Why no Dayacom group buy

Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad

Smitty37

Passed Away Mar 29, 2018
In Memoriam
Joined
Nov 23, 2009
Messages
12,823
Location
Milford, Delaware 19963
In another thread it was asked "Why I don't just run a group buy on the high end Dayacom component sets" That is a valid question and deserves an answer. The short answer is simple - As I read the rules for group buys, I can not do that without some changes in the rules.

FIRST) Rule 2 for group buys.

2 – [FONT=&quot]Prior to starting[/FONT][FONT=&quot] a Buy, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]contact the company[/FONT][FONT=&quot] you will be buying from and ascertain that they have enough stock of the item/s you will be purchasing to fill the anticipated orders of the Buy. Confirm the discount you will receive and any other charges that will be added by the supplier (insurance, shipping etc.)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The part in red is the first place I see a problem. Dayacom does not stock the items - they are produced after the order is received so there is no way I can comply with that rule.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]SECOND) Rule 3 - C reads: C - Spell out all costs associated with the buy such as shipping, insurance and PayPal fees [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Be sure to include a percentage to cover any out of pocket expenses you will have such as boxes, envelopes, mailing labels, printer ink etc. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I am a business and such costs are my overhead - I am not willing to publish all of my costs of doing business.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If I try to treat this as a personal venture I open up a can of accounting worms keeping the transactions separated from business transactions and keeping the funds associated with the group buy separate from normal business activity funds.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]THIRD) Omitted from the group buy guidelines is how are any returns handled, where is the responsibility for the cost of items that might have missing or damaged parts - who is responsible for handling insurance claims if items are lost or damaged in shipment and how much funding may be reserved to cover such items, how long such funding can be held, who holds the funds and how any unused portions are to be disposed of.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In my business, the business is responsible for all of those things and they are handled by the business as part of my overhead - a cost of doing business.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]FINAL THOUGHT) If someone thinks I don't know what I'm talking about and wants to run a group buy for the items I have been getting for members they are free to do so with my blessings and I will offer them all the help I can and happily pass on to them all I have learned from what I've done so far. One other item - Dayacom will NOT make any changes or adjustments it the way they do business to accomodate a group buy - even what had promised to be a very large group buy was rejected by them before it got very far.[/FONT]
 
Last edited:
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad

ed4copies

Local Chapter Manager
Joined
Mar 25, 2005
Messages
24,523
Location
Racine, WI, USA.
There is a "risk-reward" equation in any transaction.

The concept of the group buy is to purchase existing goods from an existing supplier at his volume discounted price. The person leading the group buy runs nearly no risk. He is paid by the purchasers (in advance) and pays the vendor for supplies that are IN STOCK and shipped immediately. For this, the lead person receives nothing--except the thanks of his participants and the volume discount on HIS purchase.

When we tried to do that with Dayacom a couple problems came to light.
1) They demanded payment BEFORE they would make the products. So, your money is "at risk" for at least six weeks
2) They offered no guarantee of us receiving the goods--no insured shipping and no recourse if the order did NOT arrive.

Previous "poor purchasing experiences" that have occurred on the IAP site have resulted in certain "burned" buyers seeking the help of IAP to make them whole. With this in mind, in spite of the TOS specifically saying no vendor is endorsed, nor is any purchase guaranteed by IAP, it still seems logical for Jeff to attempt to reduce the odds of a recurrence of such purchasing problems.

The business model Smitty has used allows him to precollect and to prepay Dayacom. He gains some limited compensation for this, as he should. It is still unclear who assumes this risk, should a shipment get "lost in transit". It certainly seems fair for the IAP to want to be certain all parties understand the risk and that that risk is NOT assumed by IAP.

Therein lies the difficulty, I believe.
 

Smitty37

Passed Away Mar 29, 2018
In Memoriam
Joined
Nov 23, 2009
Messages
12,823
Location
Milford, Delaware 19963
Not unclear at all

There is a "risk-reward" equation in any transaction.

The concept of the group buy is to purchase existing goods from an existing supplier at his volume discounted price. The person leading the group buy runs nearly no risk. He is paid by the purchasers (in advance) and pays the vendor for supplies that are IN STOCK and shipped immediately. For this, the lead person receives nothing--except the thanks of his participants and the volume discount on HIS purchase.

