"Turning ease or difficulty"

[ed4copies]

How would YOU develop a rating system?

I have thought about this for years and have not answered the question to my own satisfaction. So, let's see if we can derive a "group answer".

I would like to rate all the resins and wood. They could be two different systems (one for wood, one for resin) or one overall system. The system would have to apply to novice turners up through veterans.

It would be especially nice if we could give newer turners advice on what NOT to buy.

IDEAS???????????

Thanks.

 

[RustySplinters]

You could simply make a scale from 1-10

 

[Seer]

How aboutL
Wood
scale of 1 to 5 on hardness, finishing, stability
Acrylics
Scale of 1 to 5 for brittleness, finishing, machining etc
Divide all the numbers to get a rating that way

 

[ed4copies]

The problem is not figuring out a numbering or lettering system. What material would you consider the MOST difficult, and what is the LEAST. Where on that scale would you rate "alternate ebony" (using a recent example). OR, where would you rate Acrylic Acetate (AA), an industry-wide product?

 

[Kinger]

Wow I think you read my mind was just looking to ask something similar to this today, been looking at all the diff types of manmade stuff and didnt know where to start, Wood has been all ive tried thus far

 

[ed4copies]

Maybe we can all agree on this???
Easiest: Hard maple, with the grain--rating 1
Easiest to break (tricky to turn)--Inlace acrylester--rating 5

Now, rate Acrylic Acetate?

 

[avbill]

there is a article in the library call the Acrylic revolution that could answer some of the questions of difficultly. See:
http://www.penturners.org/forum/f139/iap-library-general-reference-77366/

 

[edicehouse]

1 to 5 seems a little to compact of a systems. 1 to 10 or even 100 would give you more options. And talk about very subjective.

 

[ed4copies]

1 to 5 seems a little to compact of a systems. 1 to 10 or even 100 would give you more options. And talk about very subjective.

There are no rules. So, pick your scale and rate a few materials. Then, let's see how many turners agree with your rating.

 

[Russianwolf]

in terms of woods, I'd say something like Rosewood (take your pick of which one) would be the easiest. Not prone to tearout, polishes nicely with no finish, accepts finishes with a wipe of acetone.


For manmade materials, PR is more chippy than most of the others, but once you get the hang of it finishing is a breeze with micromesh wet sanding.

 

[ed4copies]

in terms of woods, I'd say something like Rosewood (take your pick of which one) would be the easiest. Not prone to tearout, polishes nicely with no finish, accepts finishes with a wipe of acetone.


For manmade materials, PR is more chippy than most of the others, but once you get the hang of it finishing is a breeze with micromesh wet sanding.

Hey Mike-=-
Thanks for the input, but you do recall that PR will encompass Brooks blanks and inlace acrylester---they certainly do NOT turn the same. So, how would you make a rating system and where are these materials relative to AA.

Then, how are they, relative to Bog Oak? (different classification system??)

I honestly have been considering this problem for years ---I'd like to find a solution.

 

[tbroye]

I would rate Inlace Acrylester 20 to turn. If I even walk into the shop with sharpes tool possible it shaters before I can pick it up

 

[ed4copies]

I would rate inlace alester a 20 to turn.

Is that on a 1-10 scale??:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

 

[triw51]

I would go 1 to 10 giving you a little more lee way in the rating.

 

[ed4copies]

I would rate Inlace Acrylester 20 to turn. If I even walk into the shop with sharpes tool possible it shaters before I can pick it up

To Gerry Wilhite, who turns a lot of acrylester, he used it for his demonstration at the Midwest Pen Gathering. I have done a demo for the IAP using one half of the pen in Inlace acrylester, the other half in AA.
I believe Gerry rated it an 8.5 in his intro.
I rate it about a 9.

But, the first one I turned would definitely be a 20 on a scale of 1-10. The difference is experience. So, again, how do we make a rating system?

 

[Haynie]

The problem is rater subjectivity. You will need a lot of responses to overcome this.

Maybe a good way to get as close to an unbiased rating system as you could, would be to post a survey on your website or here for each substance. Have each question pertain to a different category you are interested in as a factor. You could do it through survey monkey or google to get quick results for each question.

