Whats happened to cursive

[altaciii]

Well put, Dawn. I guess its up to the mid and early boomers to try and inform and teach the gen-xers, millinials and now the new silent generation (wow, is there really that many generations past me?)the dying art of hand writing. If we don't use it it will go the way of latin and other forgotten cultures.

 

[TellicoTurning]

I'm 48 years old. the near end of 7th grade all the teachers got together and decided I needed to write my 'stuff' in print or learn to type. They just couldn't read my writing. Sometimes it has to do with dexterity and not 'learning.'

Besides, with being dyslexic, print and the computer has permitted me to write over 1500 sermon manuscripts (that are usually 8-10 pages long) to this point. I think before we get on our high horse(s), we should remember we are all not made and function in the same way.

We are all gifted differently and as much as I wish I could have the hand writing of the Victorian age.... I do not.

Grizz,
I learned to write cursive in the third grade... because it was required... over the years my handwriting has deteriorate to the point of almost total illegibility... mostly because as I learned to type and use the new technology, I became more proficient in that than in the cursive hand writing. When I was in the navy, I often sat voice radio circuits and could copy them on a typewriter faster than by hand.... I've also come to rely on the spell checker to the point that my spelling has begun to deteriorate as well... I graduated from high school with a very high skill in spelling, and still spell well, but my view of the spelling skills of the younger generations is that they can't ... nothing to do with dyslexia or any other handicap other than they were not taught. We weren't allowed to use calculators in my school years...we learned to do math in our heads... today I've so come to rely on a calculator it's difficult for me to add a column of figures... I still can, but it so much faster with a calculator... but I can still look at a column and know how to add the numbers.... so many young today can't.

I don't think anyone here intends to sound as if they are riding the high horse... I think they as do I think that basic cursive is a basic skill that needs to be retained... much like reading. One of the problems with schools today tends to be not teaching the basic skills and not holding onto the students until they do learn them... as a manager in business for nearly 40 years, you would be surprised at the number of applicants I would get that could not read and fill out a basic job application. I think this is a terrible thing to happen to our nation and especially to our young people. What's going to happen when our technology fails and we don't know how to communicate?

 

[sbwertz]

I'm reminded of when I was learning German. Many of the old texts are printed in the old german typeface "frakur" and I had to learn to read it. It was no longer being used in Germany at that time, but so much of the historical literature was printed in fraktur that German students had to learn to read it. It was a beautiful font.

It is a calligraphic font, and all the old manuscripts in German are lettered in it.

(for some reason it is dropping the final paren on the link, so you will have to click on the link in the error page)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraktur_(script)

 

[NewLondon88]

Besides, with being dyslexic, print and the computer has permitted me to write over 1500 sermon manuscripts (that are usually 8-10 pages long) to this point. I think before we get on our high horse(s), we should remember we are all not made and function in the same way.

Grizz, I don't think it's a 'high horse' matter, and I doubt anyone is
ragging on people who can't write legibly. How many of us really can?
But what seems to be upsetting people is that some of these skills are
no longer being taught. It's not about mastering the skills, it's about not
being taught the skills in the first place.

 

[leehljp]

Besides, with being dyslexic, print and the computer has permitted me to write over 1500 sermon manuscripts (that are usually 8-10 pages long) to this point. I think before we get on our high horse(s), we should remember we are all not made and function in the same way.

Grizz, I don't think it's a 'high horse' matter, and I doubt anyone is
ragging on people who can't write legibly. How many of us really can?
But what seems to be upsetting people is that some of these skills are
no longer being taught. It's not about mastering the skills, it's about not
being taught the skills in the first place.

Charlie,
I agree with what you wrote 100%. When education and skills are dropped down to the lowest common denominator to accommodate everyone, the whole system loses. The weakest link becomes the downfall. Goals should be set high, not low.

NOW, having said that, common sense in a teacher and instructor will allow for those that have dyslexia or Aspergers and even Downs syndrome and other situations. My daughter has a double Masters, specializing in "gifted" and "challenged". I hear from her about those with problems on many fronts, but how talented they are in specific situations when challenged properly. I have worked with a few people that some teams did not want because of their quirkiness. IF you know how to get them to focus in the right direction and with the right tools as Grizz wrote, they can exceed beyond what ordinary people accomplish. But the key is that you can't lower the standards for everyone because some can't.

Limitations of a few are not a drawback if they are challenged to develop the strengths that they DO have. And when this is done, I often see "challenged" people exceed those who are not challenged - in specialized areas . . . to the degree that they become more well known and an inspiration to those who are not challenged.

