Define "bad"

[ed4copies]

This past week, I have had a couple people complain that the circuit board blanks they received were "bad" or "defective".

When I started turning plastics, I also "blew up" a lot of blanks. I did NOT blame the blank, I realized I needed to hone MY SKILLS. Here are a couple of hints:
1) if you "blow up" a blank and then another and they are different colors, or different shapes, they are NOT from the same "run". The chances you could locate TWO blanks that were truly defective from two different "runs" would approach infinitesimally small. (In other words, it "ain't gonna happen")

2) if you "blow up" a blank and then go to turn another that is exactly the same, LOOK AT the second one. Is it cracked??? In order for it to be "defective", there should be some sort of visible defect. What is it???

3) if you destroy a blank while attempting to face it with your pen mill, DON'T use that pen mill on another blank---if it tore apart ONE blank, it will tear apart another!!!

To me, these points are obvious. Apparently, others see it differently. We try to be eminently fair, so we are replacing these blanks at no charge. But I hope this thread can educate everyone a little.

WHEN A PLASTIC BLANK "BLOWS UP", IT IS NEARLY ALWAYS THE FAULT OF THE TURNER---NOT THE BLANK. Inspect the blanks before you start. If they LOOK good, it is VERY UNLIKELY they have a hidden defect.

To "learn to turn", you WILL have some failures. That is the cost of becoming adept at this hobby.

Hope this helps,
Ed

 

[maxwell_smart007]

I once found a bubble/void in the middle of a commercially made acrylic blank. It was not visible from the outside - I only found it when I cut it on the bandsaw - but that was only once in the entire time I've been turning acrylics

So it can happen - but it's infrequent at best!

 

[Marc]

If you are buying blanks from a brick and mortar shop, please please examine them closely. I have observed lots of shoppers that will pull blanks off the hooks and drop them. It does not happen every time, but it happens frequently enough to have made me very cautious about examining the blanks. You can see corner chips etc, but some of the hairline cracks, specially on the ends, will not show up. I don't worry as much about the wood blanks having the same sort of repercussion from a drop, but acrylics? Very much so.
Ed's comments about the milling cutters is right on. They do need sharpening after a while, and also, make sure the cutter head fits right up to the shaft - no gaps.

 

[pensbydesign]

and because you never saw someone drop them at a mail order place it must not happen?
shippers?

 

[Mason Kuettel]

I still have one of those circuit board blanks that was "defective" on my pegboard rack just behind my lathe. It serves as a constant reminder not to be so aggresive when turning!

 

[longbeard]

Good thoughts Ed, thanks. I set my pen mill aside a year and half ago, been using my faceplate with a scrap piece of wood on it, face trued up, then i use a piece of sticky back 180 grit sand paper stuck to the center of the wood, drill chuck in tail stock with the correct transfer punch in drill chuck, slide the tubed blank on the punch, low speed on the lathe,perfect sanding jig, perfect squared ends everytime, no more problems.

 

[ed4copies]

I once found a bubble/void in the middle of a commercially made acrylic blank. It was not visible from the outside - I only found it when I cut it on the bandsaw - but that was only once in the entire time I've been turning acrylics

So it can happen - but it's infrequent at best!

Circuit board blanks are clear. Bubbles should be visible from the outset.

However, commercial blanks DO have bubbles these days and that IS a defect. Certainly contact the supplier so he can contact the manufacturer.

Bubbles are round. If you think a blank has a bubble and it has an irregular shape, it is "chip out" caused by the way you are turning. If the material is NOT coming off in ribbons, you need to try a different technique.

Some plastics can be very "chippy". Acrylester is such a plastic. However, Chasper uses it for his demonstrations---when you have turned enough "plastic", you CAN get ribbons from almost anything.

 

[Ed McDonnell]

Maybe instead of the "freebie" that typically accompanies orders you might consider including a practice blank with these "advanced" types of blanks. Just a simple rod (or two) of resin of the same type as the the expensive fancy blank that has been ordered. If they can't successfully turn the practice blank, they have no business attempting the advanced blank. Maybe have a pack of practice blanks for sale so people have plenty of opportunity to practice and to develop the skills to tackle the advanced blanks. For many people it will be a lot easier to learn when they only have $1 at risk rather than a whole lot more.

Also include a link to a video that shows what things look and sound like when a resin blank is being properly turned (ribbons peeling off the blank and virtually no sound). As well as what things look and sound like when a resin blank is being butchered (spray of chips and lots of chippy, cracking, scraping sounds).

