starts is dependent on the surface after turning, or in some cases, cutting. After using the 220 grit, I use Tripoli on two different types of wheels (concentric and loose), and then to the white rouge on a loose or string buff.
After practice and a technique a person finds for themselves, the finish is flawless to the naked eye. This is how average people judge a finish, just by looking at it and feeling it, in my experience. And the whole procedure only takes a couple of minutes for a double barrel pen.
There is a difference in buffing and polishing.
I find the MM a waste of time and if using compounds, it's a step backward.
I'm sure you find this worth the price that was paid.
Thanks John. I'm going to add a set of buffing wheels to my wish list. It would have been nice if more of the "beginner" penturning videos out there would go over some of these techniques (TBC, drilling on the lathe, etc). I guess it is all part of learning, but it sure would have saved me a bunch of time and money to go straight to the best techniques.
In most instances, buffing is the process to remove the blemishes from the surface, i.e. scratches. Polishing is the process of refining and cleaning the surface to achieve a shine.
Both processes are similar, but use different materials.
Buffing uses a ridged or coarse wheel with a larger particle compound. The compound and wheels are dependent on the material and the condition of the surface. Once the buffing is finished, the surface should be smooth and ready for polishing.
Polishing uses a soft wheel, usually flannel or canton flannel for a glass shine. Cotton can be used, and is usually the string or loose wheels. These wheels are used in combination with what's called a greaseless compound. These compounds use either an extremely fine particle or powder. The lack of grease, or the binder, eliminates the build up that diminishes the shine and it removes the grease from the buffing process.
I don't know how informative this may be... I'm better at conveying information by demonstration as opposed to written instruction.
One important tip when using wheels... use a light touch. Let the compound do the work, not the wheel. Just the outside edge of the wheel should lightly touch the surface. Using the wheel with too much pressure against it, will create a lot of heat and can destroy more than the finish.
A safety tip... avoid catches. This can be done by only touching the wheel to the bottom 3/4 of the part. Then flip it end for end, and repeat. If the wheel touches the top edge of the part, it can be violently ripped from your hand.
I'm sure a lot of people would appreciate an all in one stop for everything pen making. I guess the IAP is the best option, although it does take some effort to gather the information. It just depends on what a person is wanting to do, since some people want to get to a destination gradually.
Most of these techniques used to make pens, were adapted from other venues, with most being metal working and machining. All of these techniques have been used for other things for many years, and because of the diverse arrangement of the IAP, they have made their way here.
I'm guessing, that most of the beginners, start with the most simple and available pen making supplies. Then they discover the IAP, and find all of the useful information they wished they would've had before the purchase of the supplies they are now intending to replace.
I hope this is partially comprehensive.
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raar25
Member
I use DNA to clean off the wax left behind by EEE and than use plastic polish after the EEE. It is still much faster than MM and leaves equal or better finish. I don't put wax on the final pen so I know what the final product is.
leehljp
Member Liaison
Different sets of working communities have different meanings for the same terms. It can get confusing. :biggrin:
I remember when I first came here and saw the term "pop the grain". It had a different meaning that the woodworkers and cabinet makers that I grew up with. Even traveling to other states (in the South) and talking with woodworker or two at a saw mill or lumber yard, "Pop the grain" meant to wet it so the grain would be raised and then sand it down, smoothing it out to a very smooth surface.
Then on this forum I hear people using it from different sections of the country in which it was meant to "make the contrast of the grain to be noticed VISUALLY.
"Polish and buff" are similar in that they have different meanings in different communities. I have adapted to what I read on IAP. What I grew up with was this:
Polish - an extremely fine compound or waxy compound that fills in or rubs out extremely fine marks. The end result is a beautiful surface that you can see through.
Buff: when a haze has developed from wax, or the sheen/shine has declined from dust, time, or finger prints usage. Buffing wipes this dust, prints, hand oils, haze off so that the original beautiful surface can be seen or seen through.
In pen turning and in a few other industries now, compound is added to the buffing stage. That used to be called "more finely polishing".
When I was in Japan, the compound usage were listed under polish, and the buffing liquids/waxes (no fine compounds) and listed under buffing. That is what I grew up with, but the world does change and so do word meanings.
gtriever
Member
Hank, I grew up with the same terminology as you; you Polished it, and then you Buffed it. However, if there's one thing I've learned over the years, it's that the same thing can have many different names. Example : open wheel drivers have oversteer and understeer, while the stock car boys are either loose or tight. To paraphrase an old saying, sometimes we're separated by a common language...
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NLAlston
Member
Well, I am still (self considered) a relative newbie, and this is how I finish my pens:
After sanding, I treat my turned banks with about ten coats of thin CA. I then move to EEE. After that, there's a friction polish applied. Lastly, I follow up with 2-3 coats of wipe-on Poly.
So far, things have been traveling nicely, with my pens. I don't dare presume to give the impression that mine is a winning recipe
. It's just that I had bought my finishing products at different times, and am using them (largely) on the strength that I HAVE them.