 

[Smitty37]

The three R's

It is attidude...The fact is (in my mind anyway) that children today are not being educated. They leave school, sometimes even college, without being able to read, write, spell or do basic arithmetic. When the teachers told me that children had to keep up with technology and learn the "new" ways I told them this ---- what you teach them about technology will be obsolete by the time you get done teaching it to them. Technology changes and today it changes faster than ever before, you can not keep up with all the changes, nor do you have to. Keyboarding is going by the wayside...in a few years it will be voice activated.

I worked in the computer industry and by the time I retired we would start a project using the latest technology we might be on that for two years and when we finished we'd need to learn the technology all over again for the next project because of all the change that took place while we were locked to one.

When I started in computers, you had to know how the computer worked, then later on, you didn't need to know how the computer worked but you needed to know how the software worked. Still later you didn't need to know how the software worked but you needed to understand the operating system. Now you really don't have to understand anything but the icons.

Our children are not being taught technology - they are being taught current methods of using technology. Do most people use their computer for anything other than a method of communicating and some record keeping? Not really. Will they ever? Probably not.

 

[Texatdurango]

I think so many of you are getting caught up with the "romance" of hand writing that you forget that it is becoming less and less useful or practical every day.

And the numerous examples given above comparing math skills and making change at a cash register to legible handwriting is like comparing apples to oranges! Besides, when is the last time you were doing something on a computer and needed to do some figuring, did you have a handy paper tablet sitting next to your mouse to do your math on, NO… you used the calculator on the desktop of your computer!

Remember back in the day when you would see folks in stores doing inventory…….carrying a clipboard, using a pencil and counting items with their fingers? Now, think back to the last time you saw someone doing inventory…….. They had a scanner walking up and down the aisles scanning bar codes! Times are changing and skill sets change with the times.

I think back to 2004 when I was helping mentor a young college intern at work. She worked with me off and on for several months before heading back to school for the fall semester.

Thinking back, her handwriting was horrible, almost illegible. Instead of spelling "you" she would write "U", and she had a list of substitutes for words such as the word "for" was replaced by the number "4" and so on. BUT…….. it didn't matter one iota since 99.99% of our communications were either verbal or keyed on a keyboard, either attached to a computer or cell phone.

Now before we give up on her as a lost cause and toss her into the heap of illiterate employees stumped at making change for a dollar at McDonalds, when she came to my retirement party in 2006 I learned that she was working on her third masters, was now working full time in the IT department of our large aerospace company where she was just promoted to manager over their new technologies group.

Not bad for a young lady who signed my retirement poster………"To a great guy, luv U, enjoy retirement!"...... ALL in block letters!

 

[Haynie]

For many of us, mainly males, it is not a matter of writing cursive. It is a matter of drawing cursive. Griz is right. Not having to write cursive has allowed me to focus on the word not the letter. Kind of like reading the words in a book as opposed to reading the story.

 

[NewLondon88]

One of the problems with schools today tends to be not teaching the basic skills and not holding onto the students until they do learn them... as a manager in business for nearly 40 years, you would be surprised at the number of applicants I would get that could not read and fill out a basic job application. I think this is a terrible thing to happen to our nation and especially to our young people. What's going to happen when our technology fails and we don't know how to communicate?

When I had my store, I learned pretty quick not to give out applications to
anyone who wanted to take them home. It was a two page app, and most
of that wouldn't be filled in anyway. So there was no need to take it home.
At first, I was surprised at how many of the applications had been filled in
with two obviously different hands.. usually just the name being filled out
by the applicant. Too many of them couldn't read the application.

 

[Smitty37]

I think so many of you are getting caught up with the "romance" of hand writing that you forget that it is becoming less and less useful or practical every day.

And the numerous examples given above comparing math skills and making change at a cash register to legible handwriting is like comparing apples to oranges! Besides, when is the last time you were doing something on a computer and needed to do some figuring, did you have a handy paper tablet sitting next to your mouse to do your math on, NO… you used the calculator on the desktop of your computer!

Remember back in the day when you would see folks in stores doing inventory…….carrying a clipboard, using a pencil and counting items with their fingers? Now, think back to the last time you saw someone doing inventory…….. They had a scanner walking up and down the aisles scanning bar codes! Times are changing and skill sets change with the times.

I think back to 2004 when I was helping mentor a young college intern at work. She worked with me off and on for several months before heading back to school for the fall semester.

Thinking back, her handwriting was horrible, almost illegible. Instead of spelling "you" she would write "U", and she had a list of substitutes for words such as the word "for" was replaced by the number "4" and so on. BUT…….. it didn't matter one iota since 99.99% of our communications were either verbal or keyed on a keyboard, either attached to a computer or cell phone.

