Why Not Slimlines?

[Kenny Durrant]

I started a new thread because I didn't want to sidetrack John T. "What If" thread. There were a couple of remarks about "I wouldn't start with Slimlines". I DO understand that it's a cheap kit that when finished it's becomes some what a cheap pen. With that out of the way I want to add that since it's a low price kit you can practice and mess up and give them away and not be out much money. I'm sure most of us have figured out that although you can get materials reasonably priced at times it can still add up. Friends have told me it's the same amount of work as most other pens and you'll be lucky to get half the price when you try to sell it. That is true but my thinking is if I can get $30-$60 for one pen I can buy several more kits to keep busy. I like the fact that it's a small sleek pen that can be easily carried so people can use and show them off. Last but not least I think it is the most versatile kit there is. You can alter the kit so many ways it's unreal. Just look at the Slimline Contests. I don't think it's the one and only kit I think it just gets a bad rap from time to time.

 

[mecompco]

I think they are great to learn fit and finish. I do make some for sale, but I'm not sure why. They really don't make much sense. It takes twice the work, if not more, to make a well-fitted Slim than it does to make, say, a Sierra that will command twice the price or more. Not to mention that one can get two Sierra type pens out of a blank, but just one Slim.

So, twice the work, twice the blank material, challenging to get "perfect" fit, and sells for less than half the price. Just my take on the situation.

Regards,
Michael

PS It takes slightly less work to make a Jr. Gent fountain pen than it does to make a Slim. One sells for perhaps $25.00 and one will command over $100.00 while the cost of materials is about $12.00 more for the fountain pen components.

 

[Edgar]

Well said, Kenny.

I don't regret having started with slimlines at all. Sure, they are generally more work than single tube kits, but they are so versatile & are great skill builders. If you can make nice looking slimlines with good grain-matching & component fit, you should be able to do most any kit well.

I don't actively sell pens, so the potential sales price and profit margin of a kit is not an issue for me.

 

[JimB]

I don't think there is anything wrong starting with slims or continuing to make them. I'm glad I started with them. For writing I prefer a Comfort pen over the slim as it is a bit thicker than the slim and I have found that to be true for many people.

As far as pricing goes, I think we are our worst enemy. We look at the slimline and think 'it's just a slimline' so we put a low price on it. IMO, if you put a higher price on it, the people who like that style will pay that price. On the other hand, if you choose to keep your prices lower on the slimline it will be a good pen for those who can not afford one of your more expensive pens.

 

[jttheclockman]

Kenny I think you may have taken the comment out of context. I agreed with the OP because I do think the slimline is a tougher pen to learn the ropes of turning a pen on compared to a one piece such as a sierra or one of the other longer tubed pens. It is a bit more finicky and you have to remember that new people come here all the time asking questions of how to make pens. Why not learn on a more simple pen??

There is nothing wrong with slimlines and as mentioned can be modified in many ways but AGAIN you have to have that knowledge. Everyone is different but if a newbie asks me what kit to start with I will never tell him a slimline. Maybe that makes me a bad teacher but it is an opinion.

I think a better question is ask the manufacturers why is the slimline kits so cheap as compared to others. If they can make them that cheap why can't they make others cheaper in price??? You have basically all the same components but different size. Is the amount of material used to make a Sierra that much more than a slimline. To me that does not make sense. I think that is where the cheap concept starts . Now I do not make slimlines so I do not know if you can get better plating than some of the really cheap gold platings. Is that where the price difference lies??? That is my thought on this.

I think we charge a certain price for our pens based on the kit value so that is why you see a lower price on slimline pens compared to others and rightfully so unless you are customizing a slimline.

 

[Bob in SF]

Kenny - I learned by making slim stylus pens of all sizes, shapes, and colors - and 80-90% of current pens are slim stylus. This bunch went to a local garden club requesting bold colors to complement their blossoms and blooms, with stylus ends to keep up with their grandchildrens' texting:

If there were other stylus kits, I'd make them.

Warm regards - and have fun, Bob

 

[dogcatcher]

I prefer making the Slimlines and the Sierras. Except for the kitless pens they are about the only 2 kits pens I make. I also sell them for the same price. The extra time it takes to make a Slimline warrants the same sales price.

 

[KenV]

Bob there are several pens that use parker style refills from cigar style to sierra style to tetris to turbin. Beartooth Woods and Exotic Blanks and a search on "stylus" will fill your screen and then some.

