Andrew_K99
Member
I see what Mike is saying ... that thread did go over board and made a mockery of his idea.
Carl set up a better thread IMO [here] that got good results I believe.
Would you want a forum for critiquing pens?
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I see what Mike is saying ... that thread did go over board and made a mockery of his idea.
Carl set up a better thread IMO [here] that got good results I believe.
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Texatdurango
Member
The way I see it, Carl just further proved that if one wants his/her pen critiqued, the SOYP is still the perfect forum to do it so doesn't this sorta let the air out of the new forum idea? :wink:
BSea
Member
I thought Mike's thread was a parity on the "critiques" that are often in SOYP. I did post in his thread in what I believed was the spirit of the thread. Many of the post made me smile, and I thought that's what it was all about. If it degenerated later, I didn't see it. That's why I asked if I missed something.
I did see the other thread, and I think that was what people that want real critiques are looking for. I didn't post there because everything that I would have said had already been said. I'm starting to use the like button more & more. And will use it when I see something I like but don't want to repeat over & over what has already been said.
76winger
Member
I think everyone saw that thread as a mockery to begin with and just treated it as such. I know the comment I left on it was in line with it being a joke.
I believe the test posting Carl did was a much better example of what it could be: http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/honest-critique-my-pen-request-96688/
76winger
Member
Only for those who have been firmly against the idea since the beginning of this thread.
I think there's several here who still think it would be a good idea, because it would exist to serve a separate purpose.
The biggest issue I've seen in this discussion centers around moderation if it got out of hand. If it were clearly explained that the purpose is to provide purposeful input and flaming discussions wouldn't be tolerated. And those that can't control themselves, well I'm sure there's facilities in the software to deny those people from continuing to post in that particular forum.
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jd99
Member
:befuddled:
Geeze now folks are going to go to battle over a couple of threads.
One was a joke one wasn't whats the big deal.
OK lets put it this way... My thread was Critiquing the idea of a Critique thread.
See someone got bent out of shape because of the critique's.
Thats exactly what will happen in a that kind of thread no matter how much it is not ment to be....
Remember this It's just a forum
OK in the words of the Shark Tank
I'm Out.......
Geeze now folks are going to go to battle over a couple of threads.
One was a joke one wasn't whats the big deal.
OK lets put it this way... My thread was Critiquing the idea of a Critique thread.
See someone got bent out of shape because of the critique's.
Thats exactly what will happen in a that kind of thread no matter how much it is not ment to be....
Remember this It's just a forum
OK in the words of the Shark Tank
I'm Out.......
Carl Fisher
Member
I was actually quite pleased with the way that thread went and it makes me more comfortable just coming out and asking for critiques. To this point I have not done that and in hind sight I wish I would have more often. I wanted to see how the overall discussion went and although I don't truly stand on one side or the other of needing a separate forum, I'm happy either way.
There was a lot of repeat critique comments before others realized that clicking the like button accomplished essentially the same result. Some of the repeats did offer different suggestions however which is good. I think as long as comments are provided with justification or suggestions to go along with it, they can only help improve someones work.
There was a lot of repeat critique comments before others realized that clicking the like button accomplished essentially the same result. Some of the repeats did offer different suggestions however which is good. I think as long as comments are provided with justification or suggestions to go along with it, they can only help improve someones work.
Justturnin
Member
I agree with this point and see that as why it would fail. The Mods already have too many forums to watch w/out having to babysit on one that is almost guaranteed to get out of hand daily. Another thing I think we would see would be groups/cliques attacking an individual for their opinion not aligning w/ their own. I have seen it happen on other threads and been part of it because i did not agree w/ the 'mob'. This would be risky and could cause folks to leave the forum or not join if they just stopped by via a google search and saw that type of negativity on the forum.
I feel that 85% of the IAP could make it work but the other 15% are wound up a little to tight and we all know the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
I think if someone wants feedback they can ask for it in Penturning, SOYP or even start a Poll.