Now before we give up on her as a lost cause and toss her into the heap of illiterate employees stumped at making change for a dollar at McDonalds, when she came to my retirement party in 2006 I learned that she was working on her third masters, was now working full time in the IT department of our large aerospace company where she was just promoted to manager over their new technologies group.

Not bad for a young lady who signed my retirement poster………"To a great guy, luv U, enjoy retirement!"...... ALL in block letters!

Yes- I'm faster on paper than with the calculator (and more accurate because there are no typos). Often I can do it in my head.

It is the lack of rigor that hurts. We didn't drop to about 25th in the industrialized world in math and 17th in science because we are doing it right. Of course some people are smart enough to overcome the deficiencies but that does not remove the deficencies.

 

[Smitty37]

For many of us, mainly males, it is not a matter of writing cursive. It is a matter of drawing cursive. Griz is right. Not having to write cursive has allowed me to focus on the word not the letter. Kind of like reading the words in a book as opposed to reading the story.

If you were taught to read words, you were taught wrong. we need to read at least phrases to make sense out of the written word. When you look at a page in a book you see the whole page and if you were taught properly you'd be able to process that page in a few seconds just like you do a picture.

 

[Jgrden]

Testdarano. when why the heck are we making pens?? I have no regard for the three Masters when they don't know the basics. I have a well educated brother who cannot drive from Arizona to California to visit his mom because he cannot read a frigging map, yet he is a Masters Degree in school administration, plus a few other degrees as well. I love him but he is a social, oh never mind.........

 

[jasontg99]

Cue up The Buggles "Video Killed the Radio Star" and here is your answer....computers.

 

[crabcreekind]

OK so to defend the young people,
1. writing in cursive is hard to read and it also takes longer. Also everyone elses style is different. It is hard for me to read my mom's handwriting.
2. Writing in all caps is professional and looks very neat . Very easy to read. Also engineers use it. I took ENG Drawing and we were forced to write in all caps.

 

[Texatdurango]

Testdarano.

when why the heck are we making pens??

Don't know about you but I make them for the enjoyment! If people quit buying them I'll have a nice collection sitting on my bookshelf along with my other turnings.

I have no regard for the three Masters when they don't know the basics.

That's fine but I sure as hell do! Exactly what "basics" are you referring to, the "three R's".

Her spelling and hand writing isn't her fault since, as mentioned above many schools don't teach it anymore. My point was that she is going to be very successful in life regardless of her lack of fine penmanship and spelling.

Has it ever dawned on some of you that the school systems actually might know what they are doing and are focusing on skill sets that will be valuable in this global, high tech century rather than the last? I can remember back in the 60's when wood shop, welding and auto repair classes were offered to the boys to give them a good foundation in life and home economics was geared to teaching the girls everything they need to know to be a good little wife and make a home for her family. How many "stay at home moms" are sitting around baking cookies, darning socks, cleaning house waiting for their husband to come home. I think the school systems figured out those were out dated skill sets as well!

Some of you continue holding onto skill sets that were once considered admirable and valuable but like it or not, have gone by the wayside. And also as mentioned above, being good at math was also once an asset, now you are required to bring a calculator to class so THAT skill set is also not as beneficial as it once was.

I have a well educated brother who cannot drive from Arizona to California to visit his mom because he cannot read a frigging map, yet he is a Masters Degree in school administration, plus a few other degrees as well. I love him but he is a social, oh never mind.........

Actually in your last paragraph you too point out how times are changing...... Ten years ago the term "frigging" or other expletives spelled similarly weren't only not necessary, they were considered to be in bad taste (probably still are in some circles).

 

[Jgrden]

Testdarano.

when why the heck are we making pens??

Don't know about you but I make them for the enjoyment! If people quit buying them I'll have a nice collection sitting on my bookshelf along with my other turnings.

I have no regard for the three Masters when they don't know the basics.

That's fine but I sure as hell do! Exactly what "basics" are you referring to, the "three R's".

Her spelling and hand writing isn't her fault since, as mentioned above many schools don't teach it anymore. My point was that she is going to be very successful in life regardless of her lack of fine penmanship and spelling.

Has it ever dawned on some of you that the school systems actually might know what they are doing and are focusing on skill sets that will be valuable in this global, high tech century rather than the last? I can remember back in the 60's when wood shop, welding and auto repair classes were offered to the boys to give them a good foundation in life and home economics was geared to teaching the girls everything they need to know to be a good little wife and make a home for her family. How many "stay at home moms" are sitting around baking cookies, darning socks, cleaning house waiting for their husband to come home. I think the school systems figured out those were out dated skill sets as well!