 

[Bob in SF]

Thanks, Ken - will do.

 

[edicehouse]

I would say 75% of my repeat customers started with a slim pen of some sort or another, or have bought them regularly. I enjoy going out to the shop and making pens, my goal is to not lose money and if I can take the wife and kids out with profits, GREAT.

I look at slims as a "Gate-way Pen" meaning slims often lead to more sales.

 

[jttheclockman]

I would say 75% of my repeat customers started with a slim pen of some sort or another, or have bought them regularly. I enjoy going out to the shop and making pens, my goal is to not lose money and if I can take the wife and kids out with profits, GREAT.

I look at slims as a "Gate-way Pen" meaning slims often lead to more sales.

Interesting thoughts. Can I ask why you feel they are the gateway?? If you never did a slimline and started your career with doing Sierras would your thoughts be the same.

Again we bring into play the cost of the slimline kit.

 

[Kenny Durrant]

My friends that don't like them start with the plating. The gold doesn't last long so I use the others way more often. I'll also agree they're not that easy with 2 barrels and a smaller diameter to work with. It seems I have more trouble with blowouts and chipping with the smaller diameters. I guess more people like them than you think.

 

[TellicoTurning]

I didn't start with slimlines as most people did, I started with what ever kit my son brought with the lathe at Christmas the year he bought my lathe for me as a Christmas gift... I think it was an 8mm kit that required the tenon cut for the center band. I went to the slims later when I started buying kits myself, but don't really like to use them myself either since I'm beginning to develop some arthritis in my hands and prefer a slightly larger diameter pen. My step son on the other hand loves the slims and over the years I've made a dozen or so for him that he keeps in his truck.

 

[Hubert H]

Interesting question and comments. I make many different kinds of pens - 10% of my pen sales are over $185.00 Having said that, I make quite a few Comfort Pens. I have found the Comfort Pens with a real nice blank and finish are preferred to other larger pens by many ladies. I only use Titanium Nitride and Rhodium and never sell for less than $38.00 - some go for $45-$48.00 and up. Just received a request from a gentlemen for three more Comfort Pens. He is furnishing the blanks and will pay $38 for each one. He has bought several different styles of pens from me in the past but the one he buys the most has been the Comfort - this will make 11 or 12 in the last year. I have had people look at 30 - 35 different styles of pens and settle on one of the Comfort pens even though it was priced higher than some of the Executive, Gatsby, Sierra or Polaris pens. I do not often comment here but I have been surprised how the Slim has been portrayed by many. It just hasn't been my experience. In fact I sold one for $78.00 a while back.

Kenny, What makes this site so interesting is the variety of opinions and experiences people share. You asked a good question - Slims - go for it!

 

[PSNCO]

I like slimlines. I HATE cross refills.

 

[edicehouse]

I would say 75% of my repeat customers started with a slim pen of some sort or another, or have bought them regularly. I enjoy going out to the shop and making pens, my goal is to not lose money and if I can take the wife and kids out with profits, GREAT.

I look at slims as a "Gate-way Pen" meaning slims often lead to more sales.

Interesting thoughts. Can I ask why you feel they are the gateway?? If you never did a slimline and started your career with doing Sierras would your thoughts be the same.

Again we bring into play the cost of the slimline kit.

Most people who are not all about quality pens are not going to pay 30 or up for a pen. I really believe several have bought a $20 pen just to be able to say they helped support a craftsman. Well then some end up buying more slims and more expensive pens, thus the gateway effect.

 

[jttheclockman]

I would say 75% of my repeat customers started with a slim pen of some sort or another, or have bought them regularly. I enjoy going out to the shop and making pens, my goal is to not lose money and if I can take the wife and kids out with profits, GREAT.

I look at slims as a "Gate-way Pen" meaning slims often lead to more sales.

Interesting thoughts. Can I ask why you feel they are the gateway?? If you never did a slimline and started your career with doing Sierras would your thoughts be the same.

Again we bring into play the cost of the slimline kit.

Most people who are not all about quality pens are not going to pay 30 or up for a pen. I really believe several have bought a $20 pen just to be able to say they helped support a craftsman. Well then some end up buying more slims and more expensive pens, thus the gateway effect.