Personally I think most of this thread has been a pretty rational discussion of your proposal or things naturally related to the topic. You have received a certain amount of support for your request and some opposed, but no one has (in my opinion) gotten out of line with comments.Evolved in seven years? Mike Where have you been? My guess would be that less than 5% of today's members even belonged 7 years ago. I think when I joined 3 years ago about 25% of today's members didn't belong.
I have the honest and decided opinion that it would not be productive to have a forum such as you suggest. I think if you want that kind of information about your pens you can get it from members whose opinions you value, without controversy.
Btw, no apology necessary....
My apologies to Mike and the rest of the forum for pushing this idea. I rarely posted in the SOYP because the GJNP thing did nothing to help improve my craft. I always had asked for C&C (comments & critiques), and it didn't matter to me if you had never turned a pen. If you saw something that didn't look right I wanted to see from your eyes as well as my own. Rarely would I get a critique, it was all the GJNP BS. Over the years we have been trained that that is what the SOYP forum is for. Just think if we had a Show Off Your Car forum and everyone said what a great little car the Yugo is, the darn thing might still be around!
It is quite sad that after eight years of being on the web that IAP members seem to squabble over the saddest things. I was only asking for a section where people could be honest about what they saw and think since for the most part that seems impossible in SOYP. How many times have we seen a pen in SOYP and inside you want to ask why in the world would anyone not only post it, but admit to it? But instead we just type our four little letters of encouragement GJNP or do not comment at all. What was accomplished with that? Better yet what dis-services was done?
Well it seems this was tried back in 2005 and it failed miserably. Have we not evolved in seven years to be able to do something as kind as telling someone that a pen is way under turned or that the finish is lacking? Based on this thread it is painfully obvious that we have not. So please dis-regard this idea and again my apologies to the forum for stirring this up.
That is right Smitty, in seven years this forum has not evolved to a point that people cannot ask for an honest critique without someone making a snarky comment. Just look at this thread and where it has gone. Look at the post of the critique my bic pen making a mockery of the idea. There is a difference in evolved and changed. The membership faces have changed and that does not equate to evolved. Like I said earlier I am sorry I ever bothered to bring the idea up and I should have remembered my conversation with Jeff a year ago. Jeff you were correct in your assessment and I was wrong. I was looking for a way to improve how we communicate on here and hopefully get to the point of helping one another to improve our craft. You can now all return to your hot key responses of GJNP.
As to the forum "evolving" I wouldn't pretend to really understand what you mean by evolving. My experience with forums has been that what I think you might mean by evolving occurs only when the site (forum) reaches a point of equilibrium with few new members entering and few old members leaving and everybody gets to know everybody else. Usually such places are quite small. My best guess would be, this forum has not reached that point. One might think of that as either good or bad depending on their attitude.
I'm not familiar (although I might have seen it - if I did it has, along with so many other things, taken leave of my mind
) with the Bic thread you mentioned and wouldn't know where to look for it.
Andrew_K99
Member
I'm not familiar (although I might have seen it - if I did it has, along with so many other things, taken leave of my mind
It is this thread here Smitty http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/ill-start-critique-my-pen-96686/
Jgrden
Member
Don: I can appreciate what you said. We lived in Conroe for three years. Left just this last year. Beautiful State, lot's of Texas pride, men are gentlemen, hand shakes mean something, lots of work, really neat history. I just wish it were not a sub tropic climate.
Not only that, but I think your comment had allot of truth in it.
John
Sent from my average daily used laptop.
So why the comment
Why the comment on the "Bic Critique" Mike? (Actually it looks more like a papermate to me, but what the heck). Someone with a sense of humor having a little fun with it and joined by a bunch of others with a sense of humor.
Why the comment on the "Bic Critique" Mike? (Actually it looks more like a papermate to me, but what the heck). Someone with a sense of humor having a little fun with it and joined by a bunch of others with a sense of humor.