Some of you continue holding onto skill sets that were once considered admirable and valuable but like it or not, have gone by the wayside. And also as mentioned above, being good at math was also once an asset, now you are required to bring a calculator to class so THAT skill set is also not as beneficial as it once was.

I have a well educated brother who cannot drive from Arizona to California to visit his mom because he cannot read a frigging map, yet he is a Masters Degree in school administration, plus a few other degrees as well. I love him but he is a social, oh never mind.........

Actually in your last paragraph you too point out how times are changing...... Ten years ago the term "frigging" or other expletives spelled similarly weren't only not necessary, they were considered to be in bad taste (probably still are in some circles).

I cleaned up my venacular just to not offend YOU. When Microchips fail, I and other seniors will be there with the chalk boards saving the world. Or is the chalk board considered a new invention too. ???:smile-big:

 

[Texatdurango]

I cleaned up my venacular just to not offend YOU. When Microchips fail, I and other seniors will be there with the chalk boards saving the world. Or is the chalk board considered a new invention too. ???:smile-big:

Now let's not start making something out of nothing here, did I anywhere in my post say you offended ME? No, but since this thread is all about change and how people view those changes and what is considered right and wrong about all the changes I was simply pointing out another change in people's everyday communication skills. :wink:

 

[Smitty37]

Time......

When my father went to school circa 1900 most students did not go to more than 8 grades and there was no kindergarden. My parents both finished 11th grade in school districts where that was the highest grade.
11 years of schooling a lot more than average.

When I went to school 1943 - 1955 about 60 or 70 percent of students finished high school kindergarden in some places but certainly not all over. I finished 12 grades and the equivalent of about another year of tech training in the Navy. 13 years of schooling a bit more than average (I got my degree many years later)

When my children went to school 1968 - 1994 over 50 percent of students graduated from college. All went to kindergarden. 5 of the 6 completed college and 1 got her masters degree. 17 to 19 years of schooling a bit more than average (three others later got masters degrees)

My grand children are now in school....they all had pre-kindergarden, and kindergarden so when they finish high school they will have had 14 years of schooling. I'm certain that at least the majority of them will get a bachlor's degree of one sort another and probably a masters. 20 years of schooling most likely about average.

In another generation the my great grand kids won't be in the workforce until they're around 30 and they won't be able to spell, add, subtract, multiply or divide without a machine to help them out....I think that's a sad state of affairs.

And contributions --- look around your house and shop and ask yourself what there is now that wasn't invented by around 1950 or 1960 (by my father's generation) Computers? - nope (Illiac 1946), telephones? - nope, cell phones? - nope (same principal as walkie-talkies invented in WW II) electric stoves? - nope, refrigerators? - nope, washers? - nope, airplanes? - nope, jet airplanes? - nope, microwave ovens? - nope (raytheon invented these in 1947), clothes dryers? - nope, automobiles? - nope. transistors? - nope, solid state electronic devices? - nope.
Even pens - people still want to get a Parker 51 from the 40s.

So the least educated of our most recent generations actually developed the basics on which practically our whole world sits. What will the legacy of the rest of us be? That we managed to make some improvements on what our grandfathers came up with?

 

[InvisibleMan]

Like most here, I learned cursive and was required to use it. When I discovered it wasn't being focused on much any longer, I had the attitude that it's another failure of the education system - until I thought about it. In reality, it is faster than printing once you get used to it. Beyond that, it is pretty much a romantic connection to the past. It has largely lost its usefulness in my opinion, and is the least of education's problems, if it really even is a problem. Cursive practice time is much better used learning that "alot" is not a word, apostrophes don't belong in every word that ends in "s" and "algebra" is not a dirty word.

Just my opinion. I understand and appreciate the other side.

 

[Jgrden]

I cleaned up my venacular just to not offend YOU. When Microchips fail, I and other seniors will be there with the chalk boards saving the world. Or is the chalk board considered a new invention too. ???:smile-big:

Now let's not start making something out of nothing here, did I anywhere in my post say you offended ME? No, but since this thread is all about change and how people view those changes and what is considered right and wrong about all the changes I was simply pointing out another change in people's everyday communication skills. :wink:

Sorry, you are right. :wink:

 

[Jgrden]

As I am opposed to leaving the art of writing it needs to be said that a self reflection revealed using a computer to type is far more fast than writing cursor style to communicate. I took typing in school because of a broken arm that prevented me from drivers education (yes I learned how and passed the class with a cast on my arm). That typing class catapulted me past people in the banking industry that could not use a typewriter. I use a HP12C to calculate real estate loan payments and for me to do this by the old math process would take tremendous amounts of time which costs money and can put us back in the third world status. So this progress is necessary and I don't know what to think about abandoning the old school.