Not picking on you or your answer but to expand on it. Why charge so much for a Sierra?? Why not charge as much as a Slimline. In the end it takes less time to make than a slimline thus save on work hours or why are you not charging more for your slimlines. I use those 2 kits because in my mind they are similar in value. What you lose in kit price you pick up in labor cost. If you can follow that. I believe it is us turners who are doing the injustice by charging so little for them because they are thinner and they most of the time do not look like a high priced kit. Just more fuel for the fire.

Here is what I believe the slimline was the very first kit pen made and was around a lot longer than any other kit and that is why it started as the beginners kit because this was passed down from generation to generation.

 

[dogcatcher]

I believe the reason most people recommend the Slimline to beginners is simply the cost factor. You can screw up 9 in a row and still not have to spend a fortune on kits.

The reason I start a person on the Slimline is that I always have a plenty of kits on hand. I can hand them a few kits, some maple blanks and they are good to start without being out more than about $10. It also teaches the student tool control, I don't let them make the stubby ones, they have to turn the blanks down so they look like a Cross pen.

 

[Chasper]

Slims, or some variant 7mm, is not the easiest to make, Sierra is probably the easiest. But that doesn't mean it isn't a good beginner pen as some have said. I think is it a great pen kit to start with, if you can learn to turn a slim you will be able to turn about anything. If you can't learn to make a slim, maybe you should try another craft.

We make streamlines, not slims, they are just larger diameter at the center band. We sell hundreds of them every year. I would be happier and richer if I could sell hundreds of high end fountain pens and rollerballs instead of the streamlines, but I like selling them better than selling nothing at all. Actually we do sell hundreds of fountain pens and rollerballs every year, but we also sell slims and other lower priced pens. We have made them a part of our merchandise mix and we think it is working out well.

 

[its_virgil]

I think the slimline is noted as the starter kit because at one time it was the ONLY kit and those of us who have turned long enough will remember. From the start to now the slimline has EARNED the reputation as the kit with which ones starts: right or wrong, good or bad. I suppose when we old-timers are no longer around you younger ones can suggest whatever you want to be the starter kit.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

 

[Cwalker935]

I started with slimlines and continue to be partial to them. They are not the easiest but I did not know any better. I like the way they look and think they are great pens for those with smaller hands. I think they make very nice pens when using upgraded finishes and refills. Adding customized centerbands are easy. In short, they are affordable and can offer a great value.

 

[Dan Masshardt]

Not slimlines because they don't generally fit into my margins. If I could get $45 for them I might make them.

 

[magpens]

I am one who said that if I had it to do again, I would not start with slimlines.

Cost is not one of my considerations, although I know it is for some. . Mostly, it's about satisfaction with the results.

As one person above said, slimlines are more difficult than most other pens ... not the place to start, IMHO. . Slimlines, for me, proved more difficult to get satisfying and inspiring results. Until I got into the Sierra and Jr. Gent styles, I was not satisfied with my pen making efforts and was almost ready to give up.

To make a slimline look and feel attractive you need a more-than-neophyte skill set - a skill set which is best developed and honed on a larger, less finicky, more tolerant and satisfying kit.

A slimline is best suited to someone who is ready to cope with the vagaries of hardware peculiarities, somewhat sloppy fits, smaller diameters, thinner sidewalls, etc.

A slimline encourages creativity after you have mastered the basics and inspired yourself that you really want to make pens.

The basic slimline in the hands of a neophyte is often the route to discouragement.

But once you know what you are doing, a slimline can become a vehicle to innovation.

If you are selling pens, the return on overall investment is better on kits larger than slimlines because your time investment is much the same (actually, often more favorable), and you are targeting a more classy and elite clientele who want a pen for more than its primary functionality.

 

[jttheclockman]

I think the slimline is noted as the starter kit because at one time it was the ONLY kit and those of us who have turned long enough will remember. From the start to now the slimline has EARNED the reputation as the kit with which ones starts: right or wrong, good or bad. I suppose when we old-timers are no longer around you younger ones can suggest whatever you want to be the starter kit.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

Like the way you think Don. I agree 100%

 

[edstreet]

So riddle me this .... If (and they were like yesterday) the only kits available and we have a wide diversity now the. Why does the community still insist noobs start with slims? It's illogical and Darwin in motion. Evolve or die pretty much.

 

[jttheclockman]

Read Don's post. Until more people step outside that comfort circle it will continue.