Andrew_K99
Member
My take on it ...
That 'Bic' thread took Mike's idea and made a joke out of it. It suggests anyone trying to get feedback on a pen is just wasting their time.
LOL
Of course, that's what it did - some people make a very good living out of doing the same thing over far more serious matters than whether or not to institute a new forum at this web site. Jay Leno and David Letterman come to mind immediately.
Note that one of the first replys on that thread was from my good friend Seamus .... and he was also a very early supporter of Mikes idea. It was all in fun guys.
If one of you guys wants to make a pen using one of my component sets and start the same kind of a thread - please do...I'd probably see a 50% increase in sales.
I seldom use the Acronym LOL but in this case I did (Laugh out loud).
Of course, that's what it did - some people make a very good living out of doing the same thing over far more serious matters than whether or not to institute a new forum at this web site. Jay Leno and David Letterman come to mind immediately.
Note that one of the first replys on that thread was from my good friend Seamus .... and he was also a very early supporter of Mikes idea. It was all in fun guys.
If one of you guys wants to make a pen using one of my component sets and start the same kind of a thread - please do...I'd probably see a 50% increase in sales.
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wolftat
Product Reviews Manager
It all sounds like a great idea until someones feelings get hurt. Remember, you can't see or hear the way something is said when it is written. I know of a few members that took something the wrong way and have since left the forum, maybe we don't need a place to publicly degrade someones work, we already have a show your pen area and that should be enough. Just my opinion and I am entitled to it.
Texatdurango
Member
Dave, I just looked back and you have quoted me and had comments on just about every post I made in this thread but one, did you miss it or just didn't have an answer? Instead of asking you to go back and read post #84 again, it was a simple question, one which I thought would be easy to answer. Here is what I said and asked ( I underlined the part that you probably missed).....
I guess I just don't get it! Can one person give me one example showing where posting a pen in a new critique forum would result in anything different than posting the same pen in the SOYP and asking for critiques?
Anyone care to give it a shot without watering down a response with 5 paragraphs of buzz words and catchy phrases? One difference is all I'm looking for, because I can't think of anything.
I think some of you guys are starting to get worked up and upset over this issue when really it's just people discussing the pros and cons of adding another forum to the IAP. Some think it's a good idea, some don't. Some go on and on trying to convince others that they are CORRECT, I could care less either way, I'm just trying to figure out why we need it and I asked a question a few days ago. A question that so far no one has answered. Could it be that hard to answer?
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Justturnin
Member
Maybe we should just start a blind poll. Then once all is voted on Jeff can make an executive decision and decide if he wants to put it in place, after all it is his house and we are is guests. This discussion has gotten pretty far off track. In my opinion it is what will happen in the Comments and Critique section too.
IPD_Mr
Member
I will be honest and admit that I laughed too, but at only one post. And if he was anywhere near me I would buy him a beer. Thanks Chris you had the most fitting response.:beer::beer::beer:
Justturnin
Member
Me? I'm honored. A beer would be great......:neutral:
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76winger
Member
I think it's just because you've had so many good arguments for me to address that this one slipped through the cracks. :wink: I've been trying to keep up with this thread and using a lot of time I really should be devoting elsewhere. But the subject has reached me and directed me to take the side I have. Thanks for re-posting it for my directed attention.
Texatdurango said:
George,
I'm sorry I missed this one.
I've actually posted several pen in SOYP in the past year or so and pretty much invited comments and critique on all of them. Almost always I've gotten lots of positive comments (nice pen, great job, etc.) but I don't think I've ever gotten any of what I'd critiques (suggestions of something seen by another and ways I might be able to correct it, and I know my work's not THAT good). On the contrary I've also posted some in Pen Photography and asked for comments and advice and gotten what I asked for. Why do you suppose that is? Maybe because the general attitude that's prevalent in a different forum has merit after all...
