CA - convince me!

[Maverick KB]

I have been turning pens for about 2 years or so now. When I first started, I used a CA finish as that was what everyone was doing. I abandoned the CA finish a while back and for the last year have been working my own process.
1. Sanding to high grit (typically 500 or better depending on material)
2. Use sanding sealer (went through several before settling on Mylands due to clarity mostly)
3. Microcrystaline polish (as needed, often skipped)
4. Friction polish (1-3 layers)
5. Renaissance Wax
6. Buffing with microfiber cloth while still on lathe

I find this process to retain more of the natural beauty of the wood without making it look plastic. I also find that while it will wear off faster, sealing the wood first with sanding sealer (and occasionally other penetrating oils) allows for followup waxing and maintenance but still protects the wood quite well from finger oils and such.

I don't like how my earlier pens with CA finish all show scrapes, scuffs, cracks in the CA and normal wear and tear from being in the pocket or purse make the pen look horrible. Using a shellac and wax has held up quite well to pocket carry and purse carry (I keep my wife well stocked in amazing pens).

So, my question/challenge to all of you that swear by CA... Convince me. Where am I going wrong? Where have I made assumptions? Is there a way to use a CA finish that is durable against day to day use and abuse? How do I tell a client how to maintain a beautiful finish for many years with CA when they can't service it or polish it? I can suggest several furniture waxes without abrasives that will restore the luster of the original finish on my pens, but not so much with CA.

The floor is open, please educate me. Opinions are always welcome and experience is invaluable, however anything that can be backed with facts or references is appreciated (I don't mind reading and doing some research on my own too).

Thanks in advance!!

 

[jttheclockman]

The simple answer is you don't. You have found a finish and system that works for you and you are happy with it. No one person is going to convince you otherwise. The reason is we all apply CA in different methods. CA is like an acrylic. If CA scratches as you say so will, any other acrylic pen you make. Is one CA harder than another and thus scratch proof, well I would say save your pennies and start buying all the brands out there and you will have to test for yourself.

What I would do is instruct your clients that they are buying a piece of art. They are not bic pens that you throw around. Better handle and it will look great for years. I have pens I have been using for years and are normal wear and were finished with CA and look just as great. The platings are more of a concern with me.

Good luck.

 

[Dan Masshardt]

What product is your friction polish in step 4?

 

[Maverick KB]

John,
Thanks for the reply. I'm not likely to abandon my methods completely, but there have been some instances recently where I contemplated using a CA finish or similar as it would be much better protection against moisture and such, or in cases where I'm working an inlay of stone powder and the CA impregnates the surrounding wood. Using a CA finish or at least a layer here would provide a more uniform appearance over all. So I guess I'm not looking to replace what I'm doing, but expand my knowledge and ability based on the input and success of others.

I'm not a huge fan of acrylic, but I do work with it and have not had scratching issues. I typically work with Alumilite almost exclusively and cast my own from time to time, perhaps the lack of PR is affecting my good results, but that's likely to start another fire of a conversation.

You've had CA finish last for years, so your experience is valued and proof that it is possible. Perhaps it was my application or choice of CA.

I guess I'm still just very curious as to why it's so popular and widely used... is it following status quo, personal preference or ... what is it about CA that so many are in love with?

I do instruct my clients they are buying a work of art and include a care sheet with each one. Normal cautions, don't leave it in your car, outside, in direct sunlight etc. Putting it in your pocket or purse will wear it out faster. Platings will wear with time and general care and maintenance with some suggested furniture polish that will help restore the shine and protect from skin oils and day to day... Pretty standard for all pens we make really, except for the furniture polish which doesn't work for every style of finish.

Thanks again for the reply.

 

[Maverick KB]

What product is your friction polish in step 4?

I've gone through a few, but lately I've been using Doctor's Woodshop. I've found Shellawax to be useful at times, but it has a tendency to be a bit gummy and works better on larger projects (such as bowls or wine bottle stoppers). I have also started playing around with making my own using a 1lb shellac as a base, but I haven't perfected the recipe yet. Rest assured, when I do I'll be writing it up for the Library here.