When we tried to do that with Dayacom a couple problems came to light.
1) They demanded payment BEFORE they would make the products. So, your money is "at risk" for at least six weeks
2) They offered no guarantee of us receiving the goods--no insured shipping and no recourse if the order did NOT arrive.

Previous "poor purchasing experiences" that have occurred on the IAP site have resulted in certain "burned" buyers seeking the help of IAP to make them whole. With this in mind, in spite of the TOS specifically saying no vendor is endorsed, nor is any purchase guaranteed by IAP, it still seems logical for Jeff to attempt to reduce the odds of a recurrence of such purchasing problems.

The business model Smitty has used allows him to precollect and to prepay Dayacom. He gains some limited compensation for this, as he should. It is still unclear who assumes this risk, should a shipment get "lost in transit". It certainly seems fair for the IAP to want to be certain all parties understand the risk and that that risk is NOT assumed by IAP.

Therein lies the difficulty, I believe.
That isn't unclear at all Ed - I do.

I make the sale and just like any other sale I make I promise delivery of the goods. If they are not delivered for any reason, fire, flood, tornado, volcanic eruption or anything else it is my responsibility to make the buyer whole. It is unclear who would bear the responsibility in a group buy.

One example that actually happened.

I offered Ligero Component sets from Dayacom in 24kt gold and Chrome and Rollerball and Fountain Pen styles. I took all of the orders collected the money and ordered 200 chrome RB and 150 24 kt Gold RB. Due to a mixup at Dayacom I received 350 24Kt gold RB and 0 Chrome. I reordered the chrome at a cost of $.90 per kit more than in the first order. There was a wait but everyone got what they ordered except me. I had 200 24Kt gold RB kits that I did not want and I spent $1100 that I didn't want to spend to replace the Chrome for which I had collected about $180 less.

Had that been a group buy I would have said "Sorry folks, Dayacom sent the wrong stuff so you're getting a substitution for what you bought." Some folks might have been a bit ticked off at me but no one could have done anything about it...
 
Last edited:

ed4copies

Local Chapter Manager
Joined
Mar 25, 2005
Messages
24,523
Location
Racine, WI, USA.
Thank you Smitty. I honestly did NOT know that.

If the goods are not delivered, YOU are willing to refund everyone who prepaid?
 

maxwell_smart007

Lead Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
6,705
Location
middle of nowhere in the great, white North
The risk in a group buy is shared by all participants - which is why the organizer does not take any profit from it. Collective buying power for lower prices.

If a vendor is declaring that he's backing up all purchases from his website with his own guarantee, then that's a different animal altogether. All the more reason to run such a buy on one's own website, and thus show that it's different from an IAP group buy.

The IAP assumes no risk for group buys, nor does it for group buys where the organizer is monetarily compensated, such as in Smitty's example.

My understanding is that Smitty is certainly free to run pre-purchase sales through his website, and advertise the fact in the classifieds. There's no rule against that. It'll just cost $5 more per buy than it does today.
 

Smitty37

Passed Away Mar 29, 2018
In Memoriam
Joined
Nov 23, 2009
Messages
12,823
Location
Milford, Delaware 19963
Yes there is.

The risk in a group buy is shared by all participants - which is why the organizer does not take any profit from it. Collective buying power for lower prices.

If a vendor is declaring that he's backing up all purchases from his website with his own guarantee, then that's a different animal altogether. All the more reason to run such a buy on one's own website, and thus show that it's different from an IAP group buy.

The IAP assumes no risk for group buys, nor does it for group buys where the organizer is monetarily compensated, such as in Smitty's example.

My understanding is that Smitty is certainly free to run pre-purchase sales through his website, and advertise the fact in the classifieds. There's no rule against that. It'll just cost $5 more per buy than it does today.

There is one - Smitty's rule - I won't do that.

Please remember Drew - that as I said on the other thread. I don't have a big dog in this fight. Frankly I do not care what the outcome is. I have not asked, and will not ask that the rule be changed simply to accomodate me. If the rule stays as is, my customers for the high end Dayacom kits will need to find another source - high end kits are not part of my core business and are not goiing to become part of my core business.
 
Last edited:

PenMan1

Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2009
Messages
6,380
Location
Eatonton, Georgia
Thank you for posting this, Smitty. I TRIED to run a group buy from Dayacom. This became an overwhelming task and MUCH MORE TIME AND RISK than I was willing to absorb.

I could never get any firm commitments as to when (or actually , IF) products would ship. This group buy had crossed well over the $10,000 threshold and the wait (using IAP members money), at least two months.

