edstreet
Member
1.5 is what the gent jr class uses.
Tap and Die Purchase Research (Taken Over)
- Thread starter whteglve
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ChrisN
Member
1.5 is rather coarse - I was assuming this would be the same as last time - 0.8
edstreet
Member
Just to be clear.
This is a 0.560" x 10 TPI stub acme tap, it cost $30. The die runs around $90 ish and can be reduced via bulk.
0.560" is 14.224mm
P1.5 = 17 TPI.
P2.5 = 2.54 TPI.
Sedona is P0.8
Gent Jr is P1.4
Emperor Jr is P1
Atrax is P1
These I listed are also around 10mm-ish.
P0.8 is to fine for this size tap. The thread strength will be greatly reduced.
This is a 0.560" x 10 TPI stub acme tap, it cost $30. The die runs around $90 ish and can be reduced via bulk.
0.560" is 14.224mm
P1.5 = 17 TPI.
P2.5 = 2.54 TPI.
Sedona is P0.8
Gent Jr is P1.4
Emperor Jr is P1
Atrax is P1
These I listed are also around 10mm-ish.
P0.8 is to fine for this size tap. The thread strength will be greatly reduced.
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duncsuss
Member
Ditto. I'm only interested in M14 x 0.8 x 2
edstreet
Member
9/16" - 18TPI (14.28mm - P1.411) thread yields.
Major: 0.5611 (14.25 mm)
Minor: 0.4950 (12.57 mm)
Pitch: 0.5251 (13.33 mm)
---
P0.8 = 32 teeth per inch
P1.0 = 25 teeth per inch
P1.5 = 17 teeth per inch.
Wider grooves = more strength, will really show up in the more fragile materials.
Major: 0.5611 (14.25 mm)
Minor: 0.4950 (12.57 mm)
Pitch: 0.5251 (13.33 mm)
---
P0.8 = 32 teeth per inch
P1.0 = 25 teeth per inch
P1.5 = 17 teeth per inch.
Wider grooves = more strength, will really show up in the more fragile materials.
edstreet
Member
why 0.8?
Carl Fisher
Member
Most of the FP customers that I sell custom pens to do NOT want a course thread. It's just a matter of consumer preference. For example a 10 x 1.0 would never fly as a cap to body threading.
The 12 x 0.8 double from the last group buy is perfect I see no ask for anything different in a 14. It's not going to have any less strength than the 14 x 0.75 single that most use now.
The 12 x 0.8 double from the last group buy is perfect I see no ask for anything different in a 14. It's not going to have any less strength than the 14 x 0.75 single that most use now.
edstreet
Member
You saying the gent Jr is to coarse?
duncsuss
Member
Last time I bought multi-start taps and dies in a group buy, I got M12 x .8 x 2 and M10 x .75 x 2.
I like this pitch for aesthetic reasons. My Parker Duofold has threads that are a very close match to 0.75 and it's triple start. My Montegrappa Symphony is very close to 0.75 (single start).
My aim when building kitless pens is to come closer to one of these classics than the kit pens you listed. Your aim may be different, and that's okay.
edstreet
Member
Parker Duofold Jr is M11 x 0.7 triple.
edstreet
Member
None of these listed is near the size of M14 
Carl Fisher
Member
Several problems with course.
Most customers don't like the feel of course threads. The Jr is different because it's acme style or whatever which squares out the peaks. I personally find those threads ugly on a pen.
Course threads cut deep. When dealing with already thin wall thickness, the deeper the thread, the weaker it gets. I've never had a problem with strength of a 0.8 thread or even a 0.75 thread on an M14 being weak or not having enough holding power.
Most customers don't like the feel of course threads. The Jr is different because it's acme style or whatever which squares out the peaks. I personally find those threads ugly on a pen.
Course threads cut deep. When dealing with already thin wall thickness, the deeper the thread, the weaker it gets. I've never had a problem with strength of a 0.8 thread or even a 0.75 thread on an M14 being weak or not having enough holding power.
duncsuss
Member
None of these listed is near the size of M14
So?
I repeat -- it's my aesthetic. No amount of arguing about the strength or the difficulty of making these threads is going to change how I feel about the appearance of cap to barrel threads. If I wanted it easy, I would not be making kitless pens. If I wanted physical strength, I wouldn't be making pens from acrylic or ebonite or celluloid.
You are welcome to prefer coarser, stronger threads -- but I want M14 x 0.8 x 2.
edstreet
Member
The Jr is not acme, its standard V shape.
As for 'cut deep' that is a VERY easy fix, once when I told whteglve in PM.
I also know the 'most customers' bit to be misconception as it is based on education of threading, or lack of education in this case on the pen makers part.
None of these listed is near the size of M14
So?
I repeat -- it's my aesthetic. No amount of arguing about the strength or the difficulty of making these threads is going to change how I feel about the appearance of cap to barrel threads. If I wanted it easy, I would not be making kitless pens. If I wanted physical strength, I wouldn't be making pens from acrylic or ebonite or celluloid.
You are welcome to prefer coarser, stronger threads -- but I want M14 x 0.8 x 2.
