Tap and die sets in triple/double start

[wwneko]

I'm looking onto doing a group buy on some double/triple start taps and dies.

The cost will be a MINIMUM of 111$ for a set, which includes one tap and one die. That price is with a qty of 12 of the same size as of the last group buy like this, so likely it could be more.

Who would be interested and what size would you want? Double or triple start? If there is only enough interest in one of the sizes, that is the size we will go with. I'm particularly interested in 11mm and 13mm triples, but would settle on doubles. Pitch will be .8 or 1.0.

 

[magpens]

I am interested in 11mm and 13mm triples with 0.8 or .75 pitch. If the group decides on doubles, I MIGHT be interested, just might.

Also interested in 9mm 0.75 single.

 

[beck3906]

Linter rated in different sizes. Let's see what others suggest

 

[wwneko]

Any interest in a M10 x .75 double or triple set? I think this is the smallest you can safely go with a #5 nib/section. You could use an 8mm x.75 single thread on the section, which is the smallest you could go and still fit the end of a converter. This leaves enough material to cut 10mm cap to body threads.

Update, I will be posting a poll on this at some point to decide the sizes. For this post maybe we should talk double vs triple start what do people want? Most of the buys in the past look like they were triple, then on this last buy they went double start.

 

[Brooks803]

I'd be interested in a 14mm double and 13mm double .8 pitch

 

[magpens]

As I said above, triples for me please. . I tried the doubles from the last buy and have decided I prefer triples. . Reason? . Commercial kits seem to all be triple start; I like them and want to be compatible with them, whatever that means ! . On/off speed is one concrete factor I prefer about the triple. . I don't think triples are any more expensive.

Would be happy to hear a reason for going to double.

 

[wwneko]

The only benefit I can think on double would be threading brittle material, it's a bit less aggressive. If that's the only selling point, I want triple start myself.

 

[BSea]

As I said above, triples for me please. . I tried the doubles from the last buy and have decided I prefer triples. . Reason? . Commercial kits seem to all be triple start; I like them and want to be compatible with them, whatever that means ! . On/off speed is one concrete factor I prefer about the triple. . I don't think triples are any more expensive.

Would be happy to hear a reason for going to double.

Aren't most kit pens quad start? I just tested a few, and they were quad threads.

And I might be interested in 13 double depending on price. I don't know if .8 pitch has an advantage over .75. I think double would work fine for me. But I'm ok with triple too.

 

[Charlie69]

I'd really like a set of 12mm triples but if there is no interest I'm in for 13mm triples.

 

[magpens]

Aren't most kit pens quad start? I just tested a few, and they were quad threads.

Would depend on which kits we're each in the habit of buying. . The ones that I have (and I can't remember names right now) are mostly triples, but I did see in my testing at least one quad. . I'll start keeping a record. . I believe the Jr. Gent II is triple.

 

[BSea]

Aren't most kit pens quad start? I just tested a few, and they were quad threads.

Would depend on which kits we're each in the habit of buying. . The ones that I have (and I can't remember names right now) are mostly triples, but I did see in my testing at least one quad. . I'll start keeping a record. . I believe the Jr. Gent II is triple.

You're right. I tried a Sedona, Jr Gent I, and a Baron. They were all quad start, and a Jr Retro (same size as a Jr Gent II) was triple start.

 

[dozuki]

I could find a home for a set of the 13mm triples

 

[Mintman]

I would be interested in a set of 13mm doubles or triples.

 

[jyreene]

I'd be interested in a 14mm double and 13mm double .8 pitch

Ditto.

 

[wwneko]

Updated prices for both 12 and 6 qty discounts. The 9 discount is about halfway between the two. We would be best off if we can get to 12 on each size being ordered.

You will notice a tooling charge on the 11mm and 13mm doubles, that is a tooling charge or 65$ split 12 ways. This charge is because Tapco has never made this size and have to create tooling for it.


Right now we have the most interest in 13mm and 14mm. Spread the word and see if we can generate some more interest to move forward with the buy.