Come to find out, the high end kits would be manufactured once a firm order with payment was in hand.

I'll NEVER attemp another buy like this one! There were simply TOO MANY things to go wrong, and the only positive thing I could hope to get from it was a few high end kits that I can buy from reputable resellers.
 

maxwell_smart007

Lead Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
6,705
Location
middle of nowhere in the great, white North
That's the big issue with high-end group buys, or purchase of high-end kits in volume. The risk is tremendous, and there's no insurance to protect one against the possibility of an international sale going south...

I think there's definitely a market for high-end kit sales, but the risk vs. reward is a very tough one to stomach..
 

Daniel

Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2004
Messages
5,921
Location
Reno, NV, USA.
On Rule 2 above. That the manufacturer will produce the items as they are ordered is actually verifying that they can meet the demand of the group buy. The wording of the rule could be altered to more accurately reflect actual practice. My pen mill group buys where approved even though it was clearly stated that mills would be made after the order was placed.

As for rule 3, If you are not willing to make public overhead costs then you are in fact not willing to do group buys. Group buys are not business there is no justifiable reason to not have full disclosure. It is actually more of a protectoin for you since one requirement for a group buy to be a group buy is that no profit for the person doing it. The exact wording of the rules may not be complete but I know the spirit of the rules is correct. I actually helped develop the rules by my efforts and discovering what does and does not work. Full disclosure to the point of annoyance was one point I stress in making group buys successful for everyone.

As for the liability issue. When group buys first started it was clear and I believe widely accepted that each member was accepting the risk that they may not get full satisfaction. I also went a long way to make sure people where happy. I failed that on only one occasion. Over time it has become the general opinon of at least some members that the person organizing the group buy should be responsible. This was not acceptable to me and is one of the many reasons I no longer do group buys. And I do mean many. Changes in rules here, conflicts with my personal finances, Changes in Pay Pal policies and even the sheer work involved in conducting buys all contributed to me giving them up. So it is in no way that one issue can be fixed to correct the situation. Even the basic growth of this group and the changes in it's basic dynamics have caused me to reconsider the wisdom of even conducting group buys for anyone. as an example. I found that far to many members that simply do not know better would speak to me as if I was a vendor and that I should be concerned with the satisfaction of my "Customers". I was often correcting people that I do not have Customers. I have friends I am doing a favor for. Eventually this miss conception of what was actually taking place became a never ending tide of belief that I finally just surrendered and gave up.

I now think it would be the best policy of the IAP to support and encourage the development of products to be offered (At Profit) by it's members. Group buys should be discouraged or even banned. I have lots of reasons for that but they are almost all tied to the decay of the neighborly atmosphere of this group. Simply put this group is no longer a safe enough place to being doing such risky activities. Trust is critical and such trust cannot genuinely be developed in this group any more. It creates a situation that people will blindly step into situations in which they can and will be taken advantage of. Much like the generous nature of our members can and has been taken advantage of. I worked very hard for amny years to develop group buys as a method of purchasing that can be trusted. Sadly I no longer believe that can be achieved reliably. Not for the buyer or the organizer.
 

Monty

Group Buy Coordinator
Joined
Mar 4, 2005
Messages
8,343
Location
Pearland, Texas, USA.
In another thread it was asked "Why I don't just run a group buy on the high end Dayacom component sets" That is a valid question and deserves an answer. The short answer is simple - As I read the rules for group buys, I can not do that without some changes in the rules.

FIRST) Rule 2 for group buys.