 

[Russianwolf]

yeah, I'd probably say to keep the wood in a separate category. The properties being totally different. At least I've yet to come across a wood that was like any of the plastics. Granted a nice solid piece of Bog oak turns a lot better than a punky piece.

I don't know that I've ever turned AA, so don't think I can say on that one.

The problem with PR is that there are SOOOOO many variables that effect the properties. how much catalyst, what temp the ambient air is, what colorant was used, was it baked afterwards,etc. etc. Regardless of all that though, get in a rush and it tend to chip (those annoying little chips that are only a fraction of a mm deep) more than what I've seen on the Alumilite, ebonite, epoxy, etc. blanks.


Then we also need to figure out where things go like Ivory and other natural materials that aren't wood and don't act like anything else.

 

[Andrew_K99]

In the other post you said "I have no problem turning any plastic. So, if some think it is brittle, perhaps it is (for them).". You need to take "I" and "them" out of the equation and make it something measureable.

Trustone is often noted as being difficult to turn. Personally I don't think it is difficult at all, it just takes longer because the material is so hard.

One way to measure this might be a time test on how long it takes to round a blank (to say 15mm) without causing chips/blow outs/etc. Difficult materials will take more time (and patience/skill) whereas easier materials can be done in a rush. This should be done using the same tool(s), lathe, etc. to eliminate the variables.

Another option might be to send a survey with the blanks asking for feedback in a few different areas like ease of turning/drilling/finishing/etc. With enough subjective answers you should start to see a pattern of how difficult it is.

AK

 

[ed4copies]

The problem is rater subjectivity. You will need a lot of responses to overcome this.

Maybe a good way to get as close to an unbiased rating system as you could, would be to post a survey on your website or here for each substance. Have each question pertain to a different category you are interested in as a factor. You could do it through survey monkey or google to get quick results for each question.

This morning we found out we can ask for feedback on each product. We "turned that on". So, comments about alternative ebony, can now be posted immediately below the product. Maybe, as we get more comments we will be able to "standardize" them. But, we hope this is a start.

BTW, your comments will not be published immediately. We have to read and publish. This will NOT be used to eliminate negative comments, but it WILL be used to eliminate any offensive language.

We welcome input from those who have used the products.

 

[Russianwolf]

This will NOT be used to eliminate negative comments, but it WILL be used to eliminate any offensive language.

We welcome input from those who have used the products.

But I love those &%#$&!*$ blanks

ahem...... this coming from the guy that registered

eroticblanks.com :biggrin: ( i was going to use the one sticking his tongue out, but thought it might be misinterpreted.

 

[mredburn]

How high is up? I believe you may have better luck simply rating them for beginner, intermediate, experienced. How can you quantify the difficulty of turning a material without defining the experience and the tools needed to turn them. If you have basic hss tools wont some blanks be rated difficult to turn but a carbide tool would change that to a different rating?

 

[nativewooder]

I rate all tight-grained woods as #1. I believe we can know in advance what to expect with wood since it is a natural product. I don't like any of the plastic I have turned so far so to be generous I would rate them in bulk as 7 to 10. This is my $0.00 opinion!:biggrin:

 

[Dalecamino]

Might be able to rate the material according to how many passes you make before you adjust to it.

 

[David M]

Is the rating going to be using all the same tools , old school steel , most common hhs that I mostly use or carbin tipped tools . I dont know but the tool ,Who and how the tool was sharpnened could effect the scale also
David

 

[1080Wayne]

Didn`t know you had such grandiose ideas , Ed .

From a practical viewpoint , consider that there are perhaps 20-30 ? different families of plastics that could be turned versus several thousand ? species of wood . Some species of wood are definitely more difficult on average , but within any given species the variability due to knots , curl , spalt ,etc , etc can take you from comparatively easy to extremely difficult . I could give you a piece of ambrosia spalted and wormy maple to illustrate the difference .

Similarly within some plastics - copolymer type and %age , molecular weight , pigments and other fillers , plasticizers , etc , etc , can , will , or may influence turnability . One commonly mentioned variation on the forumb is that between different Truestones - none of which I have turned - , most probably due to filler type and %age .

Lastly , are the equipment differences referenced above . Carbide or HSS , skew , scraper or gouge , lathe speed , etc , all interact with the material being turned .

