Triple and Quad Tap and Die

[jyreene]

Hello All,

I've finally decided to look into getting triple start taps and dies (I know Mike Redburn usually has the triples but I also wanted the quads). That said I've got a quote on both triple and quadruple start threads. I want to see if anyone is up for a group purchase of three sizes in each M10-.75, M12-.8, and M14-.8 in both triple and quad.

Quote (only putting in the amount for 12 each) I got was:

[FONT=&quot]M10-.75 triple lead tap: 12pc 41.70ea[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]M10-.75 quad lead tap: 12pc 48.40ea[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]M10-.75 Triple lead HS 1"OD Die: 12pc 45.50ea[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]M10-.75 quad lead HS 1"OD: 12pc 58.80ea (one time tooling charge of $78 that I would split 12 ways)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]M12-.8 triple lead tap: 12pc 51.15ea[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]M12-.8 quad lead tap: 12pc 59.29ea[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]M12-.8 triple lead HS 1"OD Die: 12pc 53.20ea[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]M12-.8 quad lead HS 1"OD Die: 12pc 58.80ea [/FONT][FONT=&quot](one time tooling charge of $80 that I would split 12 ways)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]M14-.8 triple lead tap: 12pc 53.13ea[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]M14-.8 quad lead tap: 12pc 64.35[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]M14-.8 triple lead HS 1 1/2"OD Die: 12pc 62.40ea[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]M14-.8 quad lead HS 1 1/2"OD Die: 12pc 67.60ea [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot](one time tooling charge of $80 that I would split 12 ways)[/FONT]

I'm not totally sold on getting the M14s because I don't really want to buy a new die holder but that won't stop me if there is enough interest. Can we get 11 of each (I'm sure more would make i even better).

 

[duncsuss]

Ty,

No way I can afford to sign up for all of these, but I can see myself getting the M12 in either triple-start or quad-start sometime soon (but not both).

Duncan

 

[Dan Masshardt]

Why would you want both triple and quad?

 

[jyreene]

I foresee different applications for both but all for component/kit-less pens. Quad will thread that much quicker but won't be right for all pens.

 

[lorbay]

Why would you want both triple and quad?

Because you can.
Lin.

 

[Dan Masshardt]

Because you can. Lin.

You can have lots of things if you want to spend the money.

I'm truly speaking in ignorance, but if you had a quad start, why would you opt to use the triple instead in the same size?

If you were using existing component parts I can see why.

 

[skiprat]

I reckon the quad start ones will create problems. Due to the steep helix angle, the caps may come loose too easily. I think there used to be a kit with quad threads and it had the same issue.

Personally, I think multi start threads are overrated.
I believe that multi starts were originally used so that the old plastic and ebonite threaded caps didn't get so much force that they would crack.

Some say that the reason was simply so there was less turns to get the cap on or off. I don't think so.:wink:

 

[jyreene]

I reckon the quad start ones will create problems. Due to the steep helix angle, the caps may come loose too easily. I think there used to be a kit with quad threads and it had the same issue.

Personally, I think multi start threads are overrated.
I believe that multi starts were originally used so that the old plastic and ebonite threaded caps didn't get so much force that they would crack.

Some say that the reason was simply so there was less turns to get the cap on or off. I don't think so.:wink:

So what you're saying is only get one of them....

 

[skiprat]

Me? I would go for 2 starts. :wink:

 

[jyreene]

Me? I would go for 2 starts. :wink:

Yes but you also make your own! And one for me too.... hint hint....

 

[duncsuss]

Ty -- sorry, but this thread appears to have gone into a death-spiral.

If it ever gets back on track, shoot me a message here (or through FB) ...

 

[jyreene]

Duncan is right, anyone interested other than Duncan and I?

 

[skiprat]

Deleted my discussion. Apologies if I took it into a death spiral...:redface:

 

[jyreene]

Steven, I have a metal lathe....It's not a good one and I also don't know how to use it. I've seen your posts on how to make threads and what not. They make sense but my lathe barely cuts bronze...