Can you show me any commercial pen that is M14 x 0.8 please?
Carl Fisher
Member
I don't know why you continue to insist on comparing custom pens to kit or commercial pens. It's like comparing an artists painting to a puzzle.
Regardless this is outside the scope of this thread and I'm not going to continue to be baited by Ed.
I'm in for an M14x0.8 double and would "consider" a 1.0 double at the very outside. Anything larger than that and I'm personally out. This is my design choice as a maker and I'm perfectly capable of having my own discussions with my customers without being preached that I have a lack of education.
Regardless this is outside the scope of this thread and I'm not going to continue to be baited by Ed.
I'm in for an M14x0.8 double and would "consider" a 1.0 double at the very outside. Anything larger than that and I'm personally out. This is my design choice as a maker and I'm perfectly capable of having my own discussions with my customers without being preached that I have a lack of education.
duncsuss
Member
Why should I? I'm not trying to persuade you to change your viewpoint.
My viewpoint is based on having made several of the kits you listed as having coarser-than-0.8mm threads, and also a couple of my own M14 x 0.75 pens.
I repeat, what I want is based on MY AESTHETIC.
Carl Fisher
Member
Let's do the math given the following assumptions.
85% cut on the threads which is relatively standard.
M14 cap to body thread
M10 x 1 front section to body thread
(Minor Diameter - 10mm) / 2 = wall thickness
10mm is the major diameter of the body internal section thread.
M14 x 0.75
Major dia: 14mm
Minor dia: 13.18mm
Difference: 3.18mm
Wall thickness per side: 1.59mm
M14 x 1.0
Major dia: 14mm
Minor dia: 12.92mm
Difference: 2.92m
Wall thickness per side: 1.46mm
M14 x 1.5
Major dia: 14mm
Minor dia: 12.38mm
Difference: 2.38m
Wall thickness per side: 1.19mm
When dealing with fragile materials, I'll take thicker walls over more aggressive thread contact any day. The odds are someone will break a tenon before they strip the threads.
85% cut on the threads which is relatively standard.
M14 cap to body thread
M10 x 1 front section to body thread
(Minor Diameter - 10mm) / 2 = wall thickness
10mm is the major diameter of the body internal section thread.
M14 x 0.75
Major dia: 14mm
Minor dia: 13.18mm
Difference: 3.18mm
Wall thickness per side: 1.59mm
M14 x 1.0
Major dia: 14mm
Minor dia: 12.92mm
Difference: 2.92m
Wall thickness per side: 1.46mm
M14 x 1.5
Major dia: 14mm
Minor dia: 12.38mm
Difference: 2.38m
Wall thickness per side: 1.19mm
When dealing with fragile materials, I'll take thicker walls over more aggressive thread contact any day. The odds are someone will break a tenon before they strip the threads.
Brooks803
Member
Enough good points to rule out the 14x1.5 has been made.
Let me educate a little on why the 12x1.5 is a bad idea.
Say you cut full depth on this thread that leaves the dia roughly 10.5mm. You have to cut threads INSIDE of this for your front section. The typical sizes most custom pen makers use is either a 10x1, 10x.75, or 9x.75. NONE of those would work. Which means you'd have to drop down to an 8mm thread. Well...now you've shot yourself in the foot bc how in the world are you going to fit the tip of a converter inside this?!?! You need a 7.5mm hole to fit the converter inside. You're going to be left with .5mm wall thickness at BEST for your section threads. And you want to talk about structure!??!?!
Let me educate a little on why the 12x1.5 is a bad idea.
Say you cut full depth on this thread that leaves the dia roughly 10.5mm. You have to cut threads INSIDE of this for your front section. The typical sizes most custom pen makers use is either a 10x1, 10x.75, or 9x.75. NONE of those would work. Which means you'd have to drop down to an 8mm thread. Well...now you've shot yourself in the foot bc how in the world are you going to fit the tip of a converter inside this?!?! You need a 7.5mm hole to fit the converter inside. You're going to be left with .5mm wall thickness at BEST for your section threads. And you want to talk about structure!??!?!
Brooks803
Member
I don't understand why the comparison to 1.5 threads for CUSTOM pen makers is being made with kit/component pens. You have to think about how these threads are going to FEEL against your fingers while writing. The coarser you go the sharper these threads are. With .8 or even 1mm pitch it's much more tolerable for those who will be USING the pen.
Brooks803
Member
You can throw out all the math and TPI you want...we're not cutting an inch of threads for anything we make so that reference is completely pointless in the scope of how we'd be using it.
Excuse me, but is there any reason, in particular, that several of you seem to want to fight? Believe me, nothing good will come of it. Just state your case. If someone disagrees, let them. What will it hurt you?
ChrisN
Member
Another reason is consistency. I already have 10& 12 with 0.8,, so I want my 14 to match.
Carl Fisher
Member
DCBluesman
I don't believe anyone is fighting but I know Jonathon, Duncan and I are at least trying to proactively prevent a problem. Without sharing this information, those who may not be familiar with how tap/die threading is calculated and how it relates to making a custom pen could end up wasting money on the wrong tooling.