2 – [FONT=&quot]Prior to starting[/FONT][FONT=&quot] a Buy, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]contact the company[/FONT][FONT=&quot] you will be buying from and ascertain that they have enough stock of the item/s you will be purchasing to fill the anticipated orders of the Buy. Confirm the discount you will receive and any other charges that will be added by the supplier (insurance, shipping etc.)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The part in red is the first place I see a problem. Dayacom does not stock the items - they are produced after the order is received so there is no way I can comply with that rule.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]SECOND) Rule 3 - C reads: C - Spell out all costs associated with the buy such as shipping, insurance and PayPal fees [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Be sure to include a percentage to cover any out of pocket expenses you will have such as boxes, envelopes, mailing labels, printer ink etc. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I am a business and such costs are my overhead - I am not willing to publish all of my costs of doing business.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]If I try to treat this as a personal venture I open up a can of accounting worms keeping the transactions separated from business transactions and keeping the funds associated with the group buy separate from normal business activity funds.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]THIRD) Omitted from the group buy guidelines is how are any returns handled, where is the responsibility for the cost of items that might have missing or damaged parts - who is responsible for handling insurance claims if items are lost or damaged in shipment and how much funding may be reserved to cover such items, how long such funding can be held, who holds the funds and how any unused portions are to be disposed of.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In my business, the business is responsible for all of those things and they are handled by the business as part of my overhead - a cost of doing business.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]FINAL THOUGHT) If someone thinks I don't know what I'm talking about and wants to run a group buy for the items I have been getting for members they are free to do so with my blessings and I will offer them all the help I can and happily pass on to them all I have learned from what I've done so far. One other item - Dayacom will NOT make any changes or adjustments it the way they do business to accomodate a group buy - even what had promised to be a very large group buy was rejected by them before it got very far.[/FONT]

There is a "risk-reward" equation in any transaction.

The concept of the group buy is to purchase existing goods from an existing supplier at his volume discounted price. The person leading the group buy runs nearly no risk. He is paid by the purchasers (in advance) and pays the vendor for supplies that are IN STOCK and shipped immediately. For this, the lead person receives nothing--except the thanks of his participants and the volume discount on HIS purchase.

When we tried to do that with Dayacom a couple problems came to light.
1) They demanded payment BEFORE they would make the products. So, your money is "at risk" for at least six weeks
2) They offered no guarantee of us receiving the goods--no insured shipping and no recourse if the order did NOT arrive.

Previous "poor purchasing experiences" that have occurred on the IAP site have resulted in certain "burned" buyers seeking the help of IAP to make them whole. With this in mind, in spite of the TOS specifically saying no vendor is endorsed, nor is any purchase guaranteed by IAP, it still seems logical for Jeff to attempt to reduce the odds of a recurrence of such purchasing problems.

The business model Smitty has used allows him to precollect and to prepay Dayacom. He gains some limited compensation for this, as he should. It is still unclear who assumes this risk, should a shipment get "lost in transit". It certainly seems fair for the IAP to want to be certain all parties understand the risk and that that risk is NOT assumed by IAP.

Therein lies the difficulty, I believe.
That isn't unclear at all Ed - I do.

I make the sale and just like any other sale I make I promise delivery of the goods. If they are not delivered for any reason, fire, flood, tornado, volcanic eruption or anything else it is my responsibility to make the buyer whole. It is unclear who would bear the responsibility in a group buy.

One example that actually happened.

I offered Ligero Component sets from Dayacom in 24kt gold and Chrome and Rollerball and Fountain Pen styles. I took all of the orders collected the money and ordered 200 chrome RB and 150 24 kt Gold RB. Due to a mixup at Dayacom I received 350 24Kt gold RB and 0 Chrome. I reordered the chrome at a cost of $.90 per kit more than in the first order. There was a wait but everyone got what they ordered except me. I had 200 24Kt gold RB kits that I did not want and I spent $1100 that I didn't want to spend to replace the Chrome for which I had collected about $180 less.


Had that been a group buy I would have said "Sorry folks, Dayacom sent the wrong stuff so you're getting a substitution for what you bought." Some folks might have been a bit ticked off at me but no one could have done anything about it...
It is for this exact reason that there is Rule #2 (see above in green). The individual coordinating the GB should have some assurance or recourse from the company that the items that were ordered will be the items delivered. If the company makes an error, the company should make it right, The individual running the GB should not have to take the hit in their pocket book to make it right. This is also a reason for not doing a GB with a company that will not offer insurance when they ship the items to the individual. If the items get "lost" in transit, the individual would be covered for the loss and be able to replace the items at no cost them personally.

As for the second item, rule 3 (above in blue), a GB is done with no profit to the individual, hence not a "business" and as such there would be no overhead as a cost of business. Yes, there is overhead as in shipping supplies, but a minor cost since boxes can be obtained free from the USPS and they will pick up the boxes at your door. Any excess funds from this fee should be either refunded to the buyers or donated to IAP.
 

Smitty37

Passed Away Mar 29, 2018
In Memoriam
Joined
Nov 23, 2009
Messages
12,823
Location
Milford, Delaware 19963
On Rule 2 above. That the manufacturer will produce the items as they are ordered is actually verifying that they can meet the demand of the group buy. The wording of the rule could be altered to more accurately reflect actual practice. My pen mill group buys where approved even though it was clearly stated that mills would be made after the order was placed.