I probably won't get all of them. I do have the single start but I've had a few friends (I won't say customers because I only really care if I can keep up the hobby and maybe get more into more advanced tooling) say that they wish the caps threaded faster. I've used a friends triples and I liked them. Never though of doubles honestly.

In the end I plan on buying the 12 quad and triple and maybe the 10 triple. Not trying to take a shortcut per say but I do know my shop time is extremely limited with three young ones.

I'd honestly love to come visit you in your skip in Wales (promise there aren't many sheep...I was stationed in Harrogate and I heard nothing but Welsh jokes...plus my ex wife was Welsh) and learn from a master. Plus England is awesome.

 

[BSea]

Just out of curiosity, what do you use the 10m triple for?

 

[Rich L]

I reckon the quad start ones will create problems. Due to the steep helix angle, the caps may come loose too easily. I think there used to be a kit with quad threads and it had the same issue.
...

That's exactly right. Unless the part of the pen (usually the front part of the section or some shoulder) is contacting a shallow taper then you will run the risk of the cap coming loose. Your mileage will vary but that's maybe a consideration. I never bottom out on threads - always a shoulder.

Unless you really must cover distance perhaps the multi-start approach is overkill. I've seen many pens that have a well-designed ~60% single start thread that has 1 1/4 turns. Almost looks like an Acme thread.

Cheers,
Rich

 

[jyreene]

Ultra thin pens honestly.

 

[jj9ball]

I would be in for the 14mm triple and possibly the 12mm triple. Just send me a message if you get enough to do an order. On a side note the four start would probably break a lot of the pens I make when I threaded them. I use a 13mm triple and even though its dripping in Pam when I start I always feel like I'm about to twist the tenon off... its probably just me. Let me know if you get the order going and thanks ahead of time for looking into this.
Jeff.

PS I really need triples I have thread OCD. The pen in my pocket takes 8 turns to connect to the body. I'm always afraid that I don't have enough threads... really wierd

 

[edstreet]

I reckon the quad start ones will create problems. Due to the steep helix angle, the caps may come loose too easily. I think there used to be a kit with quad threads and it had the same issue.
...

That's exactly right. Unless the part of the pen (usually the front part of the section or some shoulder) is contacting a shallow taper then you will run the risk of the cap coming loose. Your mileage will vary but that's maybe a consideration. I never bottom out on threads - always a shoulder.

Unless you really must cover distance perhaps the multi-start approach is overkill. I've seen many pens that have a well-designed ~60% single start thread that has 1 1/4 turns. Almost looks like an Acme thread.

Cheers,
Rich

Both of you are wrong. There are Japanese master's that use quad starts and they do not have these problems. They have been doing this for decades now.


jyreene,

I would like a quad set, also would not hurt to have a 2 lead set. Also 12mm, maybe 10mm. Not much cost diff in the 10mm and 12mm.

 

[Dan Masshardt]

Both of you are wrong. There are Japanese master's that use quad starts and they do not have these problems. They have been doing this for decades now. jyreene, I would like a quad set, also would not hurt to have a 2 lead set. Also 12mm, maybe 10mm. Not much cost diff in the 10mm and 12mm.

Those guys don't use taps and dies though, right?

 

[Rich L]

I reckon the quad start ones will create problems. Due to the steep helix angle, the caps may come loose too easily. I think there used to be a kit with quad threads and it had the same issue.
...

That's exactly right. Unless the part of the pen (usually the front part of the section or some shoulder) is contacting a shallow taper then you will run the risk of the cap coming loose. Your mileage will vary but that's maybe a consideration. I never bottom out on threads - always a shoulder.

Unless you really must cover distance perhaps the multi-start approach is overkill. I've seen many pens that have a well-designed ~60% single start thread that has 1 1/4 turns. Almost looks like an Acme thread.

Cheers,
Rich

Both of you are wrong. There are Japanese master's that use quad starts and they do not have these problems. They have been doing this for decades now.