But it seems to work out, pretty darned good.
After sanding, I treat my turned banks with about ten coats of thin CA. I then move to EEE. After that, there's a friction polish applied. Lastly, I follow up with 2-3 coats of wipe-on Poly.
So far, things have been traveling nicely, with my pens. I don't dare presume to give the impression that mine is a winning recipe
. It's just that I had bought my finishing products at different times, and am using them (largely) on the strength that I HAVE them.But it seems to work out, pretty darned good.
plumcrazzy
Member
New to this forum. New to pen turning/finishing. Old hand at polishing wood, metal, and other products. My pen finishing process is as follows. Start with sanding @ 120 grit and move through 150, 180, 220, 240, 320 and end with 400. ALWAYS sand with the grain after each grit. After 400 grab a handful of the shavings from turning the blank and hold them with your hand against the turning blank to "burnish" the blank (I use the same speed as the turning speed). Be careful here. Then using thin CA to wipe on as many coats as you want. Here is what is special for me---White Diamonds. White Diamonds is a thick liquid polish that is used to polish metal, plastics, etc. I got mine at Advance Auto (around $14.00 for a large bottle). Apply at whatever speed you turned the part using a small section of soft cloth (old T-shirt) for about a minute then remove material with another section of cloth---looks like glass. Only drawback is that it will leave small specks of white residue in porous woods but that can be cleaned out with soap & water. Works great for me---just wanted to pass this along as a huge time saver.
budnder
Member
Is one of these bottles what you're referring to:
White Diamond "Metal Polish & High Shine Kit" Metal Polish & Sealant - New | eBay
McKenzie Penworks
Member
So I've been turning pens a little while but I cut my teeth on finishing when I was building custom drums. The thing about drums is that the customer expects a flawless glass like finish. Of course, it's a little easier when you learn how to handle an HVLP gun and your sanding should be pretty minimal. Pens however, don't work too tell with a big spray gun.
One thing I never understood when reading posts about pen finishing was the thickness of finish people put on. 10+ coats? Who has time for that? So here's the finishing schedule I came up with for myself.
1. Once the pen is turned I'll hit it with 320 grit to get any line out from the cutting tool. Spin the piece, level it out, then stop the lathe and sand manually 90 degrees to the rotation.
2. Glove up, put a decent amount of thick CA glue (varies depending on pen size, kind of a practice til you get it right thing ya know?) on the finger and turn the lathe at 500rpms to spread it onto the piece. Takes a while to get it right but you can get it pretty smooth. The thick glue gets a nice base on there AND I've found it to be less likely to get between your pen blank and the bushings. Creates a barrier you can lay the thin glue on top of.
3. Let that cure an hour or so... then glove up and use a medium to thin CA glue. Same as before, 500 rpms, spread it on smooth. Each glue is different but lately I've been using some Aron Alpha type 202 glue. That stuff buffs out very nice. At 100 cps viscosity it's a bit thinner than what I'd been using but I think I like it.
4. Wait 30 minutes to an hour between coats but should only need 4 coats. Extra work needed to fill in voids obviously.
5. I let the finish cure at least 8 hours because well, I learned my lessons early on about letting things cure. Probably could use CA instant curing add ons but I'm never in that much of a rush.
6. I've tried micromesh, cool product... don't need that many grits. If I did my job right on the finish I start at 800 grit. Wet sand with lathe on, turn it off, wet sand 90 degrees to rotation. I do this with 800 grit, 1200 grit and 2000 grit. IF I screw up and have drips, etc I'll start with 600 grit instead.
7. After sanding I dry it off and break out the buffing pads. I actually use pads made for a hand buffer because I had them. 2 pads, one white for course compound and one blue for final buff. First pass is 3M Heavy Cut with the white pad, maybe hit them 2-3 times. Then the soft pad with 3M Finesse it final finish. Twice is plenty.
I realize it's still a lot of steps but no way would I ever need 10+ coats or want to sand through 10 different grits.
I'm a fan of using the right product for the job and the 3M buffing compounds are some of the better ones out there. Same with their foam pads, I've used the same ones for years now.
One thing I never understood when reading posts about pen finishing was the thickness of finish people put on. 10+ coats? Who has time for that? So here's the finishing schedule I came up with for myself.
1. Once the pen is turned I'll hit it with 320 grit to get any line out from the cutting tool. Spin the piece, level it out, then stop the lathe and sand manually 90 degrees to the rotation.
2. Glove up, put a decent amount of thick CA glue (varies depending on pen size, kind of a practice til you get it right thing ya know?) on the finger and turn the lathe at 500rpms to spread it onto the piece. Takes a while to get it right but you can get it pretty smooth. The thick glue gets a nice base on there AND I've found it to be less likely to get between your pen blank and the bushings. Creates a barrier you can lay the thin glue on top of.