Additionally, warnings should be posted clearly when the blank is being ordered that pen mills should not be used on these advanced resin blanks. Plenty of good solutions available for DIY sanding jigs if someone doesn't want to spend the money to buy one.

Just some thoughts.

Ed

 

[ed4copies]

and because you never saw someone drop them at a mail order place it must not happen?
shippers?

Most resins will bounce.

IF it is damaged, there will be a crack of some sort that could well show up during drilling. Of course, getting the blank hot during drilling can also fracture it. But, once it is on the lathe the chances it is "defective" are extremely close to zero.

I never say never----but this comes as close as anything I can think of.

Pre-tubed blanks are a different story!!

 

[PenMan1]

I don't think the PC board blanks are "bad", they just require different tools and a different skill set.

I've made A LOT of circuit pens. The issue is that the little caps and transistors that stick up can cause the PR to crack when you get close to final dimensions.

I have found HSS tools inadequate for these blanks. Carbide isn't much better.

THE BEST way I've found to make these pens is with my "80 grit gouge"..... Some people call it sandpaper.

The PC board pens I've made are SO CLOSE to final dimensions that I find it just as fast and MORE EFFECTIVE to just use sand paper followed by a CA finish to cover the inevitable "air pockets".

Respectfully submitted.

 

[PenMan1]

AND FWIW, I think a pen mill is the most overused tool in the shop.

The circuit pens really prefer to be squared with a sanding mill.

 

[George417]

I have been turning pens since before I joined IAP and I know a bad Blank when it goes to pieces on the lathe. If this is the way you treat your customers you can keep your blanks and pen kits and I will buy from other vendors who don't put their customers down when they have problem. I offered to purchase new blanks from you and you asked me to describe the problem which I did and you offered to replace them, but afte waiting 3 weeks and 2 more calls about the blanks, that you offered, you decided that I was incompetent at turning and tried to make me look foolish.

George McCombs
George417

 

[Teeball]

GEorge please call Ed, in my short time of turning , I have found him too go out of his way to help a newbie. He is a true Gentleman. I am sure this could be settled in minutes.

 

[PenMan1]

George:
I don't think Ed was trying to "call you out" or anything lke that. In fact, in the original post he stated that "several customers" were having issues with the circuit blanks.

Ed and I have never seen eye to eye on everything, and in fact, we disagree on many things. So I'm not trying to "defend" him here.

BUT, I DO feel that he was/is trying to see if MANY others were having issues. As a blank maker, I know, first hand, that ANY blank maker can make many blank the same way and some may have problems while the rest of the batch is perfect.

While Ed and I may see differently in many issues, I've never known him to be anything less than a first rate merchant that stands behind his products and services.

I'm SURE that he is trying to figure out if perhaps he got a bad batch, or if these blanks are just as difficult as they've always been.

 

[PenMan1]

By their very design, the circuit pen blanks will have more air pockets, voids, etc.

Just because of the irregular size and shape of the various components, it is very difficult to get a perfect cast, even WITH commercially made casting equipment.

As I said previously, I've made MANY of these (at least 100) and I can only recall a few that DIDN'T have to have CA finish to fill in air pockets.
Does this make them defective? To me, the answer is no, just a different challenge.

And the reason for the delay could have been from Ed's supplier. I know, first hand, that Berea has a hard time keeping decent quantities of that particular blank in stock.

Respectfully submitted.

 

[ed4copies]

As always, I am grateful for the support of those who know me.

I had no intention of mentioning any names on this thread. Over the years, I have called upon the experience of the prior week to make posts that I think will help the IAP population---I think of it as FREE lessons.

George is NOT the only person who has had problems---and I have tried to get more information by asking for pictures, from ALL who have had difficulties. The one thing I have learned is that there are different blanks from different manufacturers involved. So, yes I am convinced the problem is NOT the product.

When I started turning plastics, I knew of no one else who was making pens from plastic. The instructions that were sent with the material did NOT make it easier. I blew up dozens of blanks. I particularly remember Alternate Jade. On my first try, I made a beautiful pen. After that, I must have ruined two dozen--I only continued to try because I HAD done it once--it HAD to be possible. Eventually, I found the technique that worked. Today, it is no more difficult than any other blank.

When I make posts on IAP, I have always attempted to avoid mentioning any individual turner. I have had PM's in the past from people who knew they motivated my post, but they have never "gone public". I am sorry George felt the need to defend himself---I did not mean to "call him out", just felt the opportunity to help others avoid the same "blown up blanks".

