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Old 09-11-2016, 10:40 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Our local lumberyard bought a saw stop - and then realized that treated wood and wet wood tripped the brake - so they ran it in the off mode perpetually...

Rather a silly purchase for them, in that light...
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Old 09-11-2016, 12:46 PM   #12 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jttheclockman View Post

Now all the rage is with the sawstop saw and you knew it was just a matter of time when someone else came on board to play also. The owners of sawstop were too arrogant and wanted the whole playing field but it backfired on them.

An alternative to that saw is Bosch ReaXX table saw. With this saw you have the same safety features but their breaking system is somewhat different that the blade disappears but there is no break to stop the blade mechanically. Thus you do not have to replace the blade and it takes just 60 seconds to reset. The cartridges are cheaper in the long run and the nice thing it is a job site saw. This is where many accidents happen.
John a slight correction if I may.

The SawStop inventor went to all the players in the industry to licence his mechanism. All of them refused it, not because he wanted too much for the licence, but because if they used it it would open them up to lawsuits for all their other models of saws, past, present and future, that didn't have a blade brake. Having no interest in it and unable to get lawmakers to require a brake on saws, which got under a lot of peoples skins, he set up his own company to make saws himself.

Nothing really happened until a labourer working for a floor installation company cut off his fingers using a job site saw with no guards and successfully sued the manufacturer of that saw for a lot of money. Then and only then did your government bring in legislation requiring manufacturers to have blade brakes on all table saws. Bosch is the first since then to come up with a blade brake, and it won't be long before others debut their own using their own system or by licensing SawStop's, Bosch's or someone else's.

As for the "The owners of sawstop were too arrogant and wanted the whole playing field but it backfired on them." Isn't that the American way? I thought it was the dream of one and all to make money hand over fist with an idea they came up with even if it only affordable by a few. Pharmaceutical companies behave like it is. Someone came up with a way to save fingers and greedy people didn't want to pay for it until the threat of lawsuits and new laws forced them into it. Otherwise those greedy souls were content to collect their dividends and bonuses while ignoring people loosing digits left hand and right.
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Old 09-11-2016, 02:18 PM   #13 (permalink)
 
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Pete there is a lot more to this story than what you are telling and I do not want to bring it in here. Just as most things you can spin it any way to make it favor your side weather pro or con. People can look this up for themselves. Sawstop is now suing Bosch because what they call infringement. The technology is totally different, yes the idea is the same but that does not carry water. Steve Gass wants it all. He wants all companies to come to him for his technology. As I said I do not want to get into it but there is a whole lot more to this story.

It amazes me to no end why the focus is always been on table saws when every tool with a blade or bit is just as dangerous to operate. Each tool has safeguards built in but it always comes down to the operators error. But today we can sue just for being dumb.

Soon we will have cars driving themselves because we are too dumb to be behind a wheel. Lawyers have to be lining up for those lawsuits coming.

If you remember I did post this about the SS. This scenario has not been truly diagnosed. When dealing with electronics strange things can happen.

Sawstop problems - WOODWEB's Architectural Woodworking Forum

Not to get off topic here.
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Old 09-11-2016, 02:28 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Yes, it IS off-topic, but that's GREAT!!

It's a debate--based on facts, and perception of the facts--and VERY healthy for education. I encourage both of you and any others who have something to add, to state your points of view and evidence!! You are both gentlemen and the discourse will allow others to see "two sides" to the story.
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Old 09-11-2016, 02:46 PM   #15 (permalink)
 
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Yes, it IS off-topic, but that's GREAT!!

It's a debate--based on facts, and perception of the facts--and VERY healthy for education. I encourage both of you and any others who have something to add, to state your points of view and evidence!! You are both gentlemen and the discourse will allow others to see "two sides" to the story.
Ed I am sorry for sort of crashing on your post and I know this is your vendor forum and things like this should not happen. But it is an important subject because of the safety factor involved also and that is why I wish you would have posted in another forum. The fact about tru-stone blanks can be a very valuable insight not only with the use of the Saw Stop saw but now with the Bosch saw. You read threads about people thinking of buying this type saw here so maybe more people would like to know these things.

The statement I highlighted in red that you made sums up the use of Sawstop and the people on both sides of the debate. This debate has been going on woodworking forums now for as long as the technology hit the market.


Being you opened this up it probably can be note worthy for other type blanks as well. We as pen turners are constantly buying blanks from all parts of the world. we may not stop to think what is in that blank or its wetness content when using a SS to cut into blanks. This is actually the first reference I have seen leading to this concern and I hope that others do see it. Have no idea how many members here have a SS and i would have to hope they operate them with care and diligence of the materials being cut. So in closing I thank you for bring to light this situation.
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Old 09-11-2016, 03:07 PM   #16 (permalink)
 
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John I remember seeing on the SawStop sight years ago a prototype bandsaw with a blade brake so the idea that there are other machines the technology is applicable to is a good idea and a possibility on the future. A jointer would be another good one.