That's kind of an irritating post. I said "your mileage will vary" and "you will run risk" and if you don't know what that means, it means that it's not categorically true. To say that we're wrong, without asking what our experience is or presuming we have experience with this phenomenon, is wrong. I know people do it. I've done it and depending on design and materials, one can have a problem. Sheesh!

There's nothing "wrong" with 4-start threads - you just need to know what you're batting with. I'll exit now.

Ty, sorry I rained on your thread. I hope you're successful with your group buy. I'll exit now.

 

[Curly]

Since I have triples in 10, 11, 12, 13 & 14 I won't be a player in this buy........unless a 15 triple set comes into being.

From what I've seen of the Japanese Masters on the web, they hand chase the threads with what appear to be a very slight taper to them, a little like oil drilling pipes are connected. That allows them to fine tune the fit to snug up tight while still being easy to remove.

 

[jyreene]

Getting a quote in doubles too now.

 

[SteveG]

I would join in the purchase of the M10 Triple tap and die.

 

[jyreene]

Got the quote back for the doubles:

[FONT=&quot]M10-.75 Double lead tap 12pc 34.98ea[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]M10-75 Double Lead HS 1"OD Die 12pc 49.00ea[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] ( net tooling charge for Double Lead Die M10-.75 $ 67.00)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]M12-.8 Double lead tap 12pc 42.90ea[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]M12-.8 Double Lead HS 1"OD Die 12pc 45.50ea[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] (net tooling for Double lead M12-.8 HS 1"OD Die $70.00 )[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]M14-.8 Double lead Tap 12pc 44.84ea[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]M14-.8 Double Lead HS 1 1/2"OD Die 12pc 57.20ea[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] ( net tooling charge for Double lead M14-.8 HS 1 1/2"OD Die $70.00)[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

 

[edstreet]

10mm or 12mm in double would be epic

 

[jyreene]

I'd be willing to forgo the quad and replace with a 12 and maybe a 10 double. I'm still in for at least a 12 triple.

 

[SteveG]

Now that the idea of a "double" has come up. I would switch from my "triple" (post 24) to a double.

 

[jyreene]

Anyone else? I'll keep this thread alive for a bit longer.

 

[ChrisN]

I'd be in for a set of 10s and 12s in double. I haven't gotten into kitless pens... yet.:wink::biggrin:

 

[duncsuss]

Ty -

M12 x 0.8 x double start set (tap and die) works for me -- hope you get enough signed up to make it viable.

 

[jyreene]

So far we have 4 four M10 double and 4 for M12 double. There are some for the others but that's the biggest numbers we have. The quote is good or a while so I'll keep this post going like I said.

 

[beck3906]

I would be in for a set of M10 and M12 doubles.

 

[RDH79]

I would also take a set of 10s and a set of 12s in the double start.
Rich H

 

[jyreene]

Any and all are welcome. Overseas as well. I don't know all shipping prices but if you are willing to cover what shipping would be from Augusta, Georgia to your mailing address I will ship there (assuming it's legal but since these are just taps and dies I can't imagine it would be contraband).

 

[edstreet]

if tap and dies are contraband then I guess they will be screwed. Pun intended

 

[jyreene]

if tap and dies are contraband then I guess they will be screwed. Pun intended

Ha! Nice Ed. Both my wife and I laughed at that.

 

[seamus7227]

I would be in for a set of 10's and 12's in the double.

 

[jyreene]

So far we've got 7 of the M10 and 7 of the M12 in double. Looks like the Triples and the Quads are not going to happen. That said I still want to keep at least the M12 Triple (since it's the next fullest with 2 (possibly 3)) open since I need one but now we'll concentrate on the M10 and M12 Doubles.

There is one overseas, UK, interested but shipping is up there. Small Flat Rate box is $25 so if there is more than one over there it might be cheaper to send the one box to one individual and have them ship it out from there.

 

[Signguy]

I would do the M10 and M12 double.