 

[wwneko]

I updated the tooling Fee on the 6qty table, as it's divided 6 ways instead of 12.

 

[JimHinze]

I'd be in for an M13 triple set at either price point. Maybe an M12 also if we hit the 12 discount.

Also vote for a 9x.75 if there's enough interest

 

[Spiderman]

I'd be in for the M13 or M12. I would also like to cast a vote for the M9 x .75 as well. Being a newbie, actually a "never tried it because I don't have the tools" guy, would it be a problem to pick up the holders and guides as well?

Mike

 

[BSea]

I'd be in for the M13 or M12. I would also like to cast a vote for the M9 x .75 as well. Being a newbie, actually a "never tried it because I don't have the tools" guy, would it be a problem to pick up the holders and guides as well?

Mike

Hi Mike,

You can buy that size directly from Victor Machinery along with several other useful sizes. This is a good thing since they have a $25 minimum order.

Here's the page for taps: Metric Taps - Taper, Plug, Bottoming, and Spiral Point - millimeter sizes.

EDIT: After reading Mike's post below, I'm wondering if you meant triple start tap & die for 9mm x .75. If so, . . . . . . . . . . NEVERMIND (said in my best Rosanna Rosanna Danna voice.)

 

[mredburn]

Die Holders and tap guides can be found at Victor Machinery as well as Little Machine Shop.
The single thread tap and dies that are Chinese made are so cheap even at retail levels that having USA made sets are cost prohibitive.

 

[Carl Fisher]

I'd be in for M13 double and M11 double set both with bottoming taps

I already have the rest at this point.

 

[wwneko]

current count is;

11mm double - 1
11mm triple - 2

13 mm doubles - 3
13 mm triples - 7
13 mm undecided - 3

14mm doubles - 3

Looks like we could get the 6qty discount 13mm doubles and triples at this point if the undecided's go with doubles (which i think was the preference of a some). I have the feeling once we get this approved and posted in the actual group buy it will take-off getting us down to 12 qty prices on both the 13mm double and triples, and probably at lest 6 of the 11mm triples and 14mm doubles...

Please continue to provide preferences and spread the word to anyone who has shown interest in "component-less"

For those on the fence about what size/brand of nib to use you can start off buying churchill/el grande sections with a cheap 10mmx1.0 tap. The churchill/el grande sections thread right in and have the section nib and feed assembly all in one, jump start into "kitless."

 

[magpens]

Triples are better than doubles, IMHO

I'm questioning why anybody wants doubles, except for those wanting a less aggressive thread as James pointed out in an earlier post in response to my question about this. Less aggressive, as I understand it, could be important depending on the material that you are threading.

I bought the 12mm and 14mm double thread sets in the previous group buy a few months ago.
I am disappointed in them and I'll tell you why.

I like to match blank patterns across the centerband. As part of this process, I do a lot of putting the cap on and off while making adjustments. When taking the cap off, I back off slowly and carefully until I feel/hear a click. By that I know when the next thread is engaged, and the blank pattern will have rotated by the next N degrees. In the case of double threads, N = 180, of course. Things get very confusing when you have only 2 threads (double) and you quickly lose track of where you are.

Not only do things get confusing, but by the feel of the *double* threads it is hard to tell when you reach the next thread. The cap and body tend to wobble with respect to each other right at the transition to the next thread making the transition hard to detect.

With triple threads, there is no problem. The cap and body don't wobble with respect to each other at the transition point; the feel of the transition click is very detectable. . I never lose track of where I am with triples.

I hope someone who has worked with doubles will read this post and comment on their experience. I also hope I have explained myself adequately.

And if I am missing something, please correct me, but I don't think I am.

A third point is that, as far as I know, no commercial pens or kit pens use doubles. I'd like to work with triples because they are common.

 

[wwneko]

I was told that it had to do with only one of the threads making a good match/seal/seem. I don't understand why this is the case, if it is true, and if so to what degree do the other threads not engage.

I see the threads as a 3 legged stool, as long as the 3 threads are close they should balance out, but like I said I don't get it.