If I were to post those same pens in a separate forum, designed for pointing out places I could improve, I would then expect those kinds of responses instead of the "great job" responses. This is the reason I think the a separate forum would be beneficial - the EXPECTATION of more critical observations that a separate forum would bring. If you're sensitive you critical comments, don't post your work in this forum! Go to SOYP and get the warm fuzzy responses you're looking for!
In a nutshell: I simply think there's a place for both.
Texatdurango said:
I think some ARE trying to get worked up over this debate. It's actually the first one I've done more than just posted an opinion and left it at that. I've just felt it worth the time to stand for the pro side of this debate and ride it through.
Well I hope I explained the reason I think it would be good George, and I hope you don't think I've been picking on you. Maybe picking you out because your arguments seem more solid than some, but not picking on you.
There's been a fair number that just simply state that it's been done before and no need to do it again. I think that's on it's own is no reason NOT to try it again. Maybe it will flop like last time, and if it does get out of hand it could just as easily be pulled again. But I'd like to think we could all enter in a critiquing forum with a proper frame of mind for providing helpful information to our fellow pen makers and not enter into bashing each others work. We are grown-ups after all, aren't we? But maybe I just have a more positive attitude towards the people I've been getting to know in here than others do. I do tend to have an optimistic outlook on things, there's too many pessimists in the world and I don't care to increase their numbers.
Any of the arguments against it in this thread could be worked out. I can't go back through all of them at this time but such things as scaring off new users? Really? Maybe let them participate in the forums for a few months before letting them have access then... But I don't really think it would come that personally.
Why not use SOYP, I think we've covered that more than a few times by now.
I also understand the arguments associate with text getting taken out of context and interpreted incorrectly. I've been dealing with that for 25 years as an IT professional. But hey, there's a lot business that rely on email, which has gone through the same arguments over the year. And these days there's Facebook, and Twitter and all sorts of mediums with the same problems. But that prevent any of them from not advancing just because of this argument? I don't think so.
Texatdurango
Member
Just as I figured, arguing for arguments sake! I think I'll pull the plug on this thread, it's sounding like a broken record.
I think it's just because you've had so many good arguments for me to address that this one slipped through the cracks. :wink: I've been trying to keep up with this thread and using a lot of time I really should be devoting elsewhere. But the subject has reached me and directed me to take the side I have. Thanks for re-posting it for my directed attention.
Texatdurango said:
George,
I'm sorry I missed this one.
I've actually posted several pen in SOYP in the past year or so and pretty much invited comments and critique on all of them. Almost always I've gotten lots of positive comments (nice pen, great job, etc.) but I don't think I've ever gotten any of what I'd critiques (suggestions of something seen by another and ways I might be able to correct it, and I know my work's not THAT good). On the contrary I've also posted some in Pen Photography and asked for comments and advice and gotten what I asked for. Why do you suppose that is? Maybe because the general attitude that's prevalent in a different forum has merit after all...
If I were to post those same pens in a separate forum, designed for pointing out places I could improve, I would then expect those kinds of responses instead of the "great job" responses. This is the reason I think the a separate forum would be beneficial - the EXPECTATION of more critical observations that a separate forum would bring. If you're sensitive you critical comments, don't post your work in this forum! Go to SOYP and get the warm fuzzy responses you're looking for!
In a nutshell: I simply think there's a place for both.
Texatdurango said:
I think some ARE trying to get worked up over this debate. It's actually the first one I've done more than just posted an opinion and left it at that. I've just felt it worth the time to stand for the pro side of this debate and ride it through.
Well I hope I explained the reason I think it would be good George, and I hope you don't think I've been picking on you. Maybe picking you out because your arguments seem more solid than some, but not picking on you.