 

[Smitty37]

As I am opposed to leaving the art of writing it needs to be said that a self reflection revealed using a computer to type is far more fast than writing cursor style to communicate. I took typing in school because of a broken arm that prevented me from drivers education (yes I learned how and passed the class with a cast on my arm). That typing class catapulted me past people in the banking industry that could not use a typewriter. I use a HP12C to calculate real estate loan payments and for me to do this by the old math process would take tremendous amounts of time which costs money and can put us back in the third world status. So this progress is necessary and I don't know what to think about abandoning the old school.

There are those who think that is exactly where we are headed if we stay on the present course, while I don't necessarily agree with that analysis I have to acknowledge they have a some points. The question is how long can we go on consuming more than we produce before we break the bank? I don't know, but I will take bets that it isn't forever.

 

[Haynie]

For many of us, mainly males, it is not a matter of writing cursive. It is a matter of drawing cursive. Griz is right. Not having to write cursive has allowed me to focus on the word not the letter. Kind of like reading the words in a book as opposed to reading the story.

If you were taught to read words, you were taught wrong. we need to read at least phrases to make sense out of the written word. When you look at a page in a book you see the whole page and if you were taught properly you'd be able to process that page in a few seconds just like you do a picture.

Thanks for agreeing with me

M Haynie MS. Ed in Reading Education

 

[Smitty37]

For many of us, mainly males, it is not a matter of writing cursive. It is a matter of drawing cursive. Griz is right. Not having to write cursive has allowed me to focus on the word not the letter. Kind of like reading the words in a book as opposed to reading the story.

If you were taught to read words, you were taught wrong. we need to read at least phrases to make sense out of the written word. When you look at a page in a book you see the whole page and if you were taught properly you'd be able to process that page in a few seconds just like you do a picture.

Thanks for agreeing with me

M Haynie MS. Ed in Reading Education

The value of cursive, in my mind, is that since one is writing it on paper
and must erase, crossout or start over to correct mistakes, the writer will (if about half smart) think out what is being written better than if using a computer word processor where correction is done for you. After all it is quite possible, and many fonts exist for it, to type cursive....that doesn't help though.

In my opinion our nation needs to restore rigor to education. We've added years to the typical child's education, we've added subject matter, we've reduced class sizes to add attention from teachers, we've added computers to the classroom, and we've added calculators and other things. I think we have done this at the expense of rigor and depth.

 

[Jgrden]

And since we are now headed toward advancement, why did China beat us in the production of the largest memory and fastest memory chip?? My point bring, I let my guard down to allow electronics to take over and prevent us from becoming a third world economy and we got beat !!!!!
Oh heck, I spent all afternoon in a DMV office in San Bernardino, CA. trying to get new drivers licenses and a car registered. I am not in the best of moods. Perhaps I should have started a RANT and not infested a nice diatribe over cursory writing. My apologies.

 

[Holz Mechaniker]

The bottom line of it is, why aren't public schools (I can only speak of public, I am not familar with the standard curriculum of private institutions) providing pupils with a life skill of being able to write Long hand/cursive. Without going into a Political charged rant. A lot of areas have lost the tax base that what gave schools the money to provide for students.

In art stores you can find books and starter kits to learn Calligraphy. Lets break down that word. Calligraphy Calli or Kalli which means Beauty, Beautiful (ancient Greek) and Graphy for Writing. So Calligraphy simply means Beautiful writing.
Along with the books and kits, you will find some fountain pens, mostly dip pens, and even felt tip pens cut to simulate different nibs.

Even though the first ball point pen was invented in the late 1888. It was designed by a leather tanner because a fountain pen didn't mark his leather in way he wanted. The first Ballpoint pen for commercial retail sale wasn't until after WWII. It took 20 years until the Ballpoint pen overtook the Fountain pen.
Now in Europe, the fountain pen is used in schools, public and private. If you find a student with a fountain pen today, in the United States, most likely they are an art student.

So why isn't Cursive being taught. It may be that we are not longer a collective of rural farms where the kids are needed for planting and other farm based needs throughout the months of June - September.
We can give one hope that no matter how children are educated, It is really up to the parents and/or grandparents to at least show how things were done in their day.