When a newbie starts turning pens, what is the first thing you notice?? Big bulbous pregnant pens. If they had a kit with larger components they would learn easier to shape a pen. It is drummed in our heads that is the kit to start with. Price wise it maybe a few pennies cheaper per kit but again time wise to make it is more expensive to make labor wise.

 

[leehljp]

I remember exactly why I started with the slimline and the reason then is still valid today.

1. I was new to this (but I wasn't new to woodworking, and had several thousand dollars invested in tools as a hobby on two sides of the big pond.)
2. I didn't want to start with an expensive pen and mess it up.

3. Repeat one and two.

4. I learned quickly that a straight slimline was taxing on the finess and also learned that the somewhat taxing learning curve was one of the most beneficial things I could have endured.

5. Because of the cheapness of the tubes, I bought a dozen slimline tubes, drilled out some pine blanks and went to town, so to speak, learning how to apply CA and make a fit to size straight blank. I wasn't interested in making a pen, I was interested in producing a straight (top to bottom) slimline cut - made to size of the fittings, and with a fine coating of CA. I probably would not have bought other size tubes and at that time there were not too many inexpensive pens on the market to experiment with as a learner.

BTW, making a straight blank (for most people) is harder than making curved ones, and it builds discipline in using the tools.

Slimlines are not the easiest, but if one wants to learn some turning disciplines, the Slimlines are the ones to do it on. The problem is, too many people want to produce a bunch of pen without learning the steps first.

THAT said, the slimline is boring to me - in its current form. I like slimlines and wish that there was a 5mm tubed slimline. It needs a different cap, a quality clip, a center band and nib end that doesn't look plated or painted.

 

[Sappheiros]

I think the slimline is a fine pen to work with. I like a hefty pen with some weight to it. I remember using a Levenger Plumpster when they used to have them (though the acrylic ring right by the cap threads always seemed to crack...). When I started looking into making pens, many of the tutorials out there seemed to be how to make a slimline pen. The first video I saw was of a slimline. If you want to emulate the demonstrator, you should use the same tools. Now that I've learned and learned and erred and learned some more, I know better, but it was a good start.

Like John said, though, the newbie pens are all bulbous and pregnant. I didn't have the confidence to trim my pens down too much and I kind of liked the look of a bigger pen. The solution later, obviously, is get a bigger pen kit and gain the confidence to turn B2B. After you pick up some skills, you can make the kitless pen of your dreams, but the nice thing about kits is their variety and ease of access.

Keep learning, keep erring, keep moving forward.

 

[1080Wayne]

Not slimlines because they don't generally fit into my margins. If I could get $45 for them I might make them.

Think you have a better chance to get $45 if you use that as your minimum price and go up to $100 . People can be funny .

 

[OLDMAN5050]

Made over a thousand to give to the troops.. There are so many things you can do with a slim line to change the appearance. I think it is a great pen....

 

[edicehouse]

I know exactly why everyone is FORCED to start with a slimline. It is because when the BASH comes around they can enter the SLIMLINE UNLIMITED CONTEST.

 

[JimB]

Not slimlines because they don't generally fit into my margins. If I could get $45 for them I might make them.

Have you tried pricing them at $45 or more? I'll bet if you do you will sell them.

 

[Chasper]

I've tried $45 and they do sell, but they sell almost twice as well at $39

 

[mikeschn]

I don't like slimlines because the middle band is too small.

If you were to replace the middle band with something larger, the slimlines would be okay. They would probably get more money too.

I have not found a source of larger centerbands for the slimline, other than buying other kits. :crying:

Mike...

 

[linkbelt66]

Saw Capt. Eddie Castelin on Youtube showing Novices, (like me), how to turn pens.
He said get the cheapest pen kits you can find, for practice, and forget the others.
So, I got slimlines from PSI for $1.79 ea. and a 100 pen blank assortment from Woodcraft, (on sale), for $39.99. I good way to start out, I think.

 

[jttheclockman]

Saw Capt. Eddie Castelin on Youtube showing Novices, (like me), how to turn pens.
He said get the cheapest pen kits you can find, for practice, and forget the others.
So, I got slimlines from PSI for $1.79 ea. and a 100 pen blank assortment from Woodcraft, (on sale), for $39.99. I good way to start out, I think.