I understand the desire of a new turner for some general guidance to avoid major costly mistakes , but I think most accept that the fun in turning comes from the learning inherent in experimenting with the unknown .

How would YOU develop a rating system?



I would like to rate all the resins and wood. They could be two different systems (one for wood, one for resin) or one overall system. The system would have to apply to novice turners up through veterans .

 

[InvisibleMan]

I wouldn't bother, personally. But, if I had to come up with a system, it would be "beginner safe" or "not beginner safe". Then you can figure out how to handle the beginner who's all bent about blowing up the safe blank that obviously is not his fault.

How would YOU develop a rating system?

I have thought about this for years and have not answered the question to my own satisfaction. So, let's see if we can derive a "group answer".

I would like to rate all the resins and wood. They could be two different systems (one for wood, one for resin) or one overall system. The system would have to apply to novice turners up through veterans.

It would be especially nice if we could give newer turners advice on what NOT to buy.

IDEAS???????????

Thanks.

 

[ed4copies]

Didn`t know you had such grandiose ideas , Ed .

From a practical viewpoint , consider that there are perhaps 20-30 ? different families of plastics that could be turned versus several thousand ? species of wood . Some species of wood are definitely more difficult on average , but within any given species the variability due to knots , curl , spalt ,etc , etc can take you from comparatively easy to extremely difficult . I could give you a piece of ambrosia spalted and wormy maple to illustrate the difference .

Similarly within some plastics - copolymer type and %age , molecular weight , pigments and other fillers , plasticizers , etc , etc , can , will , or may influence turnability . One commonly mentioned variation on the forumb is that between different Truestones - none of which I have turned - , most probably due to filler type and %age .

Lastly , are the equipment differences referenced above . Carbide or HSS , skew , scraper or gouge , lathe speed , etc , all interact with the material being turned .

I understand the desire of a new turner for some general guidance to avoid major costly mistakes , but I think most accept that the fun in turning comes from the learning inherent in experimenting with the unknown .

How would YOU develop a rating system?



I would like to rate all the resins and wood. They could be two different systems (one for wood, one for resin) or one overall system. The system would have to apply to novice turners up through veterans .

Thanks Wayne!! I'm afraid calling it a plan is stretching----let's say it's a dream.

As to tools, I rarely find an advantage with any tool over my HSS skew. But I do believe we should acknowledge that each turner has his own "go-to" tool. Plastics CAN be scraped (encompassing the carbide tools) or it can be cut (skew or gouge, used appropriately for the material).

And yes, we would have to have an asterisk for all wood, with a disclaimer should you hit a knot!!!

But the question does come up, OFTEN. There should be SOME good answer.

Shouldn't there????????????

 

[GaryMGg]

Ed,

I applaud you for undertaking such a project.

My first thought is there's going to be a lot of subjectivity and many forms of http://www.penturners.org/forum/f18/ive-used-xxx-never-had-any-problems-98409/#post1410024 in the initial results.

There needs to be methods to (1) operationally define the terms used so that each and every individual responding has the same meaning for the same aspect of what is being described.
For example, I say "X is easy to turn provided your skew is sharp and you use a light touch."
What is sharp? Is out of the box sharp? Is anything less than 'slices hair off my arm' sharp? Is scary sharp the measure of sharp?"

Which leads us to the construct (2) there needs to be empirical measurablility such that turner A could replicate turner B's testimony that "X is difficult to turn".

Now, having proposed those two suggestions, I'd go further and suggest there needs to be (3) an indicator in the recorded data which states if the value is an opinion -- aka a subjective proposition -- or a measureable and quantified statement which may be treated as factual.

I'm not suggesting all subjective statements are bad.
I'm suggesting it's useful to know the difference as there are likely to be distinctions between the two.

IIRC, Phillywood attempted to capture facts and/or opinions about turning materials.
He may have valuable data to contribute to your effort.

 

[azamiryou]

Your system should depend on your goals. Is the system there to tell a turner how to approach the blank? Or is it there to give a potential buyer a hint as to whether it's within their skills to turn it?

For the former, you need a lot more detail. Commentary may be more useful than data.