 

[jttheclockman]

Ken

You are asking a question that has been asked by woodworkers for longer than you and I have been alive. The finding of a perfect finish for pens has been asked since I have been here 11 years and counting. This is why you see new products come to market all the time and they become all the rage but people move on and try something else. Again that perfect finish is not out there. You find something that works for you and what your eye is telling you. Clients will tell you if what you have is a good thing by sales. There are those that want that feel of wood when buying wood pens but there are those that want that protection and deep look of a good finish. Waxing can take out scratches in any finish.

You ask why is it so popular and why do people use it. It is a proven finish that stands the test of time. yes it can be finicky to apply but when done it shows depth to wood. It can be a fast finish to apply. It is durable and with wood it seals the wood and controls the moisture. Just some thoughts

You want to try to improve on your CA finish. Well again ask 100 people and you will get 200 answers. This is not a cop out or a degrading answer and please do not take it as one. I use Satelite CA. I use 3 coats of thin to seal the wood. Then 4-6 coats med CA. I sand and polish with MM pads as many do. I do wet sand (some people do not). The final thing I put on my pens is Renaissance wax for finger print protection. Many methods and many different CA used. Hopefully someone will come with a better answer for you. Take care and happy turning.

 

[Dan Masshardt]

Pens plus is the best of the friction finishes for me. I use it. I like it.


That said, I can't get it to match ca for depth on high end pens.

What I'm currently experirimenting with is a ca / pens plus combo process.

I'm not sure what you're asking about maintenance on ca pens. They hold up well for me without maintenance.

 

[Ed McDonnell]

Biased personal opinion follows (regarding wood pen finishes):

CA is a good finish choice when you want to quickly produce a high gloss finish that will likely last at least until you can sell / give away the pen. If it took a couple days to complete a CA finish on a pen I doubt anyone would be using it.

If you are willing / able to spend a day or three on your pen finish, there are better choices for a high gloss finish in my opinion. Very few people are willing to invest this kind of time in finishing their pens.

Additional biased opinions on finishing thrown in for free :biggrin::

A gloss finish that looks like plastic is probably a poorly done gloss finish. A gloss finish that looks like glass may not be everyone's preference, but was probably done well.

Ed

 

[Maverick KB]

John,
Thanks again. I realize it hearkens on the age old question of what's the best finish, but as you said you find something that works for you.

Dan,
I'll have to give Pens Plus a go sometime. I love my finish and as John pointed out, the feel of wood on a wood pen is something I personally enjoy. Like you though, I can't quite get that depth of finish for quality pens. I've gotten close by using just shellac 1lb and 2lb mixes instead of friction polish. I seal them first with sanding sealer or a penetrating oil and then use the shellac over the top. The friction polish in essence combines these two steps in one, so separating them out has given me more depth closer to CA.

I'm getting the feeling there was probably something wrong in my application or choice of products when I was using a CA finish that yielded such issues over time.

I've attached an older pen showing some of the issues I've seen.

 

[Maverick KB]

If you are willing / able to spend a day or three on your pen finish, there are better choices for a high gloss finish in my opinion.
Ed

Such as? In your most highly regarded opinion of course...

 

[Ed McDonnell]

Hi Ken - If you have the time (and are willing to invest it in a pen finish), then more traditional wood finishes (polyurethanes / lacquers) can give super looking and very durable high gloss results. They can still be dinged up by abusive treatment (just like fine furniture), but in my experience are more durable than CA over time.

I'm partial to the lacquers because they polish easier than polyurethanes, but the fumes are a major drawback.

Another alternative is encapsulation in a clear resin.

Ed

 

[Maverick KB]

Thanks Ed.
I've been debating on trying out some dip finishes as soon as I finish making my setup for this. I'm working on figuring out the best material for a vessel to hold the finish and something like a threaded mandrel for dipping made from a dense plastic like like Polycarbonate or PTFE.

 

[jttheclockman]

Ken

What you are trying for is basically 2 different finishes. You want a finish that is tough yet lets you feel the wood grain. The only finish like this I found is Danish oil. I use it all the time on my woodworking projects, from shelves to clocks. But the difference here is they do not get abused and handled like a pen. But the combination of the penetrating oils and the mixture of Polyurethane is superb for that touching warm glow feel. I love it. But will never use on my pens unless someone asks for that feel the wood pen.

As Ed said you can go lacquers or polys. The difference is the way they layer. I have stated this before here. Lacquers will give you a much better deeper looking finish and is very very durable. Easy to fix also. Lacquers layers melt into each other thus creating that deep look.