There's been a fair number that just simply state that it's been done before and no need to do it again. I think that's on it's own is no reason NOT to try it again. Maybe it will flop like last time, and if it does get out of hand it could just as easily be pulled again. But I'd like to think we could all enter in a critiquing forum with a proper frame of mind for providing helpful information to our fellow pen makers and not enter into bashing each others work. We are grown-ups after all, aren't we? But maybe I just have a more positive attitude towards the people I've been getting to know in here than others do. I do tend to have an optimistic outlook on things, there's too many pessimists in the world and I don't care to increase their numbers.
Any of the arguments against it in this thread could be worked out. I can't go back through all of them at this time but such things as scaring off new users? Really? Maybe let them participate in the forums for a few months before letting them have access then... But I don't really think it would come that personally.
Why not use SOYP, I think we've covered that more than a few times by now.
I also understand the arguments associate with text getting taken out of context and interpreted incorrectly. I've been dealing with that for 25 years as an IT professional. But hey, there's a lot business that rely on email, which has gone through the same arguments over the year. And these days there's Facebook, and Twitter and all sorts of mediums with the same problems. But that prevent any of them from not advancing just because of this argument? I don't think so.
I listed 4 forums aside from SOYP where I believe you can get exactly what you want from the new forum. I assume that is an honest evaluation of your work, materials or design.
My opposition has nothing at all to do with how people will act on it. If they were all to show the greatest of patience and respect I would still not favor it for the simple reason that in my opinion we do not need it.
That is exactly what I would tell Jeff if he were to ask my opinion (which he has not). I need no other reason to oppose it but if Jeff decides to do it I wouldn't be upset by it or feel like I'd lost anything. I hope those who favor it have the same attitude if Jeff does not decide to do it.
76winger
Member
Well there's certainly no attitude problem from my view whether a new forum gets implemented or not. I've simply been stating reasons for one as I see it. And I think it's been a good discussion covering pros and cons both ways for the most part.
But just stating we don't need it just because we don't need another forum doesn't carry much weight in my viewpoint either. Ideally could garner just as much from the site if there was only one forum for everything! Because when I come here I don't usually go to specific forums anyway. I just go to the home page and review the most recent threads and the read and reply to those that catch my interest.
So why not throw it all into one forum? I wouldn't see any difference personally! But many people do come here and go to specific forums of interest to them and don't bother looking into those that seem to have no value to them. A critiquing forum would be the same way. Some would use it to look for ideas to improve on what they've done and others would be looking in it to help those folks out. And many would simply be lurking to learn something before they go down the same path.
It's like a file cabinet full of information: You can pile it all into one drawer and have the same collection of information. But it's sure a lot nicer when you break everything down and separate it into different folders, because it makes it easier to go back and find something later.
But just stating we don't need it just because we don't need another forum doesn't carry much weight in my viewpoint either. Ideally could garner just as much from the site if there was only one forum for everything! Because when I come here I don't usually go to specific forums anyway. I just go to the home page and review the most recent threads and the read and reply to those that catch my interest.
So why not throw it all into one forum? I wouldn't see any difference personally! But many people do come here and go to specific forums of interest to them and don't bother looking into those that seem to have no value to them. A critiquing forum would be the same way. Some would use it to look for ideas to improve on what they've done and others would be looking in it to help those folks out. And many would simply be lurking to learn something before they go down the same path.
It's like a file cabinet full of information: You can pile it all into one drawer and have the same collection of information. But it's sure a lot nicer when you break everything down and separate it into different folders, because it makes it easier to go back and find something later.
76winger
Member
I too think we've discussed this about as far as we can take it. The powers that be can review what we've discussed. Take a poll if they want. And we'll all go on with life whether a new forum is created or not. So I'll part from offering any more views for the PRO side at this point. I've made about all I can, and now I have pens to make!
Exactly, that is why I think the 5 folders we already have to dispense that kind of information is enough.
76winger
Member
None of which are specific for the purpose we've been discussing.
They all are....you can ask for a critical review on any of them and people frequently do.
76winger
Member
So What?
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