For the latter, simpler is better - maybe just beginner/not beginner, with simple voting to categorize any you aren't sure about. Or a three step beginner/intermediate/advanced. Or something like:

• Easy - generally, any turner can turn it with whatever tools they are comfortable with
• Special Tool Needed - a blank that is much more difficult to turn if you don't have the appropriate tool(s). Recommended tool(s) should be specified
• Special Care Needed - a blank that can be turned with just about any tool, but extra care is needed during turning to avoid chipping, heat buildup, whatever.

Come to think of it, if you make "easy" the default, you really just need ways to flag items as needing special care or tools. For any you aren't sure, asking here or getting feedback from your customers would likely suffice.

Whatever the case, I think there are much more useful approaches than comparative data ("this is harder to turn than that").

 

[Timebandit]

Your system should depend on your goals. Is the system there to tell a turner how to approach the blank? Or is it there to give a potential buyer a hint as to whether it's within their skills to turn it?

For the former, you need a lot more detail. Commentary may be more useful than data.

For the latter, simpler is better - maybe just beginner/not beginner, with simple voting to categorize any you aren't sure about. Or a three step beginner/intermediate/advanced. Or something like:

• Easy - generally, any turner can turn it with whatever tools they are comfortable with
• Special Tool Needed - a blank that is much more difficult to turn if you don't have the appropriate tool(s). Recommended tool(s) should be specified
• Special Care Needed - a blank that can be turned with just about any tool, but extra care is needed during turning to avoid chipping, heat buildup, whatever.

Come to think of it, if you make "easy" the default, you really just need ways to flag items as needing special care or tools. For any you aren't sure, asking here or getting feedback from your customers would likely suffice.

Whatever the case, I think there are much more useful approaches than comparative data ("this is harder to turn than that").

I dont see this working, or really this whole thing other than to get opinions on materials. None of this will be factual. If we want that, then there needs to be lab tests and fracture tests, different tools used and all the other variables, like speed of you lathe or how much pressure you apply to the blank.

With your rating system, this just wont work. If you label items with "Need special tool" either people without the special tool wont buy the product, or they will think that they have to invest in some new special tool just to turn this material. Which is entirely untrue. Its like most people hate working Cebloplast and think its one of the hardest materials to work with. I on the other hand, dont have any trouble with it. Yes you have to slow down and go slower, but other than that, i see no issues with it. But this material would normally be considered by most to be a material for the advanced turner. I dont see it that way. This is all subjective and unless the people reading the comment on exotics know the people making the comments, how can we know its not a newbie whos first material was Cebloplast and therefore doesnt know how to work it properly and then makes a comment like "This is the worst material in the world to work with".....this is opinion and we have no way of knowing the variables in his turning.

Ed,
If you are going to do this, i think you need to do some sort of pole on each material you want and then post your findings on each material on your site, not have 11,000 pen turners putting nothing more than there opinions of materials, which might actually deter buyers. Putting "Care must be taken when working Ceblopast to make sure you dont overheat it or it will melt" is helpful. "I think this is the worst material for pen making because i had trouble drilling it, turning it, glueing it, and finishing it" isnt going to help anything. This person had a bad experience, but it doesnt have anything to do with this material, as many others use it just fine. Just like you said, you have been using Alt. Ebony for years without problem, but Shawn hates it and cant figure out why it is even made. This has nothing to do with the material, unless it was a bad batch from the manufacturer.

 

[1080Wayne]

Didn`t know you had such grandiose ideas , Ed .

From a practical viewpoint , consider that there are perhaps 20-30 ? different families of plastics that could be turned versus several thousand ? species of wood . Some species of wood are definitely more difficult on average , but within any given species the variability due to knots , curl , spalt ,etc , etc can take you from comparatively easy to extremely difficult . I could give you a piece of ambrosia spalted and wormy maple to illustrate the difference .

Similarly within some plastics - copolymer type and %age , molecular weight , pigments and other fillers , plasticizers , etc , etc , can , will , or may influence turnability . One commonly mentioned variation on the forumb is that between different Truestones - none of which I have turned - , most probably due to filler type and %age .

Lastly , are the equipment differences referenced above . Carbide or HSS , skew , scraper or gouge , lathe speed , etc , all interact with the material being turned .

I understand the desire of a new turner for some general guidance to avoid major costly mistakes , but I think most accept that the fun in turning comes from the learning inherent in experimenting with the unknown .