 

[Haynie]

For many of us, mainly males, it is not a matter of writing cursive. It is a matter of drawing cursive. Griz is right. Not having to write cursive has allowed me to focus on the word not the letter. Kind of like reading the words in a book as opposed to reading the story.

If you were taught to read words, you were taught wrong. we need to read at least phrases to make sense out of the written word. When you look at a page in a book you see the whole page and if you were taught properly you'd be able to process that page in a few seconds just like you do a picture.

Thanks for agreeing with me

M Haynie MS. Ed in Reading Education

The value of cursive, in my mind, is that since one is writing it on paper
and must erase, crossout or start over to correct mistakes, the writer will (if about half smart) think out what is being written better than if using a computer word processor where correction is done for you. After all it is quite possible, and many fonts exist for it, to type cursive....that doesn't help though.

In my opinion our nation needs to restore rigor to education. We've added years to the typical child's education, we've added subject matter, we've reduced class sizes to add attention from teachers, we've added computers to the classroom, and we've added calculators and other things. I think we have done this at the expense of rigor and depth.

What classrooms are you in? The majority of classrooms do not have but one or two computers and those are dinosaurs. Schools can't afford otherwise. Those that can are proof of the unbalanced funding process. Reduced class sizes? Since when are 30-35 students reduced? will stop this now before it gets into the political realm.

Cursive, in no way promotes rigor, as rigor is a one street without engagement tagging along. I would rather the student focus on the thought process they used to form an opinion, or solution to a problem. This means they are engaged and open to a more in depth rigorous lesson.

 

[Bart Leetch]

Well I learned cursive & still know how after a fashion.

 

[Smitty37]

For many of us, mainly males, it is not a matter of writing cursive. It is a matter of drawing cursive. Griz is right. Not having to write cursive has allowed me to focus on the word not the letter. Kind of like reading the words in a book as opposed to reading the story.

If you were taught to read words, you were taught wrong. we need to read at least phrases to make sense out of the written word. When you look at a page in a book you see the whole page and if you were taught properly you'd be able to process that page in a few seconds just like you do a picture.

Thanks for agreeing with me

M Haynie MS. Ed in Reading Education

The value of cursive, in my mind, is that since one is writing it on paper
and must erase, crossout or start over to correct mistakes, the writer will (if about half smart) think out what is being written better than if using a computer word processor where correction is done for you. After all it is quite possible, and many fonts exist for it, to type cursive....that doesn't help though.

In my opinion our nation needs to restore rigor to education. We've added years to the typical child's education, we've added subject matter, we've reduced class sizes to add attention from teachers, we've added computers to the classroom, and we've added calculators and other things. I think we have done this at the expense of rigor and depth.

What classrooms are you in? The majority of classrooms do not have but one or two computers and those are dinosaurs. Schools can't afford otherwise. Those that can are proof of the unbalanced funding process. Reduced class sizes? Since when are 30-35 students reduced? will stop this now before it gets into the political realm.

Cursive, in no way promotes rigor, as rigor is a one street without engagement tagging along. I would rather the student focus on the thought process they used to form an opinion, or solution to a problem. This means they are engaged and open to a more in depth rigorous lesson.

I didn't say anything even remotely political. Nor did I even suggest who or what was at fault.
.
Since you pointed brought up your credentials - my own degrees are in Electronics Technology and Political Science.

With respect to class size, you are just wrong, it is no where near 30 to 35 students. Nationwide it is about 24 students per class and in no state is it as high as 30 as of the 2007-2008 school year according to SASS. Iin fact 21 states have laws restricting class size and all but 15 states have or/had programs to reducee class size. In addition, while I don't say none exists, I have not found any data showing that reduction in class size has any corresponding impact on student performance. If it did, over the last 30 years we, as a nation, should have shown great improvement in student performance rather than the actual deterioration we have shown.


As I said using cursive, in my opinion, does force the very thinking that you want...that's what rigor does. It forces thinking....pushing buttons or keyboard keys does not.

 

[sbell111]

Didn't we just do this thread?

Schools have lots of info to teach. The amount of information that children need to learn increases all the time. Given that there are only so many days in the school year, there is only so much info to be taught. Therefore, hard decisions must be made as to what not to teach. (You'll note that we no longer teach shorthand, either.)

Since I went to primary school a hundred years ago, I learned cursive. It is a skill that I could still utilize, if I chose to. I do not. It seems that I am always taking notes or scribbling out the draft of a document, but never in cursive. I scribble it out in semi-all caps longhand.

My point is this: Schools teach as much as they can. If you want your children to learn something additional, teach it to them yourself.

