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Old 03-22-2015, 09:42 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default A couple of questions concerning Buys

I have received a few PMs from a couple of people asking what liability a person running a GB would have should a package get lost in the mail and the recipient had opted not to purchase insurance. It was suggested that if payment was through PP and the package was shipped not using PP, that PP could refund the money from account of the person running the GB, but if it was shipped using PP and the address was confirmed in PP, that PP would support the sender.

I have also received several PMs concerning requiring the use Friends & Family so one will not have to pay a PP fee for GBs. One member has researched this and was informed by PP that for our purpose, this would be a correct usage of F&F. The only drawback I see to this is that the mailing address of the recipient is not automatically sent to the GB leader. Would you like to see F&F be added as a requirement for payment for Group Buys?

Please post any comments you may have on these items.
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Old 03-22-2015, 10:34 PM   #2 (permalink)
 
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The offer for insurance is always presented. If a package is lost, the liability is not on the gb coordinator.

If the coordinator would scam or something, that would be another issue.

The other major aspect of regular PayPal is that it offers buyer protection. Friends and family does not to my knowledge.

As a buyer, I prefer to not pay the PayPal fee. If I was the coordinator, the label thing is easier with the addresses in...

I believe that it should be up to whoever coordinates which PayPal options(s) they want to use. I also think that although I'd use the friends option given the choice, buyers should prob be able to choose to have protection if they like.
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Old 03-22-2015, 10:41 PM   #3 (permalink)
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A more interesting question, Monty.

If you are ordering from another country and the order gets lost---who is "out".

I know for a fact that the Chinese sources will tell you they are
Velly solly, but the order is paid for in advance and you are SOL.

Are all participants in these group buys prepared to lose their money, in the event the shipment is lost?

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Old 03-22-2015, 10:44 PM   #4 (permalink)
 
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My opinions...

A GB coordinator should always offer insurance. If a GB participant does not receive a package shipped by USPS - their maximum recovery is the $50 auto insurance that USPS includes with a flat rate shipment (if shipped using FRB).

If a GB participant declines/refuses insurance and then tries to file a paypal claim against the GB coordinator to get his money back - that is a dick move and that participant should be banned from ALL future group purchases - and possibly removed from IAP. Something like that is simply uncalled for and goes against the spirit of IAP.


on F&F transfers - I agree that for what we do, it really qualifies for F&F - though a regular transfer does give the GB participants an extra level of "comfort" (that they'll get their stuff, and that Paypal won't lock down their accounts). It is tremendously convenient to pay for shipping labels within paypal. That convenience is lost with the F&F feature. 3-4% (or so) can add up to quite a bit.


in 2013 I coordinated easily $20,000 in group buys and had zero issues with packages disappearing or with standard or F&F transfers. Let's hope it stays that way.
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Old 03-22-2015, 11:23 PM   #5 (permalink)
 
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Insurance - it should be offered (and even encouraged), but not required. Everyone should be knowledgeable enough to decide the level of risk they want to assume.

PayPal - I'm not sure that F & F does not supply the address, nor does the Goods & Service supply it - it seems to be more how the individual sending the money has their account set up. I had fee bearing payments without addresses and (I think) F & F with addresses in the February CSUSA GB.

Also on PayPal, I think if we offer a choice, it might lead to issues of people choosing the Goods & Services route, but not include the estimated fee in their payment and vice versa. Again, from February, I had notes in the guidelines and in the spreadsheet to pick the shipping option they wanted and to confirm the insurance inclusion and amount. That was often just left at the default in the spreadsheet. Without an application to do the orders, it might be hard to enforce the choices in the spreadsheet (though I plan to put a few more changes for the next GB I run).