How would YOU develop a rating system?



I would like to rate all the resins and wood. They could be two different systems (one for wood, one for resin) or one overall system. The system would have to apply to novice turners up through veterans .

Thanks Wayne!! I'm afraid calling it a plan is stretching----let's say it's a dream.

As to tools, I rarely find an advantage with any tool over my HSS skew. But I do believe we should acknowledge that each turner has his own "go-to" tool. Plastics CAN be scraped (encompassing the carbide tools) or it can be cut (skew or gouge, used appropriately for the material).

And yes, we would have to have an asterisk for all wood, with a disclaimer should you hit a knot!!!

But the question does come up, OFTEN. There should be SOME good answer.

Shouldn't there????????????

NOPE!! The search for black or white answers leads to heartache . Best to enjoy the shades of gray .

 

[Ankrom Exotics]

Something like:

Beginner
advanced beginner
intermediate
advanced
expert

 

[Kinger]

Something like:

Beginner
advanced beginner
intermediate
advanced
expert

Oh no Centerville huh, hows the "spur" doing these days

 

[BSea]

1st off, I don't think any system for rating would be perfect. But some feedback is better than no feedback. This is especially true for beginners. What if a beginner wanted to buy a black trustone blank for his 1st pen? Would it really matter if on a scale of 1 to 10 it was rated a 8 or a 10 as far as difficulty? Either way the beginner would probably opt for something easier to start, and not be frustrated with the 1st thing he/she tried. So in that respect it would be very useful even if we all don't agree 100%.

As far as the level of detail, again, I don't think that's all that important. snakewood isn't all that difficult to turn, but is is difficult to get a successful pen without cracking. Ebony is easy to turn, but is a real pain to finish (at least for me). And black trustone with gold weave is about the most difficult thing I've done so far. So on a difficulty level, they are all in the 8 to 10 range IMHO regardless as to what they are made of.

So I really like the idea of a rating system. Because so far I haven't turned everything, and a source based on the experience of other turners would be beneficial to almost everyone at some time or another.

 

[Smitty37]

Interesting discussion but methinks don Quixote lives again.:tongue:

 

[Smitty37]

Seriously

I will preface this by saying, I think at least in the case of wood you are talking about a nearly impossible task....the plastics maybe a little less so but still daunting.

If it were me I would first - scale back the project and get it sized to where you can have a realistic chance of finishing it.

Select a few of the more common woods or more common plastics. Not a lot. See what you can come up with for a manageable sample size. Try it for awhile (maybe a year or so) and collect feedback. Then make adjustments and get more feedback.

My projection is that you're talking about a 2 - 4 year time frame to have something that's very useful.

 

[watch_art]

I think having an option where the person giving feedback can tell how long they've been turning. I would put 6 months and then my comments and ratings. Maybe a link to some of my work? Somebody else could come in and see my time at the lathe, see my work, and then decide if they think my opinion is valid or a joke. If somebody with 10 years experience says this and this, then maybe you could deduce that the guy with only 6 months is just inexperienced and is still learning. Of course that would depend on people being totally honest with that part, but I think it would be a helpful meter for people reading the reviews and comments.

 

[DestinTurnings]

I think the subjective rating system would be better than a hard number. Inlace Acrylester is actualy my favorite "plastic" to turn. It cuts like butter compared to Acrylic...especially if homecast. Plus it doesn't warp from heat if you cut really close to the tubes.

That being said, when I first turned some, I got so frustrated I put a hole in the wall with a piece of a blank and another one from my fist shortly there after.

Definitely a more advanced turning medium.

 

[reiddog1]

I like the beginner to expert scale myself. Maybe even a small green to red scale with a little arrow pointing out the difficulty. I've seen that type scale many times in some wood working magazines and it seems to work well with me. I think that some of us are getting wrapped around the axle on the pinpoint accuracy of the difficulty of the material. IMHO, I would use this as a guide that could easily slide a measurement or two. Fact is even the same materials could change from blank to blank. Just my .02. Good luck either way Ed.

Dave

 

[EricJS]

Ed, maybe there are too many variables for a consistent 1 tier rating system.

You could pick 2 or 3 variables and rate them. Example:

Hardness (1-5)
Brittleness (1-5)