As for rule 3, If you are not willing to make public overhead costs then you are in fact not willing to do group buys. Group buys are not business there is no justifiable reason to not have full disclosure. It is actually more of a protectoin for you since one requirement for a group buy to be a group buy is that no profit for the person doing it. The exact wording of the rules may not be complete but I know the spirit of the rules is correct. I actually helped develop the rules by my efforts and discovering what does and does not work. Full disclosure to the point of annoyance was one point I stress in making group buys successful for everyone.

As for the liability issue. When group buys first started it was clear and I believe widely accepted that each member was accepting the risk that they may not get full satisfaction. I also went a long way to make sure people where happy. I failed that on only one occasion. Over time it has become the general opinon of at least some members that the person organizing the group buy should be responsible. This was not acceptable to me and is one of the many reasons I no longer do group buys. And I do mean many. Changes in rules here, conflicts with my personal finances, Changes in Pay Pal policies and even the sheer work involved in conducting buys all contributed to me giving them up. So it is in no way that one issue can be fixed to correct the situation. Even the basic growth of this group and the changes in it's basic dynamics have caused me to reconsider the wisdom of even conducting group buys for anyone. as an example. I found that far to many members that simply do not know better would speak to me as if I was a vendor and that I should be concerned with the satisfaction of my "Customers". I was often correcting people that I do not have Customers. I have friends I am doing a favor for. Eventually this miss conception of what was actually taking place became a never ending tide of belief that I finally just surrendered and gave up.

I now think it would be the best policy of the IAP to support and encourage the development of products to be offered (At Profit) by it's members. Group buys should be discouraged or even banned. I have lots of reasons for that but they are almost all tied to the decay of the neighborly atmosphere of this group. Simply put this group is no longer a safe enough place to being doing such risky activities. Trust is critical and such trust cannot genuinely be developed in this group any more. It creates a situation that people will blindly step into situations in which they can and will be taken advantage of. Much like the generous nature of our members can and has been taken advantage of. I worked very hard for amny years to develop group buys as a method of purchasing that can be trusted. Sadly I no longer believe that can be achieved reliably. Not for the buyer or the organizer.

My post was saying exactly that I am not willing to do group buys and giving my reasons. That was one of the reasons. By the way I didn't list all of my reasons. Another is, I could not accept any form of payment other than certified checks or money orders as payment because that is the only way I could keep the funds entirely free from being co-mingled with my business money. Paypal and Credit cards would be out. Both are processed as business activity.
 
Last edited:

PenMan1

Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2009
Messages
6,380
Location
Eatonton, Georgia
That's the big issue with high-end group buys, or purchase of high-end kits in volume. The risk is tremendous, and there's no insurance to protect one against the possibility of an international sale going south...

I think there's definitely a market for high-end kit sales, but the risk vs. reward is a very tough one to stomach..


That is the entire problem with Dayacom! They want the purchaser to assume all of the risk, be responsible for waiting on them for production... In essence, "their way or the highway".

That is why I applaud "Marksman", not a product that would ever be successful in my market....BUT getting away from the Dayacom "Do it my way, or do without mentality"
 

Smitty37

Passed Away Mar 29, 2018
In Memoriam
Joined
Nov 23, 2009
Messages
12,823
Location
Milford, Delaware 19963
In Defense

That's the big issue with high-end group buys, or purchase of high-end kits in volume. The risk is tremendous, and there's no insurance to protect one against the possibility of an international sale going south...

I think there's definitely a market for high-end kit sales, but the risk vs. reward is a very tough one to stomach..


That is the entire problem with Dayacom! They want the purchaser to assume all of the risk, be responsible for waiting on them for production... In essence, "their way or the highway".

That is why I applaud "Marksman", not a product that would ever be successful in my market....BUT getting away from the Dayacom "Do it my way, or do without mentality"

In defense of Dayacom - they have never been a retailer they are a international wholesaler. As such you are not likely to find them having anything much in inventory. The cost to them of handling a $10000 order that included 40 or 50 different types and finishes in less than their production quantities would be such that it would not be profitable.

They are now taking a few tentative steps into retailing along with wholesaling and eventually they might be easier to deal with. But it does make them unsuitable for group buys.
 
Top Bottom