Ed
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Old 03-22-2015, 11:37 PM   #6 (permalink)
 
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I participate in group buys (as an individual buyer) fairly often, and have used the F & F payment once or twice. There is a obvious savings advantage, but you do have to fund the money transfer from your account (in my case checking account), to avoid paying an additional fee to PayPal. The fee comes in if you fund by means of a credit card.
The mentioned downside of the coordinator NOT having the shipping addresses automatically provided via Ppal is something of significance, which adds on to all the other tasks associated with running a buy. That could at least be simplified by the 'Buy' procedures, so it does not become a big headache at shipping time. Overall I favor the F & F option, as an option, so that it could be done either way. It would be good to hear from those who have coordinated a buy, since without a willing coordinator, there would be no buy.
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Old 03-23-2015, 06:35 AM   #7 (permalink)
 
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I agree with Mr. Penguin 100% Insurance is cheap. The last group buy, I spent upward of $500. The extra insurance to cover this was 3 or 4 dollars. I figure a pkg with an insurance stamp on it MAY receive more tender handling! ???



Quote:
Originally Posted by The Penguin View Post
My opinions...

A GB coordinator should always offer insurance. If a GB participant does not receive a package shipped by USPS - their maximum recovery is the $50 auto insurance that USPS includes with a flat rate shipment (if shipped using FRB).

If a GB participant declines/refuses insurance and then tries to file a paypal claim against the GB coordinator to get his money back - that is a dick move and that participant should be banned from ALL future group purchases - and possibly removed from IAP. Something like that is simply uncalled for and goes against the spirit of IAP.


on F&F transfers - I agree that for what we do, it really qualifies for F&F - though a regular transfer does give the GB participants an extra level of "comfort" (that they'll get their stuff, and that Paypal won't lock down their accounts). It is tremendously convenient to pay for shipping labels within paypal. That convenience is lost with the F&F feature. 3-4% (or so) can add up to quite a bit.


in 2013 I coordinated easily $20,000 in group buys and had zero issues with packages disappearing or with standard or F&F transfers. Let's hope it stays that way.
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Old 03-23-2015, 12:15 PM   #8 (permalink)
 
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Insurance on Group buy....I don't see how it would be different on group buys than it is for normal purchased. In most cases the seller will be responsible until the package is delivered. That is how eBay does it. Most large shippers do not offer insurance for that reason, insurance is really to protect the sender. Personally I self insure unless the value is quite high then I buy insurance myself.

If I were the group buy coordinator I'd require insurance.

If the coordinator is sending invoices and getting payments for them don't use F & F because it will break your paper trail. If you are letting participants know what they owe by some other means and you have some other method of getting their shipping information - use it. But, I have never seen F & F come through with a shipping address and there is no where to enter one when you bring it up.
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Old 03-23-2015, 12:35 PM   #9 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ed4copies View Post
A more interesting question, Monty.

If you are ordering from another country and the order gets lost---who is "out".

I know for a fact that the Chinese sources will tell you they are
Velly solly, but the order is paid for in advance and you are SOL.

Are all participants in these group buys prepared to lose their money, in the event the shipment is lost?
Ed, Agreed. I am relatively certain that virtually ALL merchandise purchased out of country is FOB in the country of origin. A few seem to accept responsibility while the package is still in their country by making FOB the point of embarkation but most is FOB at the loading dock of their factory.
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Old 03-23-2015, 12:46 PM   #10 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty37 View Post
Insurance on Group buy....I don't see how it would be different on group buys than it is for normal purchased. In most cases the seller will be responsible until the package is delivered. That is how eBay does it. Most large shippers do not offer insurance for that reason, insurance is really to protect the sender. Personally I self insure unless the value is quite high then I buy insurance myself.

If I were the group buy coordinator I'd require insurance.

If the coordinator is sending invoices and getting payments for them don't use F & F because it will break your paper trail. If you are letting participants know what they owe by some other means and you have some other method of getting their shipping information - use it. But, I have never seen F & F come through with a shipping address and there is no where to enter one when you bring it up.
big difference between a retailor/customer sale and a group buy.

the group buy coordinator is not profiting from the sale and is only passing through costs to the participants.
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