With polys the layers lay on top of each other and you have to wait for each layer to dry to apply another layer. This look can give a cloudy more layered look. In my opinion.

How they are applied is another choice thing. You can do the spray on, the dip and the wipe on. All have advantages and disadvantages.

To take to another level you can use an epoxy finish. This is best done with a drying wheel. Such as this. This will allow the finish to not drip or run and will self level. Can be used with the above finishes also. Actually a nice tool to have. I use mine.

Flex Coat Complete Wrapping Motor

All finishes can be polished to that mirror shine. They can be cut back to a more subtle shine too. Finishing is an art in woodworking and basically you are using a piece of wood so rules apply. The shellac and sanding sealer are just sealers and not a finish. You rely on a wax that is not very durable at all. No wax is. To encapsulate a pen blank the choices are as mentioned. but there are all kinds of products within that type of finish. Ed mentions fumes on lacquers. I use waterbased lacquers and the fumes are no wheres near as bad as Nitros.

There are many videos of applying any finish you want on the net. practice can not be overlooked though. Developing your own technique can not be taught. That is an individual thing. Only suggestions and other people's methods can be printed. Good luck and if you find that perfect finish please share with the world.

 

[CREID]

Many people here don't use CA. Everyone uses the finish they prefer. I wouldn't even think of trying to convince you to change.

 

[Maverick KB]

Even more great info! I love it!
soaking all this up like a sponge!

One day, I'll find that perfect finish... perhaps this should be my new signature...

 

[mark james]

After have some problems with Pens Plus, last month I started to play with Wipe on Polyurethane. I have used it for my last three pens and really like it. But... I did wait 2-3 hours between coats, finishing over 2 days.

 

[triw51]

You asked why so many pen turners use CA.
I have played around with several finishes and my favorite is a BLO/CA finish. I read several years ago that when BLO and CA are combined with heat (from friction) it forms a polymer and I have had no problems or complaints on the finish. In mho it does not look plastic or fake. Just my 2 cents.

 

[1080Wayne]

Looked at your CA pen photo . Don`t know what would have caused that deterioration , but it certainly is not typical of wear on a CA finish in my experience .

 

[Wildman]

Like others have said if you are happy with your finish & technique stay with it. Agree with Ed McDonnell if any film forming finish looks like plastic when done probably something wrong! Also agree with John about oil varnish/poly finishes.

Only two oils would consider putting on a pen are Tung or Walnut oil but have not. Tung Oil takes several coats and has a long drying time between coats. Same with Walnut oil but does not offer same protection.

Several film finishes can provide look & feel of wood without masking grain or figure. Not a big fan of sanding or sealer other sealers anymore have used them in the past. Wax just a decoration and not part of my finishing sequence for a pen.

How to change a refill only maintenance provide buyers or gift recipients. When asked about durability of plating or finish simply say depends on use. Eventually both will fail. Only complaints ever received were about loss or stolen pens. Offering those people opportunity to buy another pen at a discount usually led to additional sales.

JMHO, pens are consumable tool so keeping sales pitch simple keeps you from buying your product back.

 

[nava1uni]

I am now seeing pens that I made many years ago and the CA is looking weathered. I actually prefer something other the CA.

 

[JimB]

After have some problems with Pens Plus, last month I started to play with Wipe on Polyurethane. I have used it for my last three pens and really like it. But... I did wait 2-3 hours between coats, finishing over 2 days.

I use WOP on most of my pens. I wait over night between coats.

 

[randyrls]

I find this process to retain more of the natural beauty of the wood without making it look plastic.

Kenneth; Like You, I prefer a natural look and feel on wood. I finish with CA, but only a thin coat. I don't build up a thick finish layer.

Instead of a high gloss polish, I use 0000 steel wool as the final finishing / polishing step. This gives a natural wood look and feel.

 

[Maverick KB]

Wow! Great feedback! I've been finishing up an entry for the Bash and trying to match Pen to Penmaker... certainly a challenging one this year.

Mark, That's a great looking pen!

William, I'd love to pick your brain sometime about metal working. BLO/CA I believe is one of Bill Young's techniques too... I hadn't heard about a chemical reaction between the two, only that the BLO served to "lube" the CA and allow for smoother application. I shall have to research more on this.

Wildman, I like your style. I'm taking notes on your sales pitch. The no nonsense approach does seem a little better than what I've been doing. Easier too.