 

[sbell111]

As I said using cursive, in my opinion, does force the very thinking that you want...that's what rigor does. It forces thinking....pushing buttons or keyboard keys does not.

While it may be true that learning cursive forces rigor in the formation of the letters or words themselves, I do not believe that the mere act of writing in script v. printing results in the writer better thinking through the material itself.

 

[Smitty37]

Didn't we just do this thread?

Schools have lots of info to teach. The amount of information that children need to learn increases all the time. Given that there are only so many days in the school year, there is only so much info to be taught. Therefore, hard decisions must be made as to what not to teach. (You'll note that we no longer teach shorthand, either.)

Since I went to primary school a hundred years ago, I learned cursive. It is a skill that I could still utilize, if I chose to. I do not. It seems that I am always taking notes or scribbling out the draft of a document, but never in cursive. I scribble it out in semi-all caps longhand.

My point is this: Schools teach as much as they can. If you want your children to learn something additional, teach it to them yourself.

The biggest question regarding education of our time, is there any good reason why we should rank 1st among OECD nations in expenditures per student (about 45% above average), second behind Iceland in percentage of GDP spent on education and about 17th or 18th in student performance? Are we, in fact, getting what we're paying for?

 

[sbell111]

The biggest question regarding education of out time, is there any good reason why we should rank 1st among OECD nations in expenditures per student (about 45% above average), second behind Iceland in percentage of GDP spent on education and about 17th or 18th in student performance? Are we, in fact, getting what we're paying for?

It's a mistake to compare the educational expenses in two countries based on GDP. It's sort of like comparing the driving prowess of two individuals based on their annual income. At best, it's an apples to oranges comparison.

I do get that your point is that we spend lots of money on education, yet we fall in the middle of the pack regarding performance. I'm sure that people much more highly qualified than you or I have very good ideas as to why that is the case. I seriously doubt it's because some schools elect not to teach cursive writing.

 

[Smitty37]

The biggest question regarding education of out time, is there any good reason why we should rank 1st among OECD nations in expenditures per student (about 45% above average), second behind Iceland in percentage of GDP spent on education and about 17th or 18th in student performance? Are we, in fact, getting what we're paying for?

It's a mistake to compare the educational expenses in two countries based on GDP. It's sort of like comparing the driving prowess of two individuals based on their annual income. At best, it's an apples to oranges comparison.

I do get that your point is that we spend lots of money on education, yet we fall in the middle of the pack regarding performance. I'm sure that people much more highly qualified than you or I have very good ideas as to why that is the case. I seriously doubt it's because some schools elect not to teach cursive writing.

I don't think I quite agree with that -- it is a measure of how much of their wealth a country is willing to commit to education. We have a fairly large proportion by comparison to other nations.

If there were people much more highly qualified than you and I who had very good ideas on why, I think they would have fixed it by now. In the least I would think they would at least know how to fix it, That doesn't seem to be the case. It might be instructive that as near as I can learn most European countries still teach cursive.

 

[sbell111]

The biggest question regarding education of out time, is there any good reason why we should rank 1st among OECD nations in expenditures per student (about 45% above average), second behind Iceland in percentage of GDP spent on education and about 17th or 18th in student performance? Are we, in fact, getting what we're paying for?

It's a mistake to compare the educational expenses in two countries based on GDP. It's sort of like comparing the driving prowess of two individuals based on their annual income. At best, it's an apples to oranges comparison.

I do get that your point is that we spend lots of money on education, yet we fall in the middle of the pack regarding performance. I'm sure that people much more highly qualified than you or I have very good ideas as to why that is the case. I seriously doubt it's because some schools elect not to teach cursive writing.

I don't think I quite agree with that -- it is a measure of how much of their wealth a country is willing to commit to education. We have a fairly large proportion by comparison to other nations.

If there were people much more highly qualified than you and I who had very good ideas on why, I think they would have fixed it by now. In the least I would think they would at least know how to fix it, That doesn't seem to be the case. It might be instructive that as near as I can learn most European countries still teach cursive.

I don't know why I bother as it appears that you just want to argue and absolutely must have the last word, but here goes:

Regarding the bolded bit: Imagine that I make $200k per year and you make 100k. We both have daughters starting elementary school. We end up sending them both to the same private school which costs $18,100 annually. The fact that I am spending nine percent of my income on my daughter's education and you are spending 18% does not factor into whether or not the quality of our daughter's eduction differs.

Regarding the blue bit: I can only imagine that you are trying to overlay some kind of political argument over the issue of whether cursive is being taught in schools. I fail to see how you are making that connection and I have no interest in entering into a political argument with you.