12 x 1.5 can't work if you intend to use a converter and both the 12 and 14 varieties at 1.5 leave such thin wall thickness left that they would only be suited to metal couplings.
Ed's points are valid if you are using metal coupling or kits, but it doesn't directly transfer over to custom pens.
I don't believe anyone is fighting but I know Jonathon, Duncan and I are at least trying to proactively prevent a problem. Without sharing this information, those who may not be familiar with how tap/die threading is calculated and how it relates to making a custom pen could end up wasting money on the wrong tooling.
12 x 1.5 can't work if you intend to use a converter and both the 12 and 14 varieties at 1.5 leave such thin wall thickness left that they would only be suited to metal couplings.
Ed's points are valid if you are using metal coupling or kits, but it doesn't directly transfer over to custom pens.
edstreet
Member
There is no fighting that I see going on. What I do see is lack of education from the public in how to properly deal with the major and the minor on pen threading, nothing new here.
However I to have clients who wants coarser threads than 0.8 and also exotic ones as well.
However I to have clients who wants coarser threads than 0.8 and also exotic ones as well.
Crashmph
Member
So I guess we need separate group buys or more options in the group buy due to interests in the coarse vs finer threads.
whteglve
Member
If you are interested in this group purchase, please do me a favor. PM me or post here with the specs you want. Also note whether you want "V" shaped or Stub Acme (Jr Gent 2 style also my choice).
Size X Pitch X Starts, Example: M12x.8x2
Size X Pitch X Starts, Example: M12x.8x2
Cmiles1985
Member
I remain interested in an M14x.8x2 V set.
Crashmph
Member
M14x.8x2 V set
Katya
Member
Wow. I'm very interested, but yikes- what am I getting into?!
I'd like to start doing kitless pens. I make a lot of Jr. Statesman & Churchill pens and I like that size.
If you offer some kind of "beginner set" so I can get started, I'd purchase that in a heartbeat.
I'd like to start doing kitless pens. I make a lot of Jr. Statesman & Churchill pens and I like that size.
If you offer some kind of "beginner set" so I can get started, I'd purchase that in a heartbeat.
Alex D
Member
I am interested in the M14x.8x2 V set.
Thanks,
Alex
Thanks,
Alex
Mintman
Member
I am interested in the M14x.8x2 V set.
Brooks803
Member
M14x.8x2 V
whteglve
Member
So far it looks like we have 8 or so people wanting M14x.8x2 taps and/or dies. I'll be moving this over and going live within the next couple days.
No Problem. But if you could inquire, I'd appreciate it. But since their's no one else interested in it, you can send me a personal message with the cost instead of posting here if you'd like.
I noticed though that Alex-D was asking for a DOUBLE start, but I want the TRIPLE start. It's the same one (14 x .8 x 3) that we ordered before in a 1-1/2" diameter size (back in 2012 I think), which is the same size I'd like again. So maybe the cost wouldn't be too much since they made them before. But I'd like a new one, so if you can inquire and let me know the cost I'd appreciate it.
If not, I'll check with Mike again on where he got it and make a personal inquiry. I think it was Tapco and I've dealt with them myself before for other custom t&p's. I was just posting here because I was told their might be a chance a group buy might made.
Another option would be if there's a slight chance their is an IAP member that has a die their not using that they'd like to sell?
Thanks...John
I noticed though that Alex-D was asking for a DOUBLE start, but I want the TRIPLE start. It's the same one (14 x .8 x 3) that we ordered before in a 1-1/2" diameter size (back in 2012 I think), which is the same size I'd like again. So maybe the cost wouldn't be too much since they made them before. But I'd like a new one, so if you can inquire and let me know the cost I'd appreciate it.
If not, I'll check with Mike again on where he got it and make a personal inquiry. I think it was Tapco and I've dealt with them myself before for other custom t&p's. I was just posting here because I was told their might be a chance a group buy might made.
Another option would be if there's a slight chance their is an IAP member that has a die their not using that they'd like to sell?
Thanks...John
It is tapco that I use. THe only discount on reordering an existing size is that they dont have a first time set up fee for the die thread size. Usually a single tap or die is very costly. You could run a separate GB for the triple lead or you could take orders for both in the same group buy. The best prices come at the 12 piece break. They do have additional price breaks on the taps at 24 pieces but the dies usually dont get any cheaper in greater quantities.
KenV
Member
I am good for a M14x.8x2 V set
Ironwood
Member
My preference would be M14x.8x2 V set.
I would possibly take the 1.5mm flat top set if it was offered, but will only get one set only, not both. I would need to be sold on the merits of this thread style before going that way though. I think it could possibly feel better in the hand, but not sure on the looks.
I would possibly take the 1.5mm flat top set if it was offered, but will only get one set only, not both. I would need to be sold on the merits of this thread style before going that way though. I think it could possibly feel better in the hand, but not sure on the looks.
Last edited:
Cmiles1985
Member
Any updates on this?
avbill
Member
What is the status of the tap & Die order? What size are you ordering? Today am I too late for the group order? thanks
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