Not really. buy one Sierra kit. It is one tube. It is a bigger tube. Has more room for error. The blank does not have to be turned so thin. If you do make a mistake just turn another tube or turn off the old blank and start again. This is the point I am trying to make. People keep insisting on bringing up cost and learning on a slimline as cheaper. Yes the poor quality gold kits are peanuts but go selling those and see how many come back to you. Maybe you can get away with them because you now sell them for $5 or give them away.

I have found through the years many times people buy cheap to try a hobby out and then walk away frustrated because they can not master the hobby. Many times the fault lies with the equipment. A perfect example of this that I am all too familiar with is scrolling. People buy these cheap $100 scrollsaws and get frustrated because they vibrate or do not cut straight or are hard changing the blades and so on. So they sell off the saw and move onto another hobby. If they would buy a better quality saw they will see it is a relaxing hobby.

My point is cheaper is not always better. Please do not get me wrong. There is absolutely nothing wrong with starting with slimlines or even making them when you are a 20 year pro. But as you read there are other options but for some reason we are bombarded with this notion that slimlines are the beginners kit of choice and I think that way of thinking is short sided.

 

[bmachin]

John,

Ten minutes ago would have said, "Amen", and just eased on down the road but I had just responded to another post regarding the thickness of the acrylic once a pen is turned.

Long story short; the difference between the tube diameter and the bushing diameter is the same on both the Sierra and the Slimline. Frankly I was surprised.

Sierra: .474-.410=.064
Slimline: .331-.268=.063

This leaves a wall thickness of .032". I looked at a few other kits and found that most of them left wall thicknesses of around .040".

Still, I agree that a sierra is an easier pen to turn and agree with all of your other points as well.

Bill

 

[1080Wayne]

I know exactly why everyone is FORCED to start with a slimline. It is because when the BASH comes around they can enter the SLIMLINE UNLIMITED CONTEST.

Maybe not forced , but certainly browbeat or very enthusiastically encouraged to !

 

[linkbelt66]

Saw Capt. Eddie Castelin on Youtube showing Novices, (like me), how to turn pens.
He said get the cheapest pen kits you can find, for practice, and forget the others.
So, I got slimlines from PSI for $1.79 ea. and a 100 pen blank assortment from Woodcraft, (on sale), for $39.99. I good way to start out, I think.

Not really. buy one Sierra kit. It is one tube. It is a bigger tube. Has more room for error. The blank does not have to be turned so thin. If you do make a mistake just turn another tube or turn off the old blank and start again. This is the point I am trying to make. People keep insisting on bringing up cost and learning on a slimline as cheaper. Yes the poor quality gold kits are peanuts but go selling those and see how many come back to you. Maybe you can get away with them because you now sell them for $5 or give them away.



I have found through the years many times people buy cheap to try a hobby out and then walk away frustrated because they can not master the hobby. Many times the fault lies with the equipment. A perfect example of this that I am all too familiar with is scrolling. People buy these cheap $100 scrollsaws and get frustrated because they vibrate or do not cut straight or are hard changing the blades and so on. So they sell off the saw and move onto another hobby. If they would buy a better quality saw they will see it is a relaxing hobby.

My point is cheaper is not always better. Please do not get me wrong. There is absolutely nothing wrong with starting with slimlines or even making them when you are a 20 year pro. But as you read there are other options but for some reason we are bombarded with this notion that slimlines are the beginners kit of choice and I think that way of thinking is short sided.

You offer very sound advice, unfortunately I did not even know about this web site at that time. If the "pros" would refrain from steering newbie's to slimlines, that could be an improvement. This site is now my "go to" place for information. Thanks.

 

[jttheclockman]

John,

Ten minutes ago would have said, "Amen", and just eased on down the road but I had just responded to another post regarding the thickness of the acrylic once a pen is turned.

Long story short; the difference between the tube diameter and the bushing diameter is the same on both the Sierra and the Slimline. Frankly I was surprised.

Sierra: .474-.410=.064
Slimline: .331-.268=.063

This leaves a wall thickness of .032". I looked at a few other kits and found that most of them left wall thicknesses of around .040".

Still, I agree that a sierra is an easier pen to turn and agree with all of your other points as well.

Bill

Use a Sierra vista. Same price then. When making a Sierra most people do bulge it slightly and it follows the shape of the kit. Not so with a slimline.