We all know that a patent must be vigorously defended or see it copied by everyone so I fully understand why SawStop/Bosch are going at it. As an electrician you understand how touching the blade can be sensed and used to start a brake of some kind. Unless you know of more than one way to do that the lawsuit may be quite valid. It doesn't seem to matter which side one takes there are greedy types everywhere.

Ed I respect John and his opinions and will take him on now and then. :)
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Old 09-11-2016, 04:50 PM   #17 (permalink)
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John and Pete, I HOPE to see an atmosphere in "Exotics' corner of IAP" that ENCOURAGES "delving into" topics!! As penmakers, we all have some tools--anything we LEARN about those tools CAN make us safer in our shops!! Additionally, knowing the history of the industry gives members an idea WHY there are, or are NOT, new entries into the marketplace.

Speaking ONLY for myself, I ENJOY seeing two members have a respectful debate---each stating HIS point of view and allowing ME to evaluate and form a better-informed opinion.

THANKS to both of you!!!

And PLEASE keep reading our little corner of IAP and contributing your input!!

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Old 09-11-2016, 07:52 PM   #18 (permalink)
 
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And that's exactly why my co-worker was considering that Bosch you mentioned!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jttheclockman View Post
Now someone should explain to him how to check if the wood is too wet or green. If you saw in Bypass mode it will not set the brake off and will also give you an indication of a red light on the control module showing that it was a conductive piece of material. Those setups gets awful expensive because you are also buying a new blade with that saw.

Now all the rage is with the sawstop saw and you knew it was just a matter of time when someone else came on board to play also. The owners of sawstop were too arrogant and wanted the whole playing field but it backfired on them.

An alternative to that saw is Bosch ReaXX table saw. With this saw you have the same safety features but their breaking system is somewhat different that the blade disappears but there is no break to stop the blade mechanically. Thus you do not have to replace the blade and it takes just 60 seconds to reset. The cartridges are cheaper in the long run and the nice thing it is a job site saw. This is where many accidents happen.

Just another alternative and I believe there will be other players.
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Old 09-12-2016, 12:15 AM   #19 (permalink)
 
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Thanks Ed for letting us play. Pete, As I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV but the idea to have a safer saw is not SS idea. Grounding or artificial creating a path to ground is technology that is used in many different arenas. Home securities, your dogs invisible fence system uses this technology. They just developed a system that does this. But Bosch has come along and to me improved on it. They did not use the same technology that SS uses. Their system works on the same principle that air bags work on and in their saw the blade is not stopped. It just drops below the table and saw is shut off. The cartridge mechanism is nothing like SS. I believe they have no case and you can not sue for an idea as we have hammered out on this very site many times. So I believe but again I am not a lawyer.

I do believe this system of Bosch is the way to go and this will be the one that gets copied. The savings is tremendous when you break it down. Being in the construction field for over 43 years the use of job site saws grew as more and more came into the market. I have witnessed these saws being misused and left unattended many times. Of course all the guards are broken off and there have been occasions that electricians had to replace chords and caps because of misuse. With the safety technique that each brings is a welcome insurance to contractors I am sure but it can get costly. With Bosch they do not loose blades. There are SS on job sites as well as SS has developed all grades of their saws.

I do not believe you will see saws such as Dewalt go to this because they prize themselves as the affordable home contractor saw and this system adds quite a few $$$ on the price tag. Maybe if the technology becomes more down to earth then who knows.
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Old 09-12-2016, 09:04 AM   #20 (permalink)
 
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Having recently had an incident with my tabl saw, in which I lost at the cost of the end of my left index finger, I have a distinct perspective.
The accident was my fault. It was a cut I had done a millilion times. It happened because I was splitting a to short piece (9"), without an overhead gaurd and splitter. I did have my fence installed, and I was using a push stick to push and my hand to hold it against the fence.. Essentially the cut was finished before the piece was through the blade. The offcut piece was caught by the blade and thrown clear, and my finger slid in, taking it's place.
Could a saw stop have saved my finger, yes. But so too could the blade guard and splitter if I hadn't removed it.
Could I have still lost my finger with the Saw Stop, yes, If as mentioned above, I locked out the brake system.

My problem with Saw Stop is not the technologie, but the methods used to force the product into the market. The infamous lawsuit against Bosch involved the individual removing all the safety gaurds including the fence. If the indiviual involved (or myself) had had a Saw Stop, the accident still would have happened, if the system was locked out.

With this case as prescident, if the company mentioned above that runs their saw locked out, should have an accident. The owner of Saw Stop would be held liable, because he allowed the safety to be blocked.

Even after my accident, I am a firm believer that I am my best safety feature. My guard before, was removed because I was to lazy to put it on and off all the time. Its easier to just leave the guard off. I am back using the saw again, (it took a couple of months), but now the guard is on unless it has to be removed for the type of cut. And thos, I'm still a little leary about doing.

Just my little vent.
Play safe everyone.
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