 

[Smitty37]

The biggest question regarding education of out time, is there any good reason why we should rank 1st among OECD nations in expenditures per student (about 45% above average), second behind Iceland in percentage of GDP spent on education and about 17th or 18th in student performance? Are we, in fact, getting what we're paying for?

It's a mistake to compare the educational expenses in two countries based on GDP. It's sort of like comparing the driving prowess of two individuals based on their annual income. At best, it's an apples to oranges comparison.

I do get that your point is that we spend lots of money on education, yet we fall in the middle of the pack regarding performance. I'm sure that people much more highly qualified than you or I have very good ideas as to why that is the case. I seriously doubt it's because some schools elect not to teach cursive writing.

I don't think I quite agree with that -- it is a measure of how much of their wealth a country is willing to commit to education. We have a fairly large proportion by comparison to other nations.

If there were people much more highly qualified than you and I who had very good ideas on why, I think they would have fixed it by now. In the least I would think they would at least know how to fix it, That doesn't seem to be the case. It might be instructive that as near as I can learn most European countries still teach cursive.

I don't know why I bother as it appears that you just want to argue and absolutely must have the last word, but here goes:

Regarding the bolded bit: Imagine that I make $200k per year and you make 100k. We both have daughters starting elementary school. We end up sending them both to the same private school which costs $18,100 annually. The fact that I am spending nine percent of my income on my daughter's education and you are spending 18% does not factor into whether or not the quality of our daughter's eduction differs.

Regarding the blue bit: I can only imagine that you are trying to overlay some kind of political argument over the issue of whether cursive is being taught in schools. I fail to see how you are making that connection and I have no interest in entering into a political argument with you.

As usual, you try to make the discussion personal and question my motives and as usual you are wrong.

An ad hoc illustration of your daughter and mine is no argument at all in the context of nations education millions of children..

I do not argue that, we as a nation, are not committed. We spend more money in actual dollars per student and as a percentage of GDP than most. I am saying we're not very successful. Nothing political about that.

I happen to believe that we are not holding our own in education, because we are swiping with a broad brush without much paint on it and getting no depth.

I also believe that learning and using cursive writing adds some depth.

There is nothing political in pointing out facts that are provided by the governments involved (OECD is a government sponsored organization).

 

[DurocShark]

Schools around here have dropped cursive from the curriculum. "Not enough time in the day to teach an obsolete communication method..."

Unbelievable.

Happily my daughter's new 3rd grade teacher is teaching it anyway. He believes, like me, that different writing styles are important to developing communication and letter recognition skills.

I've been teaching her some cursive myself, but it's nice to have a teacher backing me up.

That said, I started all caps like Alex's boss. I got into that habit in high school when I took drafting.

 

[sbell111]

... There is nothing political in pointing out facts that are provided by the governments involved (OECD is a government sponsored organization).

Your issue has nothing to do either with teaching cursive writing in the classroom or the price of tea in China. The only reason to discuss the issue is to drag the thread further into the political realm when it need not go there.

The decision by some districts to not to teach cursive writing has nothing to do with the vast political conspiracy. It's simply a matter of ensuring that there is enough time to teach crucial materials.

(Go ahead and reply again. I know you can't resist getting that last word in.)

Schools around here have dropped cursive from the curriculum. "Not enough time in the day to teach an obsolete communication method..."

Unbelievable.

Happily my daughter's new 3rd grade teacher is teaching it anyway. He believes, like me, that different writing styles are important to developing communication and letter recognition skills.

I've been teaching her some cursive myself, but it's nice to have a teacher backing me up.

That said, I started all caps like Alex's boss. I got into that habit in high school when I took drafting.

If I were a parent in your district and my child's teacher was teaching things off-curriculum, I'd want that teacher canned. There is not enough days to teach those subjects that are important. Wasting time on other things is unacceptable.

 

[DurocShark]

If I were a parent in your district and my child's teacher was teaching things off-curriculum, I'd want that teacher canned. There is not enough days to teach those subjects that are important. Wasting time on other things is unacceptable.

Why? Are teachers supposed to be robots, teaching only what they're programmed to teach? Or should they use their experience and training to determine what, in addition to core curriculum, they can teach to enhance their students lives?

 

[OLDMAN5050]

Well let me tell you of an experience I had at McDonalds a while back. I ordered a breakfast and pint of milk. Just what I said 1 pint of milk. Now the girl responded that they did not have a pint only 1/2 pint. I had to explain to her that 2 halves make a whole............