I was kind of expecting to see more pitchforks and torches show up, but instead it's kind of refreshing. All this time I was wondering if it was just me (and it probably is to some extent), but I don't think I'm going to go jumping back on the CA bandwagon anytime soon. I'd rather spend a week on a pen to get the finish right than to risk it or foray into something I'm not comfortable with. I'm certainly going to start experimenting though as my finish isn't as durable or protective as it could be.

Thanks everyone for the input. I've got lots of new ideas to try out now that I'm finally done bleeding over this Bash entry. On a side note, if you've never done kitless before - 1 week before deadline is not the time to start! But hey, it's been a great learning experience and so has this thread. Thank you all.

 

[robertkulp]

While you can certainly use CA for a high-build, glass like finish, you can also easily achieve a satin finish that still feels like wood. My daily carry pen has been a Bolt Action with piece of poplar that I stabilized and finished with BLO and 5-6 coats of thin Mercury Adhesives CA. It has a smooth, satin finish that has held up better than the pen's hardware. It's been dropped on concrete and asphalt several times and still looks great. Best of all, it still feels like wood.

CA can be used for far more than a high gloss, glass like finish. You can go from, matte, to satin, and all the way to high gloss. I don't know of any other finish with that range of gloss (or lack of it), durability, and ease of application.

As far as long term durability, I'm hard on my carry pens with several of them having various dents and dings, but I've never had any cracks or "shattered glass" problems. I know what works for me and I'm sticking with it.

 

[Maverick KB]

As far as long term durability, I'm hard on my carry pens with several of them having various dents and dings, but I've never had any cracks or "shattered glass" problems. I know what works for me and I'm sticking with it.

Robert, I've admired some of your work for a while now and it certainly works for you, no doubt about that. I'm absolutely in love with your USMC laser engraved Bolt Action btw. As a former Marine myself, it stands out.

Dents and dings without cracking the CA finish... That is something to convince me. I may give BLO/Mercury Adhesives a look. Seems there might be something to this BLO/CA stuff. You said 5-6 coats of thin, you ever used the thicker CA? I'm starting to wonder if that may be where I got the "cracked glass" issues. Too thick & poor novice application. Or perhaps just a bad choice of brand for finish work.

While I will probably not use CA all the time or possibly not even very often, it's one of those things I'd like to have as a viable option, if I can master the durability and application as you and several others have done. Thank you for the input.

 

[robertkulp]

Maverick - Thank you for the compliment on the USMC Bolt Actions. I can't really take the credit for that, though. Those blanks are done by Scott Lincoln in Clinton, WA. His work is at Fine Wood Pens.

As for the CA, there's a huge difference between brands of CA. Some are inherently more brittle than others. There's also a difference between accelerators. The three main chemicals used are Acetone, Heptane, and Naphtha. Acetone is a very aggressive accelerator and can cause the CA to cure too rapidly; increasing its brittleness. One brand of CA, Stick Fast, has a bad reputation of cracking and "shattering" on its own, without the pen being dropped or abused.

I have a pen of spalted koa that I should have stabilized, but didn't. I dropped the pen and it hit the sharp of a metal keyboard tray for my office computer. This pen has a high gloss finish, but even though there was a dent in the CA (the wood actually dented) there was no other apparent damage to finish. The CA didn't crack or chip.

Not many pen turners have heard of Mercury CA, but I accidentally ran across it a couple of years ago. I liked it so well that I began selling it on my pen's web site. Please forgive my commercial plug, but I have a couple of ads in the Premium Classifieds. 10% for the Bash in February.

 

[Maverick KB]

Interesting... This is more of the conversation I hadn't found searching through the ever growing number of threads debating finishes.

If memory serves, I might have been using Stick Fast at the time. I'm sure I had some around at least. More than likely it was the the Stick Fast starter kit from Woodcraft I got when I was first starting out... it's starting to make more sense now.

 

[JimB]

Interesting... This is more of the conversation I hadn't found searching through the ever growing number of threads debating finishes.

If memory serves, I might have been using Stick Fast at the time. I'm sure I had some around at least. More than likely it was the the Stick Fast starter kit from Woodcraft I got when I was first starting out... it's starting to make more sense now.

Also, use thin or medium. Many people do a coat or two of thin first and then some medium coats. Don't use thick as that creates multiple problems.

 

[Maverick KB]

Noted. Thanks.