I would make this thread again---because the post from Parklandturner gives a very valid suggestion for how to help everyone. I will pursue that.

Thanks for reading and to George, sorry I offended you----I had no intention of telling anyone the names of ANY of the people who prompted my post---you were NOT the only one and the rest shall, as planned, remain nameless.

Ed

 

[gimpy]

I recently had an issue with a vendor,
I made mention on the issue at hand
just to make others aware.......

I did not mention any names
or vendors,

I find it funny that those who call
out their "own" names must
feel guilty of some thing

Just saying.....

One thing to remember, it to
keep your tools SHARP

I commend Ed for bring this to
every one's attention,
it is only a learning curve

Take it and run

 

[sbwertz]

I ordered three custom made blanks for a special project. I only needed two, but ordered an extra "just in case." The first one literally exploded on the lathe. I was a very unhappy camper until I took a close look at the peices. No tube! I had drilled it, painted the inside of the blank and forgot to glue the tube in it. Don't you think I felt like a fool! Ruined a 30 dollar blank. Fortunately, the other two turned out perfect.

 

[Russianwolf]

Maybe instead of the "freebie" that typically accompanies orders you might consider including a practice blank with these "advanced" types of blanks. Just a simple rod (or two) of resin of the same type as the the expensive fancy blank that has been ordered. If they can't successfully turn the practice blank, they have no business attempting the advanced blank. Maybe have a pack of practice blanks for sale so people have plenty of opportunity to practice and to develop the skills to tackle the advanced blanks. For many people it will be a lot easier to learn when they only have $1 at risk rather than a whole lot more.

Also include a link to a video that shows what things look and sound like when a resin blank is being properly turned (ribbons peeling off the blank and virtually no sound). As well as what things look and sound like when a resin blank is being butchered (spray of chips and lots of chippy, cracking, scraping sounds).

Additionally, warnings should be posted clearly when the blank is being ordered that pen mills should not be used on these advanced resin blanks. Plenty of good solutions available for DIY sanding jigs if someone doesn't want to spend the money to buy one.

Just some thoughts.

Ed

I'd be more than happy to make up some blanks with the West System resin I use so that people can try it in a less expensive way before trying the more expensive tube-in blanks I make with it. It is definitely different from PR or Alumilite.

And Ed, "bad" is the way my Tigers played tonight. Very disappointed guy right now.

 

[Cindylee]

I blew out several CB's when I started turning them. Still do every now and then. Tools have to be ultra sharp and I can't get rushed or aggressive with my cuts like I do some stuff. But I never returned them and said the blanks were bad.

Everything cuts different, until you are comfortable with it I have learned to wait and turn that piece when I am not under a time crunch or beat from turning all day. Nice thing about them is they patch spectacularly with some CA and some patience.

 

[Cindylee]

Oh, and I never, never barrel trim CB's. They will separate for the circuit board and create a little air pocket. I only sand them flush.

 

[RDH79]

Different look

I have never(knock on wood) had any trouble with the curcuit board blanks. I did notice the difference in the board. The older had more raised components on them. The newer are more turner friendly.
Thats the only thing I had a comment on.
Like the old style better.
Thanks Ed.
Rich H

 

[Ambidex]

I've turned a bunch of cbs and the only problem I ever had was when some airhead mixed up bushing sets and turned to far down and got into the wire tips of the cb. Now what kind of imbecile could do such a thing??:redface::redface:

 

[Cindylee]

Lol, don't talk about me that way!!!! Talk about aggravating.

I've turned a bunch of cbs and the only problem I ever had was when some airhead mixed up bushing sets and turned to far down and got into the wire tips of the cb. Now what kind of imbecile could do such a thing??:redface::redface:

 

[seamus7227]

I think the OP needs to be a sticky in one of the forums. That is important information that everyone needs to know about either tube-on casting blanks or any color casted blanks.

 

[ssajn]

I've turned well over 50 of the circuit board blanks from Ed. I've also had a few problems but I found the problems were with the turner not the material. Tool presentation is very important. I've found the best tool to use is a sharp skew. To square up the blank leave leave the pen mill in the drawer and sand to square.

 

[TRussell]

i would just like to throw out an idea, i know a lot of folks use a barrel trimmer in a drill press or hand drill. I made a handle for mine and use it by hand. I keep it sharp and yes it may take a minute or two to trim up a blank but I have never had a problem with ant type of blank.

 

[edicehouse]

I have enough experience to know if a blank blows up, it could have been a defective blank, but if a second blows up, turn the lights off and close up shop for the rest of the day, because it WILL NOT get any better!