Edit: I think the 13mm will be able to get up to 12 qty on both the triples and doubles but only time can tell.

 

[magpens]

Yes, to your description of the threads as a 3-legged stool in the case of triples.
That's just how they feel.

But in the case of doubles, you don't get that and so working with them is more difficult.

 

[Carl Fisher]

This argument has gone around and around so many times in the past.

Just accept that some people prefer double and some people prefer triple. It's really just that straight forward.

For those who keep referencing what "kits" do, we're not making kits. If you wanted to duplicate a kit then just use a kit. The point of "kitless" is that you are free to make them however you see fit.

 

[magpens]

From the people who prefer doubles, I'd still like to hear their reason. There must be a reason. I'd like to learn what it is.
It's not a case of "What's your favorite color".

 

[wwneko]

Looks like we will at least be ordering the 13mm triples. For those interested in the 13mm and 14mm doubles, would any of you still be in at the 6qty price break or only interested if we hit the 12 qty?

 

[magpens]

What's the status of the 11mm triple set ? Is that a "go" too ?

 

[Henrique Sampaio]

I am interested in 13 mm triple set

 

[lorbay]

I am interested in 11mm and 13mm triples with 0.8 or .75 pitch. If the group decides on doubles, I MIGHT be interested, just might.

Also interested in 9mm 0.75 single.

Mal you can get 9mm 0.75 anywhere. KMS, Acklands/Granger.
Lin

 

[magpens]

Thanks, Lin. KMS has usually been unable to supply my "bizarre" wants !!
So I never gave them a thought !!
They couldn't even sell me a 1.5" die handle.

I see that KBC has them. Does Acklands-Grainger sell retail ?

 

[lorbay]

Thanks, Lin. KMS has usually been unable to supply my "bizarre" wants !!
So I never gave them a thought !!
They couldn't even sell me a 1.5" die handle.

I see that KBC has them. Does Acklands-Grainger sell retail ?

Yes I think so, if not just give them a phoney name. They never ask for ID
In fact I got one of mine st Home Hardwear. They sell Irwin tools and they are not bad quality
Lin

 

[jttheclockman]

May also have to decide if you want TiN coating on them too. Also you may want to look at the past recent tap and die group buy. May find some answers in there.

 

[wwneko]

We will give 11mm triples a try... Personally I'm interested so I would like to see it happen. It may only get to 6qty though.

If folks are having issues getting 9x.75 tap and dies I can probably include that in the buy via a separate order from victornet.

Taps and dies will not be TiN coated, tapco will no longer do the coating on dies because of the issues they are having with the outsourced company on the last buy. Apparently it's extremely difficult to get good covering on the dies.

They will still coat the taps. Taps, unlike dies, can be sent back for sharpening. Therefore, if we can't have the dies coated I don't fell like it's worth the trouble with the taps.

I have a company contact that you can send both your taps and dies to be coated on your own. I have not contacted them and don't plan to be using their services, but I would invite anyone who feels TiN coating is an absolute necessity to do so on their own. Physical Vapor Deposition and PVD Coatings Chicago, Illinois

 

[wwneko]

Update. It looks like we have enough participants to start the buy. At a minimum we will order 13mm triples, but the 14mm doubles and 11mm triples both have interest and should get to the 6qty price point. I expect once the buy gets officially going we will get to the 12qty price point, but can't promise anything. We will have a way to indicate in the actual buy if you are in at the 6qty price point pricing or you need to hit the 12qty point to stay in. Look forward to something official coming very soon in the group buy forum.

 

[magpens]

Glad to hear that 13mm triples are a "go". Hoping for 11mm triples also :biggrin:

 

[MShepard]

I would like an 11mm triple set

 

[magpens]

I would like an 11mm triple set

You should post this in the other thread which has "Group Buy" in the title.
That's where the actual count is being done.

I'll try to send you the link, but do a search for "Group buy tap die"

Here it is:

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f21/march-multi-start-tap-die-group-buy-138944/

 

[Monty]

Since the buy is currently taking place here, I'm closing this thread to avoid more confusion.