 

[robertkulp]

Yes - What JimB said. I use 3-4 coats of thin and then 3-5 coats of medium for a gloss finish. I'll double the thin coats and maybe use just one coat of medium for a satin finish, but I've never used thick for a finish.

 

[TonyW]

Ken

What you are trying for is basically 2 different finishes. You want a finish that is tough yet lets you feel the wood grain. The only finish like this I found is Danish oil. I use it all the time on my woodworking projects, from shelves to clocks. But the difference here is they do not get abused and handled like a pen. But the combination of the penetrating oils and the mixture of Polyurethane is superb for that touching warm glow feel. I love it. But will never use on my pens unless someone asks for that feel the wood pen.

As Ed said you can go lacquers or polys. The difference is the way they layer. I have stated this before here. Lacquers will give you a much better deeper looking finish and is very very durable. Easy to fix also. Lacquers layers melt into each other thus creating that deep look.

With polys the layers lay on top of each other and you have to wait for each layer to dry to apply another layer. This look can give a cloudy more layered look. In my opinion.

How they are applied is another choice thing. You can do the spray on, the dip and the wipe on. All have advantages and disadvantages.

To take to another level you can use an epoxy finish. This is best done with a drying wheel. Such as this. This will allow the finish to not drip or run and will self level. Can be used with the above finishes also. Actually a nice tool to have. I use mine.

Flex Coat Complete Wrapping Motor

All finishes can be polished to that mirror shine. They can be cut back to a more subtle shine too. Finishing is an art in woodworking and basically you are using a piece of wood so rules apply. The shellac and sanding sealer are just sealers and not a finish. You rely on a wax that is not very durable at all. No wax is. To encapsulate a pen blank the choices are as mentioned. but there are all kinds of products within that type of finish. Ed mentions fumes on lacquers. I use waterbased lacquers and the fumes are no wheres near as bad as Nitros.

There are many videos of applying any finish you want on the net. practice can not be overlooked though. Developing your own technique can not be taught. That is an individual thing. Only suggestions and other people's methods can be printed. Good luck and if you find that perfect finish please share with the world.

Hello John,

As this wrapping motor just looks to be from a small domestic sewing machine, down to the foot pedal, how does the chuck hold pens please? I did try a search on wrapping motors, but with little success.

TonyW

 

[kyaggie]

Here is another option for a finish and one that is my goto finish now. As a disclaimer, I am not a fan of the thick buildup, glass/plastic look of a full blown CA finish but instead like a gloss finish that lets the wood still feel and look like wood.

So here is what I do... after sanding with 400 grit sandpaper, at 500 rpm I do a soaking coat of thin CA (as in delay the accelerator to let the wood soak in all the CA it wants). After that I hit it with accelerator and sand down with a 500 grit Abralon pad to ensure that everything is nice and smooth and flat. Now, still at 500 rpm, I apply 5 to 6 coats of gloss Craft Coat (available at Exotic Blanks) using the same saturated portion of a blue shop paper towel waiting 1 minute between coats. After the last coat, I let it sit for 5 minutes to more completely cure before I remove it from the lathe. I usually let it continue to cure for about an hour before I handle it enough to do the hardware assembly.

From the manufacturer, "Craft Coat is a waterborne linseed oil modified wood finish that self-crosslinks when exposed to oxygen to develop an extremely durable film that exhibits outstanding scratch, mar, water, and chemical resistance." The rest of their description says that it is a modified polyurethane based finish.

The CA gives a nice hard base as well as really making the grain and color "pop." The Craft Coat then gives a very durable, hard, water resistant high gloss finish without the "plastic" look of CA.

Here are some recent utensils, mills and a Desire fountain pen using this method.

Mike

 

[robertkulp]

I also like the look of General's Wood Turners Finish. WTF provides a thin, but very durable gloss finish, but it takes longer than CA to apply and dry.

 

[jttheclockman]

Tony the link I provided was just an example of a drying motor set up. That one was way too expensive for what we do. You can buy the parts from just about any fishing supply house or even on ebay or amazon. Very cheap for what we do. Here is one. The chuck is a 3 point chuck but plastic. It turns down to whatever size is needed. The other end is just a set of wheels. What I do is go to home depot and buy a bunch of those land boundry markers that are fiberglass and come in colors such as red and yellow. I cut to whatever length I want. I even use them when I make a bunch of my braided blanks and let them dry on a rack that I built. Small and simple.