3. Let that cure an hour or so... then glove up and use a medium to thin CA glue. Same as before, 500 rpms, spread it on smooth. Each glue is different but lately I've been using some Aron Alpha type 202 glue. That stuff buffs out very nice. At 100 cps viscosity it's a bit thinner than what I'd been using but I think I like it.
4. Wait 30 minutes to an hour between coats but should only need 4 coats. Extra work needed to fill in voids obviously.
5. I let the finish cure at least 8 hours because well, I learned my lessons early on about letting things cure. Probably could use CA instant curing add ons but I'm never in that much of a rush.
6. I've tried micromesh, cool product... don't need that many grits. If I did my job right on the finish I start at 800 grit. Wet sand with lathe on, turn it off, wet sand 90 degrees to rotation. I do this with 800 grit, 1200 grit and 2000 grit. IF I screw up and have drips, etc I'll start with 600 grit instead.
7. After sanding I dry it off and break out the buffing pads. I actually use pads made for a hand buffer because I had them. 2 pads, one white for course compound and one blue for final buff. First pass is 3M Heavy Cut with the white pad, maybe hit them 2-3 times. Then the soft pad with 3M Finesse it final finish. Twice is plenty.
I realize it's still a lot of steps but no way would I ever need 10+ coats or want to sand through 10 different grits.
I'm a fan of using the right product for the job and the 3M buffing compounds are some of the better ones out there. Same with their foam pads, I've used the same ones for years now.
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plumcrazzy
Member
NLAlston
Member
Well, I can't speak for anyone else, and will say that what "I" do is for my OWN peace of mind. I have tried thick, as well as medium viscosities CA glue which (both) seemed to quickly arrive at a 'plasticized' look (that I did NOT appreciate). Some, like that. But I am in the camp of those who do not. I am not a professional, and do not profess to be. I (personally) do what I do because of having found workability within WHAT, and HOW I do it. I haven't found that top-of-the-mountain finishing method (yet), but feel good about what i'm doing (right now), until such time as I can latch onto whatever method that is.
And, as far as your query about 'Who has the time for that?', is concerned - I have no issue with that (time, that is). I immensely enjoy what I'm doing, in my shop, and would feel that same way even if I never sold another pen.
Just like my turnings will get better, so will my finishing process. It's a matter of learning processes, which translates into growth
.
McKenzie Penworks
Member
The time reference was tongue in cheek mostly. Believe me I've learned many a lesson about how you can't rush a finish. Almost destroyed a $400 drum shell once because I was in a hurry. Finishing is one of those things where you end up finding what works for you and it might not work for anyone else. I offered up my finishing schedule just as an option for those that might want to try it. I'm weird in that I learned wood working backwards and could lay down a smooth finish before I even knew what a rabbet cut was. Most woodworkers I know hate the finishing part where as I don't mind it a bit. Helps to understand WHY you do things rather than just do them.
Good example: 3M heavy cut polishing compound is designed specifically to buff out 1200 grit sanding lines. Why bother sanding up to some insanely high grit just to hit it with a polishin compound designed to smooth out a lower one? If you stop at 1200 or let's even say 2000... you can let the polish do the job the rest of the way. From there you use a finer polish and a softer pad and you're done.
NLAlston
Member
Believe me, I took NO offense in what you had written. In fact, reading back over my post, I can see how the spirit - on what I had responded - could easily have been misconstrued
.As already had been mentioned, I am relatively new to this game. I have tried a few different methods for finishing, and the best one (thus far) is the one that I presently use. Time tested? No. I have done this, anywhere long enough, to have put pens out there - and have someone come back to me, months (or more) later, to comment on how nicely the pen STILL looks. THAT'S the kind of finishing technique that I wish to learn, and adopt.
I've read over YOUR technique, and can say that I am, particularly, drawn to it. I really appreciate your putting it out there, and think that it just may be the ticket, for me.
Woodchipper
Member
mackenziedrums, what kind of glove do you wear while the lathe is turning? Curious. I use paper towels to apply CA, no gloves near any moving machinery.
McKenzie Penworks
Member
Nitrile, I've actually gone to using a single finger cot. It won't bond to the pen like a paper towel can. At 500 rpm's you're not going to lose a finger. (Move the rest just to be safe)
Woodchipper
Member
Thanks for the clarification.
Woodchipper
Member
Reviewed this thread for info on finishing. Couldn't find anything on EEE. Exactly what is it?
its paste wax with Tripoli (get it, "triple E"). With respect to CA finish, you can effectively use it in place of micromesh or buffing. As was described in some of the responses, the wax will wear off and scratches will start to show. Also, the recommendation to to clean off the wax with DNA worked for me, this showed how clean the finish was minus the wax.
The EEE is good for bowl turners and as a prep step for friction polish. Here is the product website: EEE-Ultra Shine (cut 'n' polish paste wax)
The EEE is good for bowl turners and as a prep step for friction polish. Here is the product website: EEE-Ultra Shine (cut 'n' polish paste wax)
Woodchipper
Member
Thanks.