Now keep in mind this was in answer to the OP question about using a drip method to apply finish and need a way to let it dry. This is for apply things like an epoxy finish also or even CA. But you can not sand or put any heavy pressure on it. It turns at 9RPM's A slow drying motor set up for what we do. Hope that is clear.

Here is the link.

www.amazon.com/dp/B00AEBEIIK/ref=as...SIN=B00AEBEIIK&ascsubtag=-8934393973447573798

 

[Whitehat1994]

View attachment WoodFinishingGuide.pdf

View attachment oil_finishes.pdf

I use CA most of the time for durability and gloss shine, and at times I General Finishes Penturners Finish,

I recently read the attach articles just because.

 

[Maverick KB]

Here is another option for a finish and one that is my goto finish now. As a disclaimer, I am not a fan of the thick buildup, glass/plastic look of a full blown CA finish but instead like a gloss finish that lets the wood still feel and look like wood.

So here is what I do... after sanding with 400 grit sandpaper, at 500 rpm I do a soaking coat of thin CA (as in delay the accelerator to let the wood soak in all the CA it wants). After that I hit it with accelerator and sand down with a 500 grit Abralon pad to ensure that everything is nice and smooth and flat. Now, still at 500 rpm, I apply 5 to 6 coats of gloss Craft Coat (available at Exotic Blanks) using the same saturated portion of a blue shop paper towel waiting 1 minute between coats. After the last coat, I let it sit for 5 minutes to more completely cure before I remove it from the lathe. I usually let it continue to cure for about an hour before I handle it enough to do the hardware assembly.

From the manufacturer, "Craft Coat is a waterborne linseed oil modified wood finish that self-crosslinks when exposed to oxygen to develop an extremely durable film that exhibits outstanding scratch, mar, water, and chemical resistance." The rest of their description says that it is a modified polyurethane based finish.

The CA gives a nice hard base as well as really making the grain and color "pop." The Craft Coat then gives a very durable, hard, water resistant high gloss finish without the "plastic" look of CA.

Here are some recent utensils, mills and a Desire fountain pen using this method.

Mike

Mike, Those look great! I like how you're using CA as a base but not the actual finish here. There are certainly many materials out there that would benefit from the sort of "stabilization" it provides. This certainly gives me something more to ponder.

 

[Dan Masshardt]

I used a method I've been trying lately similar in that I use ca as a base and then use pens plus.

It seems to work quite well.

 

[moke]

Jtthclockman,
Quite a few years ago, if memory serves me, someone was using a home made "grilling spit" motor for drying.....If I recall, he used a HF pry bar as an input into the motor, but I forget the rest....
I tried to search but could not find anything....I really don't do a lot of wood, but I would like to use it in some segmenting so WOP interests me....
Anybody recall this at all?

 

[jttheclockman]

Jtthclockman,
Quite a few years ago, if memory serves me, someone was using a home made "grilling spit" motor for drying.....If I recall, he used a HF pry bar as an input into the motor, but I forget the rest....
I tried to search but could not find anything....I really don't do a lot of wood, but I would like to use it in some segmenting so WOP interests me....
Anybody recall this at all?

Hello Mike

I do recall something on those lines but if memory serves me I read this on another forum possibly a turning forum. I would say if you have one lying around I am sure you could adapt something. They do spin slow enough and that is the whole idea. Do not want the finish to settle or run. The one I show from Amazon is cheap enough and maybe HF even has something. I never checked it out. I got my from Mudhole when I started to think about doing thread tying. I just decided I could also use it for applying epoxy to my braid blanks I make. Works good. What I like it has a chuck already on it so no jury rigging needed.

I have used wipe-on poly for other woodworking projects and the best product I found was Formbys. I installed oak doors and woodwork in my house and used their polurethane for the top coat on all woodwork and doors. Goes on thin but dried hard and was a nice warm glow and feel. I am not sure if they still make this. It has been a long time since I bought some. I still have pints from many years ago and still much in working condition. I do buy their lemmon oil and i use that for polishing woodwork projects with MM.

 

[moke]

Thanks John....
I love to "invent" things....with a certain amount of theft of ideas that is!!! I think that I will try that...although Kyaggie, that is an awesome finish.
Sorry Maverick, it was